Aller au contenu

Photo

Bioware Attempted To Tell The Story That Cannot Be Told.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
192 réponses à ce sujet

#1
MyChemicalBromance

MyChemicalBromance
  • Members
  • 2 020 messages
Edit: The short version of this post is that the ending evokes a sense of false Nihilism, that is, "nothing matters yet." I contend that no one can be told that nothing matters, and that the "yet" statement is ultimately in conflict with the ending, but not with the story that came before it. If you want to read the rest of this be my guest.



And now, in open defiance of my own title, I am going to attempt to explain what that story is. I won’t succeed, but perhaps it will illuminate some of the decisions made in the Mass Effect series. The explanation for the title is in section 4 as part of point 2.
Let me begin by saying that this thread will likely be offensive to anyone who is religious, spiritual, “scientific,” or is deeply attached to any sense of “meaning” or “truth.” Basically, this thread will likely be a little bit offensive to everyone; it even offends me somewhat. This is not because of any malicious intent on my part, but simply due to the nature of the subject matter. Read on at your own risk.
 
 Table of Contents
1. Philosophy (Nihilism)
2. Free-Will without Freedom:  Mass Effect, Society, and Life
3. The Geth, Saren, and the Quarians
4. Indoctrination: A Misnomer?
5. The Reapers, the Catalyst, and Singularity: An Answer to a Question with None
6. Destroy, Control, and Synthesis are the same (not a RGB statement :)
7. Conclusions
 
 
*I’d be happy to debate any part of this statement with you.
Definitions:
 
 
 
 
Philosophy (Nihilism)
 
Image IPB



You are plagued by questions of existence.

 (We’ll hit Mass Effect eventually, but my points won’t make sense unless you read this. You don’t have to accept any of this to understand my points, but you do need to read it. Trust me. Also, I'm kind of throwing my **** up front, instead of leaving it till the end, the opposite of ME3)
Death is something that every last one of us will confront someday. It is the end of “knowing,” a point where every observable definition of “self” ceases to exist.
More importantly, the existence of death causes us to reflect on the nature of life. What is the point of life? If life just ends, what could it possibly mean? In response to the absurdity of existence, we create false absolutes. Truth, meaning, justice, honor, society, freedom, religion, human rights, and even time itself are all constructions of the human mind*. We build our world to create order, because that is the way we wish to see the world.
Order is based on the premise that there is such a thing as “right,” or such a thing as “truth.” You can build order upon the question “what is the meaning of life?” because it assumes the answer to the question “is there such thing as meaning?” is yes. This assumption leads to the whole of human society as we know it. If the answer to the previous question is no, then we are truly no more than animals. I am of the opinion that we are no more than animals.
Something very beneficial to animals is the concept of time. Without time, we could not make the “if-then” statements that shape the world we live in. If-then statements are the basis of science, religion, and government in our modern world. If-then statements are not “pure” however.
Many individuals shout that religion is the product of idiocy and that its claims of “truth” are laughable, then those same individuals proclaim that science is the only path to “truth” without noticing the thunderous hypocrisy. This is a wholesale misinterpretation of science. Science does not acknowledge the existence of “truth” because it can’t. If-then statements could only be absolutes if the entirety of the “if” and the “then” are known. The current state of quantum mechanics should make it clear that humanity has never known an absolute “if” or “then” in its entire existence. Even if absolute knowledge exists, it would not exist as an if-then statement, because time is a human invention. My point here is that nothing produced by humanity, not even science, is based in “truth.” If-then statements are a useful tool for navigating the world, and it is clear why they, as well as the perception of time, are traits that get selected for biologically: individuals who can act on limited information will always outperform those that cannot. It remains to be seen how an individual with “absolute” information could compete, but that assumes such information exists.
 
To counter the arguments for the “purity” of thought that I can feel welling up, I present the next few paragraphs, I promise after that we will go to Mass Effect.
 
