278 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

@Dean,

Multiple sources that contradict each other is not unique to the modern era. Take Julius Caesar as an example. Depending on which ancient historian was writing about him he could be painted in a sympathetic light or as something of a villain. It is the job of modern historians to try and sift through and interpret that, and somehow find the real man in the middle of it. That being said, while who Caesar was as a man may be open to interpretation, historical events that he was involved in are not. History has preserved for example records of his conquest of Gaul, his defeat of the Germans or raids on Britain, or victory in the Roman civil war that followed.

In contrast the Stargazer talks about Shepard not as if it is someone who there are differing opinions on, but rather as someone who has been partially forgotten by history. Details have been lost. Shepard isn't someone who has a crapton of information written about him, some of contradictory, but rather someone who has gaps in the historical accounts of his exploits.

This indicates either one of two things:

1. The entire galaxy entered a dark age and the desctruction of the relay network also brought down the information network. By the time society had once again reached the information age (if it had at all by the time of stargazer), important details had been lost to time.

2. The world the Stargazer is on is obviously the same one the Normandy crashed on. The other possibility is that this world is isolated and cut off from the rest of the galaxy, and its existence has not been discovered. It is possible that it was only this world which went through a period where it lacked technology.

[Evenjelith]

Shaani wrote...

Evenjelith wrote...

I pointed out earlier the state of Mars: a planet that could easily support as much life as Earth, passed over for terraforming because someone else gave them a free ride to planets that don't require terraforming.  Now that we could probably use another world in Sol, we don't have one.

Matriarch Aeythna says that the Asari should build their own mass relays, and "they laughed the blue offa my ass."

Heck, they're even afraid to open dormant relays, because they're scared of what they'll find at the other end.  Scared of the unknown.

The actual relays themselves are not the issue.  It's how people have reacted to them.  They have proped up a very pretty galactic society that is stagnant and cowardly and ripe for the plucking when the Reapers, or anything else, comes along.  The issue isn't ease of travel, it's the lack of progress it takes to get there.  Building new relays would be one thing, but the ones the Reapers built?  They are as much a part of the cycle of extinction as the Reapers.

Evenjelith wrote... 

Before you tell me that that plays into the Reaper's hands, I'm talking in terms of a post-Reaper galaxy (aka the end of ME3). Whatever you do at the end of ME3 the Reapers are no longer a threat. What many of us here are arguing though, is that destroying the Relays was a bridge too far by Bioware. It shouldn't be an unavoidable consequence of the conflict.

 

  

I'm sorry but you seem to have completely ignored the statement above. You're right: Mars could be Terraformed, Atheyta was laughed at, many relays were not activeated yet (until they could establish contact with the other side and be sure it was safe to do so)... I don't see the problem. That's how societies work, path of least resistance is not inherintly bad.

If they tried really hard in ME, they could probably colonise every solid planet/planetiod in the Sol system with the right mix of know-how and enthusiasm. Why? We've colonised almost the entirety of Earth to the point of overpopulation and that's because we haven't been able to get off the planet. In ME the Drell did the same thing but couldn't get into space before they wiped themselves out. You seem to be taking a very Darwinian approach to this whole situation; Survival of the Fittest. The relays are a crutch so with them gone we can progess entirely on our own merrit, or we can go extinct.

It's not like society and culture have stagnated. There are new advances in almost every field of science in ME throught just the first two games. FTL hasn't been improved because it operates at and beyond levels necessary to support the current technological level of the Citadel races. Maybe in 1000 years technology might have caught up to the Relays and at that point they'd have looked for new alternatives.

The Relays are only a weapon for the Reapers because they can control the Citadel and shut them down. Some other 'unknown' enemy would probably be unable to effect them in that way. In fact an unknown enemy may have a different kind of FTL that takes days to move from system to system. Giving the Citadel races a huge advantage in mobility over them using the Relays.

Shaani wrote... 

What many of us here are arguing though, is that destroying the Relays was a bridge too far by Bioware. It shouldn't be an unavoidable consequence of the conflict.

The thing is, of everything that happens in the ending, this is probably the one thing that I thought was set up properly.

