278 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And in the Stargazer scene, Shepard is now "The Shepard" indicating having been deified as some sort of warrior god/dess. Hence, primative society. Just because they didn't have their spears with them doesn't mean that the camp isn't 50 yds behind them.

Hm? Plenty, if not most, cultures have people who get so famous they get monikers other than their names. In the US, there's nearly a secular religion for The Founding Fathers.

'The <Insert Title Here> isn't a sign of primitive societies.

[Han Shot First]

The Angry One wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And in the Stargazer scene, Shepard is now "The Shepard" indicating having been deified as some sort of warrior god/dess. Hence, primative society. Just because they didn't have their spears with them doesn't mean that the camp isn't 50 yds behind them.

Also note the conspicuous lack of any city lights in the background or any aerial traffic.

...and the fact that there has been information decay. The fact that knowledge of their history has been lost, indicates an inability to produce the means to preserve it. This must mean that the galaxy went through a period where the information network was toast.

When we look at our own history and find gaps, those gaps exist before industrialization and the means to mass produce the written word. These gaps exist where information had to be preserved on isolated stone tablets or written by hand on papyrus, both of which have not always survived into the modern age.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

NS Wizdum wrote...

The problem is, did all those fleets bring enough food for a 3 year journy home?

They don't need to have done that. Food can be grown on ships: that is what the Quarians have done for hundreds of years. Plus any dextro-colonies in the Local Cluster, plus supplies scavenged from the Citadel... there's enough narrative room to justify the Turians surviving until they can grow their own stuff, even if you didn't bring the Quarians along.

The relays made sure that these ships were never more than 2 days away from a friendly harbor, why would they bring a lot of food/supplies? Their first priority is going to be finding a way to survive until the end of the week.

Military ships in the Mass Effect universe routinely go on patrolls that last more than two days.

It takes quite a bit of hardware to make a QEC pair. What are the chances that the hardware survived, and that it is within range of the fleet?

Pretty good, actually: besides salvageable Reaper tech, manufactories from the Crucible engineers and on Earth can also re-make infrastructure.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Oh so you think I'm angry? Trust me, the only thing I feel for Mass Effect right now is deep, deep sadness.

Sad, angry, whichever you prefer - either way is constantly negative. That is what he's right about.

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm angrier than she'll ever be. My motives are my own.

He's threatened by an opposing opinion. He retreats like a pregnant beast. He only returns when he scavenges for food, or in his case people to torment.

You're not going to get a kiss from this fair maiden milord, I would tilt at another windmill were I you.

[Taboo]

I bite mine thumb at thee.

I look to liking if looking liking do.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[Shaani]

Evenjelith wrote...

There is no problem depending on the Relay network so long as the
Reapers arn't around. You seem to be arguing that if we could just
develop non-Relay FTL things would be so much better. Why?

I pointed out earlier the state of Mars: a planet that could easily support as much life as Earth, passed over for terraforming because someone else gave them a free ride to planets that don't require terraforming.  Now that we could probably use another world in Sol, we don't have one.

Matriarch Aeythna says that the Asari should build their own mass relays, and "they laughed the blue offa my ass."

Heck, they're even afraid to open dormant relays, because they're scared of what they'll find at the other end.  Scared of the unknown.

The actual relays themselves are not the issue.  It's how people have reacted to them.  They have proped up a very pretty galactic society that is stagnant and cowardly and ripe for the plucking when the Reapers, or anything else, comes along.  The issue isn't ease of travel, it's the lack of progress it takes to get there.  Building new relays would be one thing, but the ones the Reapers built?  They are as much a part of the cycle of extinction as the Reapers.

What many of us here are arguing though, is that destroying the Relays was a bridge too far by Bioware. It shouldn't be an unavoidable consequence of the conflict.

The thing is, of everything that happens in the ending, this is probably the one thing that I thought was set up properly.

In Mass Effect, we learn that the Citadel is a giant relay designed to let the Reapers in and kill the leaders of the galaxy.

In ME2: Arrival, we see the Alpha Relay, an important connection in the Reaper's plans to invade.

So, in both games, we see the theme of the relay system literally come within a hair's width of dooming everyone.  By the time ME3 starts, it's been well established that the relays are nothing but a tool of Reaper domination.  Breaking them is clearly symbolic of of breaking the chains the Reapers have forced on the galaxy for eons (even if it's meant as a literal event).

I also think that's why they survive the Control ending.  The chains are still there, even if the hand that's holding them is different now.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xellith wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Xellith wrote...

The reapers themselves who are the "pinnacle" of evolution can supposedly only travel at 30 FTL.  

The only thing the Reapers are the pinnacle of is wiping out all life in the galaxy, and even then, they have to cheat.

Incorrect.  Unless you count making you pick the eradication ending (and it turns out to be true).  The reapers have only ever wiped out the Relay Network.  There are like 300 billion stars in the milky way.  There IS going to be life outside the relay network.  The reapers cannot and do not achieve their goal at any point.  There are just too many stars for the reapers plan to affect the entire galaxy - unless you involve the crucible.

A few caveats that should be added.

One, we don't actually know the limits of the Relay network. The Council forbid the opening of new relays, so there's an indeterminable number of never-activated relays, and the relays beyond them.

Then there's the matter of the galactic core and star distribution. Not to ignore the point, but those billions of stars aren't all spread out evenly, and the ME universe has established that the galactic core (where the most stars are) is also uninhabitable.

But most importantly, the Reapers never needed to put a relay at every star system either: they just have to scatter the relays they do put out at attractive solar systems that would be a priority for any fledgling FTL/near-FTL species. Since species would prioritize their searches for where they would get the most out of them, and such systems can be determined long before a species gets FTL capability, the Reapers can let the 'unlucky' species without a Mass Relay just come to them. Since those species will go to the nearest garden worlds first, the Reapers just need to seed the most attractive systems.


In the context of the Mass Effect universe, what you'd really see is the possiblity of species like the pre-First Contact Humanity. They might or might not have discovered lost technology, but haven't discovered a Mass Relay. Their empires would be small, and their technology still primitive.

[Funkdrspot]

taboo, Id like to know when I ever ran away from a conversation. I love mass effect but I'm not that emotionally invested to where I'm going to act illogical. If you're right or you can disprove my opinion, I have no qualms about giving you credit for doing so.

So yes, given our respective actions over the last two months, I think I conduct myself much better than angry one does. He/she acts like a jilted lover of Bioware and is out for revenge. You know the meme "some men just wanna see the world burn"? That's the impression I get.

[Wulfram]

Evenjelith wrote...

The fact that it is unavoidable is baffling to me. Especially if Bioware wants to keep the universe going with future titles and DLC. I agree with you completely that Humanity will survive; that most races will survive. I also agree that we could establish a stable society in the area around Earth and it's neighbouring systems etc.... It'll take generations but we might even come up with a new form of FTL and make contact with the other races again. But that won't be ME anymore. The Citadel, Relays, the vibrant array of species interacting with each other will be gone... at least for a few centuries.

Why would I want to play a game set in that universe. And why would I want to play a prequel knowing how it turns out. Even if they set it 1000 years in the future it won't be ME. It'll just be Star Wars with some kind of psuedo-science Hyperdrive. 

I quite like the idea of a setting say 100 years after the Reaper war, with the Relay network just starting to be slowly reconstructed.  You could have the old Mass Effect feeling, but also a sense of exploration and freshness as the galaxy discovers what it's sundered parts had been doing in the meantime - as well as danger and intrigue as people wonder whether anyone's going to take advantage to try and do a bit of empire building.

I'd also note that with all the people stranded there, Earth itself should have a pretty vibrant array of species.  Maybe the Asari soldiers have set up their own little City State in North America?  Maybe Wreav has conquered Australia?

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And in the Stargazer scene, Shepard is now "The Shepard" indicating having been deified as some sort of warrior god/dess. Hence, primative society. Just because they didn't have their spears with them doesn't mean that the camp isn't 50 yds behind them.

