228 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Grimy and I have been talking about routes to elegantly balance the game, and another suggestion came up besides the Assault Rifle thing.  One thing that came up is the issue that sniper rifles in general aren't terribly useful on non-Infiltrators in large part because of the 1.4x damage bonus Infiltrators get with them (which unlike most other percentage bonuses in the game is actually a multiplier rather than additive), and that the main problem with the Krysae is that, well, making a sniper rifle that's great for eveyone is pretty crazy for Infiltrators because of Tac Cloak Rank 6 being a multiplier rather than an additive bonus like almost every other weapon damage bonus.

What if Rank 6 Tactical Cloak didn't give a 1.4x damage multiplier, but instead a 1.1x multiplier (which is still more than a 40% ADDITIVE damage bonus, which is what all
other tac cloak damage bonuses are, if you work out the math) and allowed sniper rifles to bypass the shield gate only on headshots, along with sniper rifles in general (not the Krysae) getting damage buffs to compensate (and become more genuinely useful for every non-infiltrator)?

After all, as is there's not much reward for not getting a bodyshot with a Widow or Javelin out of cloak.

What this does:
-Changes sniper rifle damage bonus for full damage spec Infiltrator to ~230% instead of about 300%
-Buffs sniper rifle damage, compensating somewhat for the lost SR damage.
-Actually gives a boost to infiltrators using slow single shot snipers.
-Rewards
headshots for sniper rifles that previously didn't really reward
headshots (Because the Widow and Javelin would just do overflow damage)
-Makes the Krysae cease to outclass all other sniper rifles.
-Makes sniper rifles in general more viable and worth their weight on non-Infiltrators.
-Makes the Tactical Cloak tooltip less misleading (as is it presents itself as the same kind of bonus as other weapon damage bonuses, and it's not).

Talhydras wrote...

Not a bad idea at all. Loading all the reward onto the headshot would be a fun way to further reward the accuracy and surgical precision infiltrators are supposed to be about.

But you'd have to do some number crunching I think; it'd be good if there was still some reason to use the valiant/BW in a universe where headshots from widows and javs can punch through the shield gate on gold.

Grimy and I are talking about crunching the numbers right now

I don't think it would threaten the role of the BW though, which still allows you to take down multiple targets more quickly (especially since the shield gate bypass thing only applies to cloaked shots), and don't have much less DPS on bosses, and are better at applying ammo effects (I think... don't have exact mechanics on how ammo effect applications to go on, only lots of testing).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 juin 2012 - 01:55 .

[Talhydras]

An additional thought: a general SR buff of unknown magnitude might finally allow the Raptor to outshine the Mattock and Vindy and bring the Viper within shouting distance of the Carnifex. I'm not really sure if either of those effects are good or bad honestly.

The Viper's always struck me as a total lemon, but that's in part because it was my crutch in ARush back in ME2. My only memories of using it are stopping time and choosing the slain. I dunno if I can form anything like a useful opinion on that.

The Mattock on the other hand seems like it's struggling to remain relevant - any big boost to the raptor might simply make both the mattock and vindicator into paperweights, hmm...

[GodlessPaladin]

Talhydras wrote...

An additional thought: a general SR buff of unknown magnitude might finally allow the Raptor to outshine the Mattock and Vindy and bring the Viper within shouting distance of the Carnifex. I'm not really sure if either of those effects are good or bad honestly.

The Viper's always struck me as a total lemon, but that's in part because it was my crutch in ARush back in ME2. My only memories of using it are stopping time and choosing the slain. I dunno if I can form anything like a useful opinion on that.

The Mattock on the other hand seems like it's struggling to remain relevant - any big boost to the raptor might simply make both the mattock and vindicator into paperweights, hmm...

  The Mattock and Vindy aren't exactly stellar, though.  For many they're already paperweights.  That said, we're actually talking about doing a big collaborative post with general balance changes (just for the sake of a fun game design thought exercise) and buffs to most ARs are already on the table.  So is making the other Tac Cloak Rank 4 evolution (not the 40% damage one) actually a worthwhile choice rather than something everybody passes over.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[Talhydras]

That would be a neat trick. Something like, extending the duration of cloak AND the decloak weapons damage bonus? That would allow you to pick the standard 40% evolution for Ye Olde sniper/shotgun infiltrator, or a longer cloak/ longer buff infy that uses SMGs and other rapid fire weapons...

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
The Mattock and Vindy aren't exactly stellar, though.  For many they're already paperweights.  That said, we're actually talking about doing a big collaborative post with general balance changes (just for the sake of a fun game design thought exercise) and buffs to most ARs are already on the table.  So is making the other Tac Cloak Rank 4 evolution (not the 40% damage one) actually a worthwhile choice rather than something everybody passes over.