In Mass Effect, we learn that the Citadel is a giant relay designed to let the Reapers in and kill the leaders of the galaxy.

In ME2: Arrival, we see the Alpha Relay, an important connection in the Reaper's plans to invade.

So, in both games, we see the theme of the relay system literally come within a hair's width of dooming everyone.  By the time ME3 starts, it's been well established that the relays are nothing but a tool of Reaper domination.  Breaking them is clearly symbolic of of breaking the chains the Reapers have forced on the galaxy for eons (even if it's meant as a literal event).

I also think that's why they survive the Control ending.  The chains are still there, even if the hand that's holding them is different now.

On a symbolic level I can't argue with you. I see the metaphore of breaking the chains. The damage it does to the universe though I think outweighs any artistic gains.

Modifié par Evenjelith, 01 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

"Non-existant" THere, I just saved all of you the 8 pages of this thread.

ME, from day one, stated that FTL travel across the galaxy is an impossibility, period, given the technology the citadel races have. That has not changed in 2.5 years.

Mac Walters, official lore smasher begs to disagree with you.

THen he's an idiot: Why would you set up an entire universe, not to mention give us access to all this technical detail, which they knew people would be internalizing, for YEARS, and then ignore a major staple of it?  That is idiotic in the extreme.

Perhapse because he didn't?

The reason galactic travel is impossible without the relays is that no one has set up the infrastructure for it. The galaxy didn't map out slow-FTL routes because there was no need. Transportable helium-3 capability is rare because few people have the need. Most people don't need to grow food.

But these are logistical barriers, not technical barriers. They can be overcome with the technology at hand, and the technology at hand can be re-shaped to meet the circumstance.

Speed of travel, and drive discharge sites aren't infrastructure. 

Hence why I used the word 'logistical barriers.'

Maps and surveys, however, are a form of infrastructure development.

It isn't even the speed of travel that's the real barrier, since indefinite-maintanence and survival technologies are old news. It's the range of travel that's the actual concern.

I'd like to see you move a sodding planet into a place where you can use it.

Why bother, when we finally have reason to send scouts to find more for us?

It's not like there's a major shortage of them either. Planets that drive cores can be dumped at aren't exactly a galactic rarity.

WIthin dense clusters they are common, between them, not so much.

[mauro2222]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is virtually zero, because gas giants are the most common type of planet, and are found across the galaxy. There isn't a sector in the galaxy that doesn't have gas giants.

Right, because you travel 10km and you encounter a planet.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wormholes, as such, are not a plot device of the Mass Effect universe, or any sort of navigational hazard.

Haha, sorry I meant blackhole.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is infitessimally small in dark space, and has never been treated as a significant hazard in solar systems as well.

But is there. In trillions, it actually adds to the risk.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unless, you know, they fly around the solar system...

Of course, because they can stop every single time they encounter something

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 juin 2012 - 01:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

@Dean,

Multiple sources that contradict each other is not unique to the modern era. Take Julius Caesar as an example. Depending on which ancient historian was writing about him he could be painted in a sympathetic light or as something of a villain. It is the job of modern historians to try and sift through and interpret that, and somehow find the real man in the middle of it. That being said, while who Caesar was as a man may be open to interpretation, historical events that he was involved in are not. History has preserved for example records of his conquest of Gaul, his defeat of the Germans or raids on Britain, or victory in the Roman civil war that followed.

I'm not claiming it's unique to the modern era, so... this counterargument proves what?

In contrast the Stargazer talks about Shepard not as if it is someone who there are differing opinions on, but rather as someone who has been partially forgotten by history. Details have been lost. Shepard isn't someone who has a crapton of information written about him, some of contradictory, but rather someone who has gaps in the historical accounts of his exploits.

Large parts of Shepard's story were never public knowledge in the first place, being classified.

Besides that Shepard certainly would have had a lot of writing about him/her, being a galaxy-shaping celebrity for the better part of half a decade, and certainly receive contradictory accounts based on people who approved or disapproved, why would we expect a total record in the first place?

This indicates either one of two things:

1. The entire galaxy entered a dark age and the desctruction of the relay network also brought down the information network. By the time society had once again reached the information age (if it had at all by the time of stargazer), important details had been lost to time.

2. The world the Stargazer is on is obviously the same one the Normandy crashed on. The other possibility is that this world is isolated and cut off from the rest of the galaxy, and its existence has not been discovered. It is possible that it was only this world which went through a period where it lacked technology.

Don't be so close minded and stop the false dilemmas. It can indicate a good number of other things as well.

[LucasShark]

SOme simple math:
Average time an engine can run before discharge: 50 hours, roughly 2 days
Average cruising speed (I reject this because it makes no sense given the rest of the lore, but people seem to latch onto it) : 12 lightyears per day

Which means the range of an average cruiser or Frigate weight ship is: 12x2 = 24 lightyears before fatal discharge. That is PEANUTS!

[Dean_the_Young]

mauro2222 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is virtually zero, because gas giants are the most common type of planet, and are found across the galaxy. There isn't a sector in the galaxy that doesn't have gas giants.

Right, because you travel 10km and you encounter a planet.

This neither refutes or even addresses what you are quoting.

Haha, sorry I meant blackhole.

Blackholes are not untrackable navigational hazards either.

But is there. In trillions, it actually adds to the risk.

In Dark Space? No, because Dark Space is so much bigger.

Moreover, there's never been any real lore-concern about asteroids or anything else as a FTL danger.

Of course, because they can stop every single time they encounter something

Why would they have to stop? Just don't try to fly through the solar systems at FTL, and bypass the ones you don't need to go to.

This objection is really bizaar, because the solution for it is simpler than your actual presenation of the problem.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

SOme simple math:
Average time an engine can run before discharge: 50 hours, roughly 2 days
Average cruising speed (I reject this because it makes no sense given the rest of the lore, but people seem to latch onto it) : 12 lightyears per day

Which means the range of an average cruiser or Frigate weight ship is: 12x2 = 24 lightyears before fatal discharge. That is PEANUTS!

Yeah... and it's also one of those lore-contradictory thing, because the Normandy can go a fair deal further than that on a single tank of gas.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

WIthin dense clusters they are common, between them, not so much.

Clusters are defined by Relay paths, not star density. There is no space-geography implied in a Cluster except that of relay locations.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

SOme simple math:
Average time an engine can run before discharge: 50 hours, roughly 2 days
Average cruising speed (I reject this because it makes no sense given the rest of the lore, but people seem to latch onto it) : 12 lightyears per day

Which means the range of an average cruiser or Frigate weight ship is: 12x2 = 24 lightyears before fatal discharge. That is PEANUTS!

Yeah... and it's also one of those lore-contradictory thing, because the Normandy can go a fair deal further than that on a single tank of gas.

WRONG: All the FTL flight we see in-game is within "densely packed clusters of stars" as per the settlement patterns of the universe.  This means that the Normandy isn't traveling far at all relative to the galaxy.  The long-distances we see are traveled Via the Mass Relays. 

[Dean_the_Young]

And with that, I bid you all goodnight.

[Malanek]

I can't believe some of the negativity shown by people on here. Just because a voyage is going to take longer, maybe a week, maybe 6 months, maybe 6 years, doesn't mean that those voyages will not take place. In fact I hate to break it to you but that is probably a lot more realistic in terms of how real future space travel will work. Anyway regardless of reality, in the ME world we would see use of cyro technology to pass the time and reduce ageing and food consumption.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But now you're using starcharts from 2183. You might as well be using a sliderule. Suppose you miss by a weentzy bit, and it's just only a couple light years away and you're say at 23 LY. Damn. I guess that's two years before you get to discharge anywhere. Or you could push your luck and go for 11 more month-light/yrs and HOPE your capacitors hold up so you can shave almost a year off without killing everyone.

It's not as simple as it seems. And the longer it takes the more out of date your starchart gets. And you're going to have to keep having your computer project where every celestial body is so you don't have one get in your path and drop you out of FTL before you want. See?

Oh, and suppose one of your capacitors blows while you're out there. Maintenance.

But in reality, if we want to get real about this, since someone brought reality up, we're not going to be going out of our local cluster for space travel unless tech is developed where we can fold space and make a wormhole, and even that is really out there. So until relativity is disproven, if ever, we're not going anywhere via FTL.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 01 juin 2012 - 01:55 .

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

WIthin dense clusters they are common, between them, not so much.

Clusters are defined by Relay paths, not star density. There is no space-geography implied in a Cluster except that of relay locations.

WRONG: Stars in our galaxy are often grouped in clusters, our own sun belongs ot its own cluster.  This is because of gravity, and the way in which stars form (from acretion discs of dust within nebulas).  Stars are NOT spread evenly across space.

[mauro2222]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This neither refutes or even addresses what you are quoting.

Yes it does my friend, not every part of the galaxy is covered with planets or planetoids.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would they have to stop? Just don't try to fly through the solar systems at FTL, and bypass the ones you don't need to go to.

Are you kidding me? they can only go in one direction at FTL speed, and is forward, if the sensors pick something they have to stop. Unless you have magical sensors that can detect things at 300 lightyears.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Correct: after this, goodnight.

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

SOme simple math:
Average time an engine can run before discharge: 50 hours, roughly 2 days
Average cruising speed (I reject this because it makes no sense given the rest of the lore, but people seem to latch onto it) : 12 lightyears per day

Which means the range of an average cruiser or Frigate weight ship is: 12x2 = 24 lightyears before fatal discharge. That is PEANUTS!

Yeah... and it's also one of those lore-contradictory thing, because the Normandy can go a fair deal further than that on a single tank of gas.

WRONG: All the FTL flight we see in-game is within "densely packed clusters of stars" as per the settlement patterns of the universe.  This means that the Normandy isn't traveling far at all relative to the galaxy.  The long-distances we see are traveled Via the Mass Relays. 

That's not actually disagreeing with what I said.

What I was claiming is that those trips we do are more than 24 light years in distance.

[LucasShark]

Malanek999 wrote...

I can't believe some of the negativity shown by people on here. Just because a voyage is going to take longer, maybe a week, maybe 6 months, maybe 6 years, doesn't mean that those voyages will not take place. In fact I hate to break it to you but that is probably a lot more realistic in terms of how real future space travel will work. Anyway regardless of reality, in the ME world we would see use of cyro technology to pass the time and reduce ageing and food consumption.

"Decades or centuries" - codex

ANd Cryo systems are the most idiotic idea in the history of man from a narrative perspective.  People cannot have any form of relationship outside their own ship or planet: because the moment you make 1 trip, everyone you knew is dead.  Not to mention it makes any kind of conflict impossible: as any ship you send to an enemy planet will be decades out of date technologically by the time it gets there.  Not to mention from a gameplay perspective it would be really bloody boring.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Correct: after this, goodnight.

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

SOme simple math:
Average time an engine can run before discharge: 50 hours, roughly 2 days
Average cruising speed (I reject this because it makes no sense given the rest of the lore, but people seem to latch onto it) : 12 lightyears per day

Which means the range of an average cruiser or Frigate weight ship is: 12x2 = 24 lightyears before fatal discharge. That is PEANUTS!

Yeah... and it's also one of those lore-contradictory thing, because the Normandy can go a fair deal further than that on a single tank of gas.

WRONG: All the FTL flight we see in-game is within "densely packed clusters of stars" as per the settlement patterns of the universe.  This means that the Normandy isn't traveling far at all relative to the galaxy.  The long-distances we see are traveled Via the Mass Relays. 

That's not actually disagreeing with what I said.

What I was claiming is that those trips we do are more than 24 light years in distance.

How do you want me to counter that?  That is impossible: we are told it takes place in dense clusters, we know the range of the Normandy, hence the trips are below that threshhold.  Case closed.

[Han Shot First]

@Dean,

Give an example of any historical event that has happened in the last 150 years where details have been largely lost to time, because of an overabudance of information to sift through. Lack of information creates gaps in histories, not an overabundance.

It was fairly clear in the Stargazer dialogue that knowledge had been lost to time. It also wasn't a case of information not to being known because it had been classified, because Stargazer's dialogue states that the information was lost to time. classified information would have never been widely known, and thus it would be impossible for a society to have a perception that it was lost. You can only lose something if you possess it.

The dialogue was what it appeared to be when taken at face value --- an indication of information decay. The writers were obviously setting that scene in a more primitive setting than the one Shepard lived in.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[Malanek]

LucasShark wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I can't believe some of the negativity shown by people on here. Just because a voyage is going to take longer, maybe a week, maybe 6 months, maybe 6 years, doesn't mean that those voyages will not take place. In fact I hate to break it to you but that is probably a lot more realistic in terms of how real future space travel will work. Anyway regardless of reality, in the ME world we would see use of cyro technology to pass the time and reduce ageing and food consumption.

"Decades or centuries" - codex

Where in the codex do you get that from? It contradicts the speeds that were in the OP that are actually from the codex.

[JPN17]

Wulfram wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

Pretty much. Galactic travel without the relays really only became possible on twitter after the ending was ripped apart and the Bioware reps were trying to save face. Everything in game says it's not possible, so it's really just another out of game retcon to add to the ever growing list.

Except the speed of regular FTL was established well before then, and once you have that there's no good reason why it should be impossible.

edit: and of course Reaper capabilities to travel without relays were strongly established by Arrival.

FTL speed is not the issue why FTL travel across the galaxy will not be successful. There's plenty of good reasons why FTL travel will not work in this thread alone. Also human ships are not reapers. The reapers being able to travel the galaxy without the relays is irrelevant.

[LucasShark]

Malanek999 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I can't believe some of the negativity shown by people on here. Just because a voyage is going to take longer, maybe a week, maybe 6 months, maybe 6 years, doesn't mean that those voyages will not take place. In fact I hate to break it to you but that is probably a lot more realistic in terms of how real future space travel will work. Anyway regardless of reality, in the ME world we would see use of cyro technology to pass the time and reduce ageing and food consumption.

"Decades or centuries" - codex

Where in the codex do you get that from? It contradicts the speeds that were in the OP that are actually from the codex.

From the very first entry on Mass Relays.  And I have brought up the contradiction in the past: the whole "12 lightyears per day" comes from ONE line from Ashley, who knows nothing about starships.  I reject it.  And even if 12 is correct: that would mean in a straight line, which the 24 LY range before drive discharge makes impossible anyway: you'd have to criss-cross between clusters of stars or individual systems hundreds of times..

[Malanek]

mauro2222 wrote...
Are you kidding me? they can only go in one direction at FTL speed, and is forward, if the sensors pick something they have to stop. Unless you have magical sensors that can detect things at 300 lightyears.

If you are going faster than the speed of light sensors are not going to detect anything. How can they?

[mauro2222]

Malanek999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...
Are you kidding me? they can only go in one direction at FTL speed, and is forward, if the sensors pick something they have to stop. Unless you have magical sensors that can detect things at 300 lightyears.

If you are going faster than the speed of light sensors are not going to detect anything. How can they?

You tell me, Joker could know what the hell was happening with the Quarians and the Geth.

[Malanek]

LucasShark wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I can't believe some of the negativity shown by people on here. Just because a voyage is going to take longer, maybe a week, maybe 6 months, maybe 6 years, doesn't mean that those voyages will not take place. In fact I hate to break it to you but that is probably a lot more realistic in terms of how real future space travel will work. Anyway regardless of reality, in the ME world we would see use of cyro technology to pass the time and reduce ageing and food consumption.

"Decades or centuries" - codex

Where in the codex do you get that from? It contradicts the speeds that were in the OP that are actually from the codex.

From the very first entry on Mass Relays.  And I have brought up the contradiction in the past: the whole "12 lightyears per day" comes from ONE line from Ashley, who knows nothing about starships.  I reject it.  And even if 12 is correct: that would mean in a straight line, which the 24 LY range before drive discharge makes impossible anyway: you'd have to criss-cross between clusters of stars or individual systems hundreds of times..

That's interesting, when I read it, which I just have, it says "years or even decades". And anyway that is talking about extreme journeys. There are lots of intersteller places you can go that will take less time.