Also note the conspicuous lack of any city lights in the background or any aerial traffic.

...and the fact that there has been information decay. The fact that knowledge of their history has been lost, indicates an inability to produce the means to preserve it. This must mean that the galaxy went through a period where the information network was toast.

Information decay happens regardless, no matter the medium. Besides people who simply get their facts wrong, perfect information storage capability does not, and never will, imply that either all data is stored, or that information recall will be possible. You can store information all you like, but if you can't remember how to access it then it's irrelevant.

Case in point: try and find the last post I made on this subject.

When we look at our own history and find gaps, those gaps exist before industrialization and the means to mass produce the written word. These gaps exist where information had to be preserved on isolated stone tablets or written by hand on papyrus, both of which have not always survived into the modern age.

Nah, the information is just as easy to lose nowadays. Easier, in many respects, because while the information stores data it has no means of verifying it before storing it. While information recording used to be a limiter, excessive information stored is now a common problem. There's too much other information, and too many contradictory reports, for a single understanding to be maintained forever.

Case in point in the extreme, look for a contemporary history of politics for whatever nation you please. Chances are you'll not only find contradictory opinions, but you'll find so many that it can be hard to find a specific incident.

[Taboo]

Oh but the result is that the world has burned! That's what's so awful about this situation. I shouldn't even be here. I would rather have been replaying Mass Effect and working on my next film job. We all run when we get pissed. EVERYONE.

I don't hate the endings, I hate the sloppiness of the execution.

[NS Wizdum]

Funkdrspot wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

shaani, I completely agree with what you stated. too many emotionally charged people trying to create reasons to hate the end. The reality is that they can't stand the destruction of the mass relays because it injects instability into the very heart of the story they love, so they create reasons why it shouldn't work and demand a completely new ending.

As it stands, the issues of galactic travel, a galactic darkage, starvation and the citadel entering the atmosphere have already been dealt with but they keep coming up b/c its not an issue of logic for some people.

I'm going to assume you are still trolling, unless you actually explain any of this.

i was never trolling, that was just a nice neat label to place on me so you could marginalize my opinion. i actually made 2 threads explaining some of these things and the retakers just left when i started talking physics and chirality.

I'm not calling you a troll so I can ignore your opinion. I can ignore your opinion because you havn't actually shared it yet. What you have done, is made a statement with no supporting information or situation. I'm calling you a troll because you keep reiterating the same statement, without expanding upon it. Like you are baiting a trap and waiting for someone to challenge your poorly formed statement. If you have an opinion based on this statement, thats fine, I just havn't heard it yet.

[LucasShark]

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I have to ask where you got 50 hours from, because the only travel range given in the games that I can think of is the Reapers. They flew for a bit longer than 50 hours.

The codex

http://masseffect.wi...e:_Drive_Charge
As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.

Gracias for that, Wulfram.

Not sure that factoid bears out anywhere else in the lore, but it's interesting to know. 



EDIT:

As a side note, after thinking about it I've come to feel that a good 'consequence' for letting Cerberus keep the base would have been if Cerberus had stolen/reverse engineered Reaper FTL technology. Not as good as the Reapers, of course, but even if it was just the drive core discharge issue, then Cerberus could start the post-Reaper galaxy with a huge advantage vis-a-vis other groups.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 juin 2012 - 01:15 .

[Taboo]

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

[LucasShark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

THen he's an idiot: Why would you set up an entire universe, not to mention give us access to all this technical detail, which they knew people would be internalizing, for YEARS, and then ignore a major staple of it?  That is idiotic in the extreme.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Well, bar the parts that have (the rise of fabricator technology), as well as how the actual barier to travel was infrastructure.

[Funkdrspot]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm angrier than she'll ever be. My motives are my own.

He's threatened by an opposing opinion. He retreats like a pregnant beast. He only returns when he scavenges for food, or in his case people to torment.

He's just as bad as we are.

what am i threatened by? i GRAVITATE towards opposing opinions. i dislike those that seek affirmation of their opinion instead of trying to challenge it....and what is this nonsense about calling me a pregnant beast?!?