Hopefully you take the weight mechanic seriously and make heavier weapons more effective than lighter ones... and not leave the Carnifex and Paladin as the best all around weapons in the game.

As for the original idea, this would not work.  The problem is that the Krysae stats do not jive with anything except other over powered weapons, and it is only "rare" as well.

Modifié par capn233, 02 juin 2012 - 02:10 .

[Maria Caliban]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

So is making the other Tac Cloak Rank 4 evolution (not the 40% damage one) actually a worthwhile choice rather than something everybody passes over.

Looking forward to this. I recall asking how they might make it something worthwhile in another thread, but no one replied with suggestions.

[Blind2Society]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You hav to realize this gun makes the black widow seem underpowered.

Why can't there be a sniper better than the black widow?



And just for the record, are you asking for this change because you used it and didn't like how much crap you could kill with it or were you simply jelly of someone else on your team killing more crap than you?

[Talhydras]

Blind2Society wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You hav to realize this gun makes the black widow seem underpowered.

Why can't there be a sniper better than the black widow?

Oh we can have a sniper better than the BW, it just has to be either higher rarity or harder to use than the black widow.

Krysae is more common and intelligently airbursts, making it easier to use than the BW in most situations as you can shoot over the target's shoulder and get full damage, where with the BW if you shoot over their shoulder you do no damage. In extreme lag games, though, all bets are off with the Krysae - but extreme lag games aren't a balancing point, because they make vanguards fly and grabbed enemies immortal.

[soldo9149]

Make it a bloody assault rifle. Most of them are horrible to use and are better off as paper weights.

[Snake241079]

My only issue with it is the random uncloaking that it does to my gi when I use it. I'll go to cloak after firing it and end up decloaking immediately after I cloak. Some sort of glitch I think.

[vironblood]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What if Rank 6 Tactical Cloak didn't give a 1.4x damage multiplier, but instead a 1.1x multiplier (which is still more than a 40% ADDITIVE damage bonus, which is what all
other tac cloak damage bonuses are, if you work out the math) and allowed sniper rifles to bypass the shield gate only on headshots, along with sniper rifles in general (not the Krysae) getting damage buffs to compensate (and become more genuinely useful for every non-infiltrator)?

Your suggestion (in this current form) makes the infiltrator class unbalanced. Between the tactical cloak bonuses, headshot damage multiplier and skill/gear bonuses infiltrators armed with a javelin/widow will OHKO any unit susceptible to headshots (most importantly Phantoms and Pyros). The gold exclusive shield gate loses its purpose only for infiltrators. They needed a buff right?

They should rather fix cloak (a poorly balanced ability) so it shouldn't:
1) apply the damage bonus to both shots and abilities when used in quick succession (rank 6 bonus power is useless) -> no more proxy claymore GI with 4 ranks in cloak;
2) randomly deactivate after 1 sec (without shooting or using a power);
3) have a near useless rank 4 duration bonus competing with the awesome 0.4 damage mutiplier;

But what is more convenient: trying to re-balance a class (+bugfixes) or just changing a weapon's statistics?

Headshots (especially on bosses) are another issue altogether. Skill is rewarded with bonus damage when shooting the head of a marauder/rocket trooper but we get nothing for the heads of brutes/banshees/primes. What is the purpose of the rank 5 headshots in the class-specific tree?

Modifié par vironblood, 02 juin 2012 - 03:18 .

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Grimy and I have been talking about routes to elegantly balance the game, and another suggestion came up besides the Assault Rifle thing.  One thing that came up is the issue that sniper rifles in general aren't terribly useful on non-Infiltrators in large part because of the 1.4x damage bonus Infiltrators get with them (which unlike most other percentage bonuses in the game is actually a multiplier rather than additive), and that the main problem with the Krysae is that, well, making a sniper rifle that's great for eveyone is pretty crazy for Infiltrators because of Tac Cloak Rank 6 being a multiplier rather than an additive bonus like almost every other weapon damage bonus.

What if Rank 6 Tactical Cloak didn't give a 1.4x damage multiplier, but instead a 1.1x multiplier (which is still more than a 40% ADDITIVE damage bonus, which is what all
other tac cloak damage bonuses are, if you work out the math) and allowed sniper rifles to bypass the shield gate only on headshots, along with sniper rifles in general (not the Krysae) getting damage buffs to compensate (and become more genuinely useful for every non-infiltrator)?

After all, as is there's not much reward for not getting a bodyshot with a Widow or Javelin out of cloak.

What this does:
-Changes sniper rifle damage bonus for full damage spec Infiltrator to ~230% instead of about 300%
-Buffs sniper rifle damage, compensating somewhat for the lost SR damage.
-Actually gives a boost to infiltrators using slow single shot snipers.
-Rewards
headshots for sniper rifles that previously didn't really reward
headshots (Because the Widow and Javelin would just do overflow damage)
-Makes the Krysae cease to outclass all other sniper rifles.
-Makes sniper rifles in general more viable and worth their weight on non-Infiltrators.
-Makes the Tactical Cloak tooltip less misleading (as is it presents itself as the same kind of bonus as other weapon damage bonuses, and it's not).

I totally approve of this idea.  It's clear that currently Tactical Cloak is exceedingly overpowered, and it would be much better to refine it rather thans outright nerf it.  

It also reminds me of one of the things I think would help balance the Kyrsae.  Namely doing away with its ability to bypass shield gating.  Combined with its inability to get headshots, I don't even think it would need to be changed to an AR with this change, because it just wouldn't really benefit from Tactical Cloak bonuses as much.

[GodlessPaladin]

Removing bypassing shield gating on the Krysae would be an option, although it would seem inconsistent with how other explosive weapons work.

vironblood wrote...
Your suggestion (in this current form) makes the infiltrator class unbalanced.

  Maybe.  It's not like we settled on this or are attached to the idea or anything.  It was just one thing that came up in our discussions and was curious what people thought.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 juin 2012 - 03:49 .

[Atheosis]

vironblood wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

What if Rank 6 Tactical Cloak didn't give a 1.4x damage multiplier, but instead a 1.1x multiplier (which is still more than a 40% ADDITIVE damage bonus, which is what all
other tac cloak damage bonuses are, if you work out the math) and allowed sniper rifles to bypass the shield gate only on headshots, along with sniper rifles in general (not the Krysae) getting damage buffs to compensate (and become more genuinely useful for every non-infiltrator)?

Your suggestion (in this current form) makes the infiltrator class unbalanced. Between the tactical cloak bonuses, headshot damage multiplier and skill/gear bonuses infiltrators armed with a javelin/widow will OHKO any unit susceptible to headshots (most importantly Phantoms and Pyros). The gold exclusive shield gate loses its purpose only for infiltrators. They needed a buff right?

They should rather fix cloak (a poorly balanced ability) so it shouldn't:
1) apply the damage bonus to both shots and abilities when used in quick succession (rank 6 bonus power is useless) -> no more proxy claymore GI with 4 ranks in cloak;
2) randomly deactivate after 1 sec (without shooting or using a power);
3) have a near useless rank 4 duration bonus competing with the awesome 0.4 damage mutiplier;

But what is more convenient: trying to re-balance a class (+bugfixes) or just changing a weapon's statistics?

Headshots (especially on bosses) are another issue altogether. Skill is rewarded with bonus damage when shooting the head of a marauder/rocket trooper but we get nothing for the heads of brutes/banshees/primes. What is the purpose of the rank 5 headshots in the class-specific tree?

This isn't about what's more convenient.  This is about balancing a weapon so that it isn't only good with one class like every other sniper rifle.  And what they suggested would deal with that and improve sniper rifles in general with non-Infiltrators.  Seeing as the biggest issue right now is that headshots don't really even matter with Infiltrators most of the time, I think it would be an overall improvement, but like all balance ideas it would need testing.

As far as your numbered points go, I agree with all three, especially the power bonus that TC gives.  That's something that has never made any sense to me, and only further makes TC absurdly overpowered.

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Removing bypassing shield gating on the Krysae would be an option, although it would seem inconsistent with how other explosive weapons work.

Not an issue.  It should be removed on all of them.  Then you buff the weaker explosive weapons to compensate.  Allowing aoe weapons to benefit from Infiltrator bonuses and have shield gate bypassing just causes too many issues.

[eldrjth]

I think they made the infil too dps'y compared to other classes. they shouldve boosted the dmg bonus a human soldier gets from adrenalin rush and a tuarian soldier gets from marksman and a vorcha gets from blood lust and so forth, so there are viable alternatives other than infil if you want to wield a weapon and top the scoreboard at the same time.

additionally tech skills need to be improved so they can compete with biotics. one thing to consider though is casting an ability is far easier than it is to get a headshot and they need to take into account not everyone is able to headshot with proficiency so if they start toning down weapons like sniper rifles that are dependent on HS like the valiant it becomes mediocre to most players.

where I think they should have changed the ability based classes is make their combos easier to achieve without being interrupted by: kill-stealing and others tech/biotics spoiling it. it should also not have to rely on another biotic on the team to be effective nor be balanced around it. infact all classes should be balanced around individual play imo and teamplay potential nerfed. so the dmg and radius of biotics should be reduced but the CD be far quicker so a single player is able to detonate his own abilities easily without another player interfering. 

imo the jack of all trades classes such as sentinel dont really have a place unless theyre primarily weapon focused and use their abilities for specific dmg based task such as aoe shield stripping or anti-armour. utility based abilities and those that only boost tanking will end up decreasing dps so should not be lumped with the sentinel though its been that way since ME2.

in other words more classes need to be viable when using a weapon instead of just the infil at the moment. the soldier should be its equal at least when using a sustained fire weapon.

Modifié par eldrjth, 02 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[Blind2Society]

Talhydras wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You hav to realize this gun makes the black widow seem underpowered.

Why can't there be a sniper better than the black widow?

Oh we can have a sniper better than the BW, it just has to be either higher rarity or harder to use than the black widow.

Krysae is more common and intelligently airbursts, making it easier to use than the BW in most situations as you can shoot over the target's shoulder and get full damage, where with the BW if you shoot over their shoulder you do no damage. In extreme lag games, though, all bets are off with the Krysae - but extreme lag games aren't a balancing point, because they make vanguards fly and grabbed enemies immortal.

Well, if it did more damage but was harder to use (or vise versa) it wouldn't be better now would it? It would just be different. So what you're saying is, no there shouldn't be a better sniper than the BW, right?

[5_Mania]

The 'Sniper' designation went long out the window soon after the Indra released as merely a low-powered scoped assault rifle, along with the Raptor as a Mattock conveniently fitted with a scope.

Likewise, the Krysae is conveniently scoped nade launcher, or a scoped Striker or Falcon minus the larger magazine size they offer.

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Removing bypassing shield gating on the Krysae would be an option, although it would seem inconsistent with how other explosive weapons work.

Not an issue.  It should be removed on all of them.  Then you buff the weaker explosive weapons to compensate.  Allowing aoe weapons to benefit from Infiltrator bonuses and have shield gate bypassing just causes too many issues.

That would make sense.  It's not like they have any particular need to bypass the shield gate, and it would be consistent with the flavor of, say, Atlas missiles being stopped by player shield gates.

[Atheosis]

eldrjth wrote...

I think they made the infil too dps'y compared to other classes. they shouldve boosted the dmg bonus a human soldier gets from adrenalin rush and a tuarian soldier gets from marksman and a vorcha gets from blood lust and so forth, so there are viable alternatives other than infil if you want to wield a weapon and top the scoreboard at the same time.

Human and Turian Soldiers do the kind of DPS that is good yet balanced.  They don't need to be buffed into the same realm of absurdity as Infiltrators.

Modifié par Atheosis, 02 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Blind2Society]

5_Mania wrote...

The 'Sniper' designation went long out the window soon after the Indra released as merely a low-powered scoped assault rifle, along with the Raptor as a Mattock conveniently fitted with a scope.

Likewise, the Krysae is conveniently scoped nade launcher, or a scoped Striker or Falcon minus the larger magazine size they offer.

Well, unfortunately for you, that's the way it works. You put a long distance scope on a rifle and snipe things at long distance and it then becomes a sniper rifle.

And the Krysae isn't a grenade launcher, it's a rifle with explosive ammunition. They have explosive rounds for heavy sniper rifles today.

[Havocmasta]

I just really, really, REALLY hope that Mr. Fagnan and the rest of the balance team are taking notes from this thread. You guys are on to some seriously good ideas.

[Emzx19]

Everything ws fine as is when it was put into the game. The game itself was fine on release. It's people like you that complain about crap saying "it's too easy" or "it's OP" that ruin the game. Do the rest of us a favor and don't bother coming back to the forums.

[GodlessPaladin]

Emzx19 wrote...

Everything ws fine as is when it was put into the game. The game itself was fine on release. It's people like you that complain about crap saying "it's too easy" or "it's OP" that ruin the game. Do the rest of us a favor and don't bother coming back to the forums.

Somehow, I don't think everyone on this forum would see it as the favor you would.

Havocmasta wrote...

I just really, really, REALLY hope
that Mr. Fagnan and the rest of the balance team are taking notes from
this thread. You guys are on to some seriously good ideas.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 juin 2012 - 04:05 .

[Atheosis]

Emzx19 wrote...

The game itself was fine on release.

Not even Bioware thinks this.  Thus the dozens of changes they've made since then.