The statement “I think, therefore I am” is at best redundant and at worst absurd. If “I” is to be defined solely as thought, then the statement is redundant. If “I” is anything else, then “I” is supernatural, and the statement makes little sense. Thought is a biological process, and using it to confirm the “truth” of a human absolute is therefore flawed. It would make just as much sense to say “I digest, therefore I am.”
That said, we often comfort ourselves with the thought that the mere action of thinking is proof that we are not our bodies. It is easy to see the purpose this thought, this biological process. As an exercise in cognitive masochism, I’d suggest you attempt the following. The next time you’re alone, think about how your thoughts work. The most important thing to notice: you cannot think independently of time; a human invention.
Your thoughts progress sequentially, that is to say, you cannot isolate a single instant of time and find a thought in it. A useful analog would be the way in which we speak. If you take one instant from a conversation, all you will find is a single tone. For any information to be delivered, that tone must be compared to the tone that came before it (this is, interestingly, descriptively similar to the way Quantum Entanglement works, except Quantum Entanglement is not dependent on time). We draw the previous “tone” from our memory; an imperfect recorder to say the least. The disconcerting portion of this thought experiment comes when you realize that thought, your “truest” definition of self, exists as series of comparisons against information stored in a poor memory device, information taken from data limited further still by the biological limitations of human sensory organs. In truth, “we” are ****ty camcorders in a dark room, and when our “film” decays, “we” decay. I meant it when I said this thread will probably upset everyone in some way.
 
The reason I bring all of this up is that I think it is integral to understanding the design of the Mass Effect Trilogy. Mass Effect is a story, and humans love to tell stories. All of human culture and society is a story we tell ourselves to bring order to our lives, and thus to comfort ourselves. It makes sense to me then that a story that attempts to convey that all stories are false would be poorly received by many people. Mass Effect, however, attempts to say “none of these stories matter, but there may be a way to make them matter.” This kind of story is about absolute hope, and often finds itself incorporated into religions. All of society is based on different versions of this story, and it is apparent why the alternative viewpoint never spawned a similar society. I’d now like to explain how Mass Effect does this.
 
Free-Will without Freedom: Mass Effect, Society, and Life
Image IPB



Organics impose consensus.

 
Freedom is a very important concept to all of us, though the degree and interpretation varies across cultures. Some countries claim to disperse freedom, some people claim to die for freedom, and others dream of one day being free. It is also, not surprisingly, and important element of the Mass Effect series.
 
However, we must ask: what is freedom? The answer seems obvious; liberty and the ability to determine one’s own destiny. This definition is in conflict with all societal forms of “freedom,” and is also in conflict with what we observe to be reality.
 
A citizen cannot be free in an absolute sense as long as they are in some way dependent on their government, community, or family. Even those that call for “small government” still call for basic services such as police and military, thus making libertarian policies just as “enslaving” as big government policies when compared to absolute freedom. In truth, absolute societal freedom is anarchy, something that any form of government is obviously against. But is an individual truly free when they are without society?
The answer is no. We may think of the cowboy or the outlaw being truly free, but they are not. Even if I am completely away from all of human society, even if I am the last human alive, I do not have absolute freedom. I am still bound by the limits of my own body, my own mind, and the universe I exist in. I may want to be a purple dragon, but no matter how much I desire it, no matter how much I wish it to be true, I do not have the freedom to be a purple dragon.
In a similar sense, I do not have the freedom to avoid death. It is not a matter of wanting it, it is simply the fact that I do not have the choice. It is in this light that the reason we so desire freedom becomes apparent.
We shouldn’t confuse freedom and free-will however. Our bodies can obviously choose between the options available, they just don’t have every single option available. Anyone that did would be a god, but more on that later.
Mass Effect is not very different from real life, in the sense that we can only choose between the options available. A significant amount of conflict in real life rises when one individual has more choices than another. This is also the source of the Creator-Created conflict in Mass Effect.
Point 1
The Created may not have absolute freedom, but they do have the choice to avoid death indefinitely. Their Creators do not have this choice, and every part of the Creator’s society is built to distract from this fact. There is nothing to say that an organic and a synthetic could not sit in the same room without destroying each other, but if the creator brought their society into the room, there would inherently be conflict. An organic accepts society as truth. While a synthetic may respect or even protect this society, it will never accept it as absolute truth. This inherently causes conflict, as the organic must accept their own meaninglessness(“self”-destruction) or confront the “messenger,” and the immortal combatant will always defeat the mortal combatant.
The Geth, Saren, and the Quarians
Image IPB



We are immortal.