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

THen he's an idiot: Why would you set up an entire universe, not to mention give us access to all this technical detail, which they knew people would be internalizing, for YEARS, and then ignore a major staple of it?  That is idiotic in the extreme.

Perhapse because he didn't?

The reason galactic travel is impossible without the relays is that no one has set up the infrastructure for it. The galaxy didn't map out slow-FTL routes because there was no need. Transportable helium-3 capability is rare because few people have the need. Most people don't need to grow food.

But these are logistical barriers, not technical barriers. They can be overcome with the technology at hand, and the technology at hand can be re-shaped to meet the circumstance.

[mauro2222]

Unless they have the complete galaxy in a map, any trip to return to their respectives homeworlds is suicide. The lack of gas giants or planets in the trip + the possibility to enter a wormhole, hit an asteroid, a planet or a sun is too big.

The Milky Way has been explored up to 1%... just the system with an active mass relays and the surrounding ones.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 juin 2012 - 01:26 .

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

THen he's an idiot: Why would you set up an entire universe, not to mention give us access to all this technical detail, which they knew people would be internalizing, for YEARS, and then ignore a major staple of it?  That is idiotic in the extreme.

Perhapse because he didn't?

The reason galactic travel is impossible without the relays is that no one has set up the infrastructure for it. The galaxy didn't map out slow-FTL routes because there was no need. Transportable helium-3 capability is rare because few people have the need. Most people don't need to grow food.

But these are logistical barriers, not technical barriers. They can be overcome with the technology at hand, and the technology at hand can be re-shaped to meet the circumstance.

Speed of travel, and drive discharge sites aren't infrastructure.  I'd like to see you move a sodding planet into a place where you can use it.

[Dean_the_Young]

mauro2222 wrote...

Unless they have the complete galaxy maped, any trip to return to their respectives homeworlds is suicide. The lack of gas giants or planets in the trip,

Is virtually zero, because gas giants are the most common type of planet, and are found across the galaxy. There isn't a sector in the galaxy that doesn't have gas giants.

the possibility to enter a wormhole,

Wormholes, as such, are not a plot device of the Mass Effect universe, or any sort of navigational hazard.

hit an asteroid,

Is infitessimally small in dark space, and has never been treated as a significant hazard in solar systems as well.

a planet or a sun is too big.

Unless, you know, they fly around the solar system...

[Funkdrspot]

Ns wizdom, lol ok I understand you. As stated I'm on a cell phone so having a multiquote convo is impossible b/c BSN runs some funky chat coding. You gotta wait until I get home

[PsyrenY]

I confess to being a bit torn. I think Relays themselves (the technology) can in fact be used for great benefit. But at the same time, they represented a practically indefensible lattice that connects every advanced homeworld in the galaxy. If a threat were to invade from beyond the Milky Way, they - like the Reapers - would have an easy trip to our seats of government, our civilians, our natural resources etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

THen he's an idiot: Why would you set up an entire universe, not to mention give us access to all this technical detail, which they knew people would be internalizing, for YEARS, and then ignore a major staple of it?  That is idiotic in the extreme.

Perhapse because he didn't?

The reason galactic travel is impossible without the relays is that no one has set up the infrastructure for it. The galaxy didn't map out slow-FTL routes because there was no need. Transportable helium-3 capability is rare because few people have the need. Most people don't need to grow food.

But these are logistical barriers, not technical barriers. They can be overcome with the technology at hand, and the technology at hand can be re-shaped to meet the circumstance.

Speed of travel, and drive discharge sites aren't infrastructure. 

Hence why I used the word 'logistical barriers.'

Maps and surveys, however, are a form of infrastructure development.

It isn't even the speed of travel that's the real barrier, since indefinite-maintanence and survival technologies are old news. It's the range of travel that's the actual concern.

I'd like to see you move a sodding planet into a place where you can use it.

Why bother, when we finally have reason to send scouts to find more for us?

It's not like there's a major shortage of them either. Planets that drive cores can be dumped at aren't exactly a galactic rarity.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 juin 2012 - 01:31 .