278 réponses à ce sujet

[Funkdrspot]

Tabo-xx, my sentence structure is messed up b/c I'm on an android and it doesn't like the format of the regular reply.

[GothicLez]

Way too much to read and I would end up making the same post anyways.

The Normandy can barely make it across a single nebula before running out of fuel... and it has been stated that the Normandy is a very unique and very SMALL ship... implying that it has probably the best fuel efficiency of any ship out there.

We can assume that every refueling station has been destroyed since even the remote ones are gone while playing the campaign... but even if they weren't there is the fact that the space in between systems is incredibly vast and incredibly empty... meaning there aren't any fuel sources.

In conclusion.. FTL travel is useless because the distances of empty space are too great and there is no way to refuel while traveling such distances.

[Patchwork]

GothicLez wrote...


The Normandy can barely make it across a single nebula before running out of fuel... and it has been stated that the Normandy is a very unique and very SMALL ship... implying that it has probably the best fuel efficiency of any ship out there.

Game mechanic. The SR-1 travelled the same distances without having to re-fuel ever.

[Funkdrspot]

shaani, I completely agree with what you stated. too many emotionally charged people trying to create reasons to hate the end. The reality is that they can't stand the destruction of the mass relays because it injects instability into the very heart of the story they love, so they create reasons why it shouldn't work and demand a completely new ending.

As it stands, the issues of galactic travel, a galactic darkage, starvation and the citadel entering the atmosphere have already been dealt with but they keep coming up b/c its not an issue of logic for some people.

[NS Wizdum]

Funkdrspot wrote...

shaani, I completely agree with what you stated. too many emotionally charged people trying to create reasons to hate the end. The reality is that they can't stand the destruction of the mass relays because it injects instability into the very heart of the story they love, so they create reasons why it shouldn't work and demand a completely new ending.

As it stands, the issues of galactic travel, a galactic darkage, starvation and the citadel entering the atmosphere have already been dealt with but they keep coming up b/c its not an issue of logic for some people.

I'm going to assume you are still trolling, unless you actually explain any of this.

[GothicLez]

Ser Bard wrote...

GothicLez wrote...


The Normandy can barely make it across a single nebula before running out of fuel... and it has been stated that the Normandy is a very unique and very SMALL ship... implying that it has probably the best fuel efficiency of any ship out there.

Game mechanic. The SR-1 travelled the same distances without having to re-fuel ever.

Ahh...   yes I still like to believe that the guns don't require thermal clips myself.

Was there a codex entry in ME1 about the lack of a fuel requirement for FTL travel?

[Shaani]

Funkdrspot wrote...

shaani, I completely agree with what you stated. too many emotionally charged people trying to create reasons to hate the end. The reality is that they can't stand the destruction of the mass relays because it injects instability into the very heart of the story they love, so they create reasons why it shouldn't work and demand a completely new ending.

As it stands, the issues of galactic travel, a galactic darkage, starvation and the citadel entering the atmosphere have already been dealt with but they keep coming up b/c its not an issue of logic for some people.

Thank you.

There's still no excuse for snapping at people who disagree.

[Funkdrspot]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

shaani, I completely agree with what you stated. too many emotionally charged people trying to create reasons to hate the end. The reality is that they can't stand the destruction of the mass relays because it injects instability into the very heart of the story they love, so they create reasons why it shouldn't work and demand a completely new ending.

As it stands, the issues of galactic travel, a galactic darkage, starvation and the citadel entering the atmosphere have already been dealt with but they keep coming up b/c its not an issue of logic for some people.

I'm going to assume you are still trolling, unless you actually explain any of this.

i was never trolling, that was just a nice neat label to place on me so you could marginalize my opinion. i actually made 2 threads explaining some of these things and the retakers just left when i started talking physics and chirality.

[The Angry One]

Ser Bard wrote...

GothicLez wrote...


The Normandy can barely make it across a single nebula before running out of fuel... and it has been stated that the Normandy is a very unique and very SMALL ship... implying that it has probably the best fuel efficiency of any ship out there.

Game mechanic. The SR-1 travelled the same distances without having to re-fuel ever.

Actually the lack of fuel in ME1 was a game mechanic; fuel depots are part of the lore.

[PsyrenY]

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

no u

Is all I'm reading. Oh well, moving along, nothing to see here.

which proves my point. its all you hear b/c youtre too emotionally invested for it to be otherwise. so we can try to paint eachother as purposely obtuse but ill stack my record against yours any day. every thread youre in youre infecting with your constant negativity and repetition of "space magic" or "artistic integrity". when people prove you wrong you just leave and reappear later, having learned nothing. your anger has turned you into a troll.

*thunderous applause*

[Wulfram]

As for fuel:
Fuel is cheap. Regular He3 stuff that is, not fancy military anti-protons.  There's reference to "skimmer ships" that can gather hydrogen and oxygen from anywhere in the universe.
The Normandy is likely designed for speed not endurance. And of course the in game representation is very obviously abstracted - you don't have to spend half the voyage flying backwards as you slow down, for example.

Ships designed for long journeys would obviously be different. Maybe you'd want to strip out all the weapons and shields and stuff from the Destiny Ascension and turn it into one huge fuel tank. Or switch to the "extremely efficient" but slow Ion drives used by automated cargo barges.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 juin 2012 - 12:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

You know that is like saying roads are a crutch or that cars are a crutch but the truth is without them getting anywhere takes a twenty times as long. For a world built around that infustructure its sudden removal would lead to the death of billons (any non-self sufficient collony for starters).

Any non-self sufficient cluster.

While there's this tendency to treat the Mass Relays like the roads of the galaxy with highly specialized production centers across the galaxy, that's really not the case. From the planet scans we see, most raw materials trade doesn't go through relays: they are 'local', derived from nearby systems in the same cluster. Helium fuel, for example, or space-age metals. There are a number of planet scans going on about how proximity to a planet is what makes those worthwile to harvest.

This speaks against 'all resources from sector X come from sector Y' economy, which is kind of required for the nigh-apocolyptic outcomes the most pessimistic insist on. Take food: one of the frequent claims is that without the Mass Relays, everyone in the galaxy will starve.

But where in the world do we get the idea that food is shipped across the relays? There are precious few mentions of food as an economy: just about one story in CDN, which was about a military food source that was close to a druggie addiction. Otherwise? Nothing in the lore suggests that food production isn't cluster-based. Besides local garden worlds, and those hydrophics such as the Quarians, there are lore-based sound reasons for self-sufficient clusters even when the relays are active. Threats of blockade, quarantine, and otherwise would justify it.


While the galactic political order is based around the Mass Relays, that's because Mass Relays offer limited high-speed mobility corridors, which by transferring high-value individuals and military can build and keep a galactic order. The galactic economy, however, is nowhere near as centralized. It can't be, simply due to clogging of relays.

[Dean_the_Young]

Flyprdu wrote...
[*]Fuel and speed limitations of FTL,

Can be overcome with logistics (re-organizing how you supply yourself, rather than rely on the old standards) and time (longer periods at slower speeds).

[*]discharging requirements, (A ship cannot discharge in deep space)

Besides that the Reapers prove there is a technological work-around for this, this can be solved by scouting more systems while making more trade routes, looking for good drop-off planets.

[*]as well as other considerations such as the dangers of traveling through uncharted space, and

Traveling through uncharted space is something every species has done, does, and has the ability to do as well. Charting space isn't a technological problem in the ME universe.

[*]relativistic time dilation,

Does not apply in any Mass Effect medium.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

no u

Is all I'm reading. Oh well, moving along, nothing to see here.

which proves my point. its all you hear b/c youtre too emotionally invested for it to be otherwise. so we can try to paint eachother as purposely obtuse but ill stack my record against yours any day. every thread youre in youre infecting with your constant negativity and repetition of "space magic" or "artistic integrity". when people prove you wrong you just leave and reappear later, having learned nothing. your anger has turned you into a troll.

*thunderous applause*

When trolls call me a troll it gratifies me; it proves I'm not.
By all means, continue.

Wulfram wrote...

As for fuel:
Fuel is cheap. Regular
He3 stuff that is, not fancy military anti-protons.  There's reference
to "skimmer ships" that can gather hydrogen and oxygen from anywhere in
the universe.
The Normandy is likely designed for speed not
endurance. And of course the in game representation is very obviously
abstracted - you don't have to spend half the voyage flying backwards as
you slow down, for example.

Bulk fuel is gathered by dedicated collector stations in orbit. Which have, you know, all been blown up by the Reapers.

Ships designed for long journeys
would obviously be different. Maybe you'd want to strip out all the
weapons and shields and stuff from the Destiny Ascension and turn it
into one huge fuel tank.

Yes and while they're at it they can stick a giant sign on the bow that says "PIRATE ME".

Or switch to the "extremely efficient" but
slow Ion drives used by automated cargo barges.

Because I'm sure they brought automated barges with them to Sol for no particular reason.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 juin 2012 - 12:35 .

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

no u

Is all I'm reading. Oh well, moving along, nothing to see here.

which proves my point. its all you hear b/c youtre too emotionally invested for it to be otherwise. so we can try to paint eachother as purposely obtuse but ill stack my record against yours any day. every thread youre in youre infecting with your constant negativity and repetition of "space magic" or "artistic integrity". when people prove you wrong you just leave and reappear later, having learned nothing. your anger has turned you into a troll.

*thunderous applause*

LOL

Such nonsense. You do the exact same thing. You run away like a pregnant cat whenever you're threatened. You're no less ****y than she is. You insult just as often as we do.

We're all in the same boat.

[Evenjelith]

Shaani wrote...

Agreed, but the network itself is not entirely mapped.  There are dormant mass relays, and we don't know where they lead to, or if the relays on the other side are active and lead to still more places.  Only the Reapers ever know for sure how big the network is, since they seem to respond negatively to people getting too curious about the dormant relays (see: the Rachni War).

Also, my theory is that the Reapers move them around to wherever life is going to spring up eventually before departing.  The Charon relay could have been planted there in the early stages of life on Earth, for spaient life to eventually discover and use.

I don't think anyone is disputing this at all. The relays were made by the Reapers and placed in key systems throughout the galaxy with the potential for supporting life. They are a form of control as they make getting around the galaxy infinitely easier; as such developed species spread in proximity to them which makes the eventual harvesting by the Reapers easier. It also lets the reapers cut off galactic travel almost instantly (though for some reason they didn't do this in ME3 once they had the citadel?!??!)

We agree on what they are but they are not in themselves an evil that we are better off without in my opinion. If the Reapers arn't in the picture then then the Relays are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Shaani wrote...

FTL stinks because the Reapers designed it to stink. They designed it to stink so that people would depend on the relay network. There's nothing saying that a non-stinky alternative won't be found eventually; it's only a matter of if they can establish a stable society in the area of space around Earth and it's closest stars until that time comes. 

I believe they can.

 

There is no problem depending on the Relay network so long as the Reapers arn't around. You seem to be arguing that if we could just develop non-Relay FTL things would be so much better. Why? Relay FTL works great, no environmental costs, cheap, reliable, fast. The fact that the knowledge came from Reapers does not make the technology a worse option.

Before you tell me that that plays into the Reaper's hands, I'm talking in terms of a post-Reaper galaxy (aka the end of ME3). Whatever you do at the end of ME3 the Reapers are no longer a threat. What many of us here are arguing though, is that destroying the Relays was a bridge too far by Bioware. It shouldn't be an unavoidable consequence of the conflict.

The fact that it is unavoidable is baffling to me. Especially if Bioware wants to keep the universe going with future titles and DLC. I agree with you completely that Humanity will survive; that most races will survive. I also agree that we could establish a stable society in the area around Earth and it's neighbouring systems etc.... It'll take generations but we might even come up with a new form of FTL and make contact with the other races again. But that won't be ME anymore. The Citadel, Relays, the vibrant array of species interacting with each other will be gone... at least for a few centuries.

Why would I want to play a game set in that universe. And why would I want to play a prequel knowing how it turns out. Even if they set it 1000 years in the future it won't be ME. It'll just be Star Wars with some kind of psuedo-science Hyperdrive. 

[Xellith]

lol the next mass effect will be like dragon age 2 and set in one system and in one city.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Navigation.

Navigation is easy in the Mass Effect space-travel universe. There isn't a 'this be choppy waters.'

Distances involved.

This is solvable by established ME technologies. Food can be grown on ships, manufactured goods can be fabricated by raw materials, and even ships from hundreds of years ago could last centuries of constant use.

Discharging the core.

Easily explained by using scouts ahead of any caravan to find the best systems.

Once you reach a gap between systems larger than fuel capacity or more distant that roughly 50 hours away, you are f*cked. That's if you can navigate there. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored in Mass Effect, you will be going into uncharted territory.

I have to ask where you got 50 hours from, because the only travel range given in the games that I can think of is the Reapers. They flew for a bit longer than 50 hours.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

When trolls call me a troll it gratifies me; it proves I'm not.
By all means, continue.

The "troll" part is not what I was applauding; I personally don't think you're a troll as you genuinely believe your position (as I genuinely believe mine.) But the rest of what he said is dead-on.

Taboo-XX wrote...

Such nonsense. You do the exact same thing. You run away like a pregnant cat whenever you're threatened. You're no less ****y than she is. You insult just as often as we do.

We're all in the same boat.

Art thou white-knighting for yon fair lady? Prithee a kiss and a garland, mine sir?

"Threatened," by who/what, exactly? :innocent:

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[The Angry One]

Oh so you think I'm angry? Trust me, the only thing I feel for Mass Effect right now is deep, deep sadness.

[Taboo]

I'm angrier than she'll ever be. My motives are my own.

He's threatened by an opposing opinion. He retreats like a pregnant beast. He only returns when he scavenges for food, or in his case people to torment.

He's just as bad as we are.

[Dean_the_Young]

Warp92 wrote...

Wulfram, it takes time to even discover planets with Telescopes... there are around (currently) 700 ish planets discovered and that only took like a decade... as I mentioned before there are at least two or three times more planets than there are suns .. and we have like 200-400 billion stars do the math bro

...the math would overwhelmingly favor Wulfram's position that travel would be possible.

Traveling the galaxy is going to be akin to island-hopping an archepelago, not driving a road. The only maps you need are the places you need to stop at. You'll never need to survey or know every system you pass: only the ones within hopping/recharge range from one another. As long as you're within range of another system, it doesn't matter how many more there are between you and your next destination. You'll just skip them.

The more systems you have, though, the more chances you'll have for a good discharge place. That increases your odds.

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

Bulk fuel is gathered by dedicated collector stations in orbit. Which have, you know, all been blown up by the Reapers.

And can be rebuilt.  Or our theoretical long range ship could be designed to do it's own skimming.

Yes and while they're at it they can stick a giant sign on the bow that says "PIRATE ME".

Meh.  Piracy seems distinctly unprofitable to me when you don't have FTL scanners.  And you could send a couple of frigates or something along as escort if you were really worried.  Or keep some of the guns.

Because I'm sure they brought automated barges with them to Sol for no particular reason.

No, but they can build them.

[Patchwork]

The Angry One wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

GothicLez wrote...


The Normandy can barely make it across a single nebula before running out of fuel... and it has been stated that the Normandy is a very unique and very SMALL ship... implying that it has probably the best fuel efficiency of any ship out there.

Game mechanic. The SR-1 travelled the same distances without having to re-fuel ever.

Actually the lack of fuel in ME1 was a game mechanic; fuel depots are part of the lore.

Yes but I don't think it's a reliable way to judge fuel consumption.  Forcing the player to buy fuel was a credit dump.

[Wulfram]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I have to ask where you got 50 hours from, because the only travel range given in the games that I can think of is the Reapers. They flew for a bit longer than 50 hours.

The codex

http://masseffect.wi...e:_Drive_Charge
As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 juin 2012 - 12:50 .