 
The Geth may be immortal, but they are not perfect (nor free). They have beliefs, conflicts, and false absolutes much in the same way organics do (see self-determination vs. accepting result, desire to create own purpose, and Shepard’s armor on Legion). Their beliefs are predicated on the observation that assimilation results in progress, and therefore must be the path to an absolute. Some aspects of human society are the result of a similar observation, that being that mutual cooperation results in greater gains than the participants could achieve on their own. Interestingly, they reach the same conclusion about freedom, albeit by different means.
Organics see freedom as something that can be achieved on the individual level and, as discussed earlier, they do this by ignoring the limitations of the individual.
The Geth see freedom as something that must come about when all are one, again reaching the conclusion that freedom can only be achieved by an individual intelligence.
Organics ignore the limitations of the individual, and say that freedom already exists. They do this because death proves that freedom does not exist.
Synthetics accept the limitations of the individual, and say that freedom will one day exist. They do this because death does not exist for them, and as such time is already irrelevant.
Both cultures do what they do because of their beliefs, and would be animals without them. It is again apparent why neither side would allow their beliefs to be destroyed: they both experience self-preservation.
 
As a side note, many point to the cooperation between the heretics and Saren, as well as between the Geth on Rannoch and the Quarians as evidence that synthetics and organics can cohabitate within each other’s culture. I’d like to point out that in both instances, the Geth in question were under the influence of the Reapers. The Saren example is obvious, but the Quarian example is less so. The Quarians did not make peace with the Geth, they made peace with the Geth that had Reaper upgrades which made them more organic. These Geth then immediately began interfacing with the Quarians.
Image IPB

In truth, the Quarian example does not show that Organics and Synthetics can coexist, but instead that Organics and Synthetics who think like Organics can coexist. All it really says is that an Organic made of Steel can cohabitate with an Organic made out of Flesh, which isn’t that shocking. In terms of the story, all it shows is that if Synthesized life ever found other life in other galaxies, there would not be inherent conflict.
Before we hit the Reapers, I’d like to take moment to talk about Indoctrination.
 
Indoctrination: A Misnomer?
Image IPB 



Listen to yourself! You’re Indoctrinated!

 
When Mass Effect 3 first came out, many people likened the feelings they had after the ending to indoctrination. They felt that the ending made everything they did pointless, and this led to feelings they associated with indoctrination. I don’t think this is too far from the mark.
 
Take a look back at what I posted in the philosophy section. If someone were to actually completely internalize that, that is, to completely disassociate from “reality,” they would look a lot like the “jibbering animals” that indoctrination leaves in its wake.
We are very quick to demonize indoctrination because it appears to take away our freedom. What if we never had that freedom though?
Perhaps the beginning stages of indoctrination are simply the Reaper equivalent of my opening paragraphs. Perhaps all the Reapers have to do is remind organic life of how pointless and ridiculous it is, and they have to do it on a primal level.
Point 2
This is because simply telling organic life that it is pointless will never work, as speaking to organic life gives weight to their inventions (language). You can’t tell organic life that it is pointless, because claiming a falsehood is no different than claiming a truth. This is why the ending was not accepted, why my thread won’t be accepted, and why Shepard and company weren’t indoctrinated when Sovereign told them they were pointless. The Reapers have to constantly engage subconscious fear, something thought and/or writing can never do (the body won’t allow it). This is the story that cannot be told.
Image IPB
This does explain some other things about indoctrination, such as why it only seems to affect organics (a being with no fear of death or strong belief in “truth,” such as a Matriarch or Shepard, would not succumb so easily to the suggestion that they were pointless), why all organics are at risk (all organics die), and why a Reaper who died millions of years before ****** sapiens existed was still able to turn them into husks. Indoctrination begins by weakening the thrall to a state that anything can be accepted, and then direction is given. Same thing with the opening section: if you actually internalized that, then you’d realize that there is no such thing as right or wrong, and as such, any action is the same as another. It’s a good thing for society that indoctrination technology doesn’t exist.
The Reapers, the Catalyst, and Singularity: An Answer to a Question with None

Image IPB




We are your salvation through destruction

 
At first glance, the Reapers may appear to be the singularity. Incredibly powerful artificial intelligences that appear to be capable of wiping out all life in the galaxy. The first hint that they were something less than the singularity came in Mass Effect 1, when it was revealed that the Reapers purposefully harvested life, instead of exterminating it out right. In addition, it was slowly revealed throughout the series that the Reapers were not dependent on any resources gained from the harvest. They gained ships, but they were never used to progress any further with the extinction than normal. The harvest itself appeared to be the end, not a means. This bias for preservation of organic life is not indicative of a singularity, and in fact is indicative of a mind that holds the same values as organic life.
Here’s a question: why bother preserving organic life? If organic life has an immortal soul, then you’re just drawing out the clock. If organic life is doomed to oblivion, then you’re just drawing out the clock. The truth is, the only reason we seek to preserve organic life is that we are organic life. Whoever made the Reapers and gave the Catalyst his directive did so because they saw value in organic life, and the only thing that values organic life is organic life. Therefore, whoever created the Cycle was an organic, trying to preserve organic life.
The next part is well known. The Catalyst determined that they only way to stave off the singularity from dominating the galaxy was to “prune” galactic civilization, and the Mass Relays and Citadel were created to facilitate this. So what are the Reapers if not the singularity?
 
Point 3
The Reapers are a form of technology that the Catalyst can control, and nothing more. Much as we can be sure our calculators will never rise up and kill us, the Catalyst has created a technology that he can contain. This presents the limit of his technology. The limit, however, is not sufficient to contain the singularity (For if the Reapers were perfect, they would be the singularity). The Reapers were not capable of removing all traces of civilization, and were not undefeatable in combat. Eventually, enough information leaked through the cycles that the Crucible was built and the Citadel activated. When Shepard stood before the Catalyst he not only proved that Organics could defeat the Reapers, but that the Singularity and extinction of organic life was inevitable, for even the Reapers could not prevent it.
In addition, the notion that Synthesis is the “Final Evolution” of Organic life makes sense; Synthesis is the end of organic evolution. Evolution does not lead to perfection, but it ends with death.
 
Destroy, Control, and Synthesis are the same (not a RGB statement :)
Image IPB




You have hope, more than you think.

 
If you’ve at least read my three “points” then you should be able to guess where I’m going with this. The completion of the Crucible proves that the singularity is unavoidable, and thus the Catalyst allows the Cycle to end. You are given three choices, but they all have the same result.
Destroy:
All the Reapers and Synthetics die. Eventually synthetics are built again, and the singularity destroys all organic life.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.
 
Control:
The Reapers are preserved and the cycle is stopped. Depending on how Shepard handles this power, the results could initially vary. If Shepard flies the Reapers into a sun, then the singularity will likely arise on a time-scale equivalent to destroy. If Shepard preserves the Reapers, then the singularity will eventually need to be confronted. Shepard could either attack the synthetics outright, and eventually lose a war of attrition, or restart the cycle, and eventually lose to another Shepard down the road (just as the Catalyst did). Eventually, the singularity destroys all organic life.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.
 
Synthesis:
All Organics and Synthetics are combined. organic life no longer exists in the galaxy.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.
 
Conclusions
If there is true meaning in this universe, then it has yet to be found. Organic concepts of ultimate truth are flawed, and created to give meaning to a meaningless existence. Synthetic life holds the concept that ultimate truth may exist some day, and thus it must be worked towards. If both beings are constrained by time, then the Synthetic viewpoint is the only one that makes sense.
Synthesis is thus the most “hopeful” ending in Mass Effect 3, and really the most hopeful ending of any game or story. It is the hope that one day meaning will be found, and existence can be justified. Not only that, but organic beings are given the choice to be a part of it, and the choice of immortality. Organic life no longer exists in our galaxy, but that is because organic life received that which it desired.
Synthetic life still does not know absolute truth, but it can hope that it will some day.
Will it? In my opinion no. For something to be truly free, it would have to not only have the capability to live forever, but also to exist regardless of circumstance. We only call certain patterns of energy and mass “alive,” and those patterns are inherently unstable. A synthetic who is capable of confining their minds to energy itself (something that cannot be destroyed ) would be stable, but it is not clear how that would constitute anything resembling life. In Mass Effect, AI’s are said to lose their personality when their blue boxes are moved, as they lose the specific quantum randomness that determined them. A being existing only as energy (not dependent on patterns or time) would be in that state of flux perpetually. A god may have absolute knowledge, but there is nothing to suggest that it would retain anything with which to act upon it.
 
Was Shepard Indoctrinated?
Perhaps. The “break-down” stage of Indoctrination I described could have definitely been in full swing by the time Shepard reached the crucible. Whether or not anything was “suggested” to him at this point is open to debate. I tend to think not, since the Catalyst made Shepard aware of all the options available, admitted defeat, and explained that Shepard would not have the “control” choice if he/she had been fully indoctrinated. The final decision was Shepard’s decision, even if that meant standing there until the Crucible was destroyed.  The fact that Shepard was near-death may have also allowed him/her to grasp the nature of mortality, and make the final decision from the standpoint of a true mortal.
So why did things go the way they did?
As I said earlier, Bioware touched on a subject that is in conflict with the doctrines of human civilization, namely, the idea that nothing really matters. In a game about choice affecting results (the quintessential method of human cognition), this could not have hit a more ill-prepared audience. Even though the destruction of meaning was immediately followed by the promise of meaning, few were capable of reconciling it with their reactions. Instead, Bioware was treated to a piece of existential rage from its fanbase, rage normally reserved gods, religions, and governments caught in their own lies.
Why did they do this?
Why does anyone make any decision? The fact is that it is very alluring to tell this story. This story makes all other stories null, and places itself as the only path to hope. The unfortunate thing here is that Mass Effect made us very attached to those other stories, much in the same way other forms of media attach us to the different stories we tell about our lives. People weren’t ready for it.
Of course, people can never be ready for the revelation that nothing matters. As soon as they are, they’re dead.
Given this information I think they chose this design decision because it would make Mass Effect special, in a way that other media could not be. Surely it hurt more than a movie ever could; actually feeling like you made decisions makes it hurt more when they are revealed to be meaningless. Personally, the ending did not make me happy, but I’d prefer it a thousand times to a conventional ending. It made me question what I believe, and question belief itself. Am I happier for it? No. But I’m not bored.
Perhaps that is why they did what they did. If the game ended on a happy note (as it very well could for the near future at least, see the threads in my sig), then no one would have sought out the deeper questions in the game. You could have slapped on a happy ending after the Crucible fired, and very few people would realize that the Singularity was still inevitable. This is why they could slap a happy ending on in the extended cut without changing the story. Our characters may live happy lives, but ultimately, those lives will end or be forgotten, regardless of the ending.
Unless synthesis leads to true meaning.
-Bromance
 
PS
With regards to life being meaningless,
I don’t think anyone can fully internalize the notion, but certainly anyone who did could no longer function in society. Still, it is a scary thought that we are all faced with. I have wondered why we developed the fear of death. We already have pain to ward off imminent death, and the fear produced by mortality is debilitating; it doesn’t make sense as something we developed to stay alive.
I’ve read an interesting theory that the Human Mind developed as it did because it was sexually selected for in the same way the peacock’s tail was. Namely “If I have a bigger brain, I can put on a bigger display, and attract more mates, thus producing more big-brained humans.”
Surely if other processes in our bodies are developed through evolution, then the process of thought must be also. Think about when you’re having a mortality freak-out. What do you do to remedy the situation? You immerse yourself in humanity, whether that be through a loved-one, media, or drugs. Given this, perhaps our mortal fears are a mechanism by which our body encourages us to stay with the group, to stay with a loved one. If that is the case, then Bioware really should have nutted up and put a whole lot more sex in the game. If this is what you’re trying to say, then just say it.
Regardless, I just added this because the thought comforted me, and I don’t have religion to fill that gap. Heh, fill the gap.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 31 mai 2012 - 07:01 .


#2
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages
Andrei Tarkovsky did this in his filmography.

thread/

#3
N7 ironman

N7 ironman
  • Members
  • 138 messages
*Starts to read thread*

*ADHD mode engaged*

*Gets distracted by something shiny*

#4
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages
You put a lot of thought into this. You're trying to polish a turd. And here I just thought it was a sci-fi action-adventure story. And it was for about 120 hrs 50 mins. Then starting at 120:51:00, Mac Walters decided he was going to get deep and give us the elevator to WTF? And the WTF lasts 10 minutes in game, and days afterward. He decided nihilism was cool because it seems to be the "in thing" today. Well, I got news. It's been the "in thing" so long it's a cliche.

The ending just left me empty. As it now stands Mass Effect 3 will be remembered as having the worst ending in gaming history. The ending does not fit with the rest of the story. Of course this will now depend upon the EC team. I am withholding final judgement pending the release of the EC.

You are given a choice of Ayn Rand, Brave New World, and The Matrix Reloaded (or The Sopranos) all leading to "Lost". And this is the "bitter" part of the ending. The "sweet" part is in the final photograph scene of the stargazer when he says "my sweet." No closure. It just ends. Bam. Your done. Buy DLC. Blech!

Regarding indoctrination. We're getting it on a daily basis. It's called the corporate media. They determine what we like, dislike, how we think, etc. We get disinformation about everything. Everything we read is spun to be from one point of view or another. It is extremely difficult to separate fact from spin. Then you throw in the religion and philosophical beliefs people have and you get a mess. But that one drone of information is constant. Example: for a while a major news network was spinning that a certain nations military protecting opium fields was a good thing, and people were buying into it. Indoctrination.

But screw this stuff. I play video games as an escape from this crap. I know people who are terminally ill who play video games as an escape. They don't want to be forced into this existential bull**** stuff. Yes, some of them played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Probably glad they didn't make it to ME3. The ME3 ending would have killed them.

I've said this in other threads. The plot to Mass Effect is cheesy, and this also is what makes it so damned fun to play. It's a winning formula. Shepard's dialog is filled with cheesy one-liners, especially starting in ME2 with the renegade interrupts which are a blast -- I never miss them. ME3 continues the tradition. Basically it's an "Arnold Movie" that's playable. You start with Arnold. You finish with Arnold. You don't get deep and philosophical with Arnold.

Instead Mac Walters decided to take the Charlie Sheen version of "winning" in the end.

#5
Samuel_Valkyrie

Samuel_Valkyrie
  • Members
  • 703 messages
Your metaphysical ramblings on the nature of science and logic are, as a student of philosphy, abominable. However, I stopped reading when you tried to talk Descartes. Clearly, you misunderstood Descartes: His aim was to find a single foundation on which to base true knowledge. A single thing that, even if everything else is a lie is still true.

"I think, therefore I am" means "Even if all that my senses tell me, all that I know, are not true, even if all that I THINK is untrue...there is still a thing, an 'I', that performs the act of thinking". That was the point of Descartes. Not whatever nonsense you're trying to say here.

Modifié par Samuel_Valkyrie, 31 mai 2012 - 03:24 .


#6
mupp3tz

mupp3tz
  • Members
  • 2 469 messages
I like these responses.

#7
What a Succulent Ass

What a Succulent Ass
  • Banned
  • 5 568 messages
...Now I mean this in the least offensive way possible when I say this is just a lot of fauxlosophical nihilistic rambling.

#8
Leafs43

Leafs43
  • Members
  • 2 526 messages
The story was fine up until the end.


The end just went off tangent.

#9
DRTJR

DRTJR
  • Members
  • 1 806 messages
The answer to Legion's question is, Yes. it is my belief that if you posses the mental faculties to contemplate that question then you do posses one. The reaper code upgrade isn't making them "more organic" it made each Geth program run faster and better, as such they individually could ask the question as such while the Consensus may continue, the Geth are now a race different yet similar in their knowledge.

#10
Yoshiyuki Ly

Yoshiyuki Ly
  • Members
  • 773 messages
This is a story that can be told. Chaos vs. Order is a theme that has been told and retold so many times throughout history. I agree that Bioware at least attempted to tell this story. The delivery was off the mark at times, but the point was not lost upon me. I appreciated your metaphysics here, even if it was unnecessary.

#11
Kunari801

Kunari801
  • Members
  • 3 581 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You put a lot of thought into this. You're trying to polish a turd. And here I just thought it was a sci-fi action-adventure story. And it was for about 120 hrs 50 mins. Then starting at 120:51:00, Mac Walters decided he was going to get deep and give us the elevator to WTF? And the WTF lasts 10 minutes in game, and days afterward. He decided nihilism was cool because it seems to be the "in thing" today. Well, I got news. It's been the "in thing" so long it's a cliche.

The ending just left me empty. As it now stands Mass Effect 3 will be remembered as having the worst ending in gaming history. The ending does not fit with the rest of the story. Of course this will now depend upon the EC team. I am withholding final judgement pending the release of the EC.

You are given a choice of Ayn Rand, Brave New World, and The Matrix Reloaded (or The Sopranos) all leading to "Lost". And this is the "bitter" part of the ending. The "sweet" part is in the final photograph scene of the stargazer when he says "my sweet." No closure. It just ends. Bam. Your done. Buy DLC. Blech!

Regarding indoctrination. We're getting it on a daily basis. It's called the corporate media. They determine what we like, dislike, how we think, etc. We get disinformation about everything. Everything we read is spun to be from one point of view or another. It is extremely difficult to separate fact from spin. Then you throw in the religion and philosophical beliefs people have and you get a mess. But that one drone of information is constant. Example: for a while a major news network was spinning that a certain nations military protecting opium fields was a good thing, and people were buying into it. Indoctrination.

But screw this stuff. I play video games as an escape from this crap. I know people who are terminally ill who play video games as an escape. They don't want to be forced into this existential bull**** stuff. Yes, some of them played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Probably glad they didn't make it to ME3. The ME3 ending would have killed them.

I've said this in other threads. The plot to Mass Effect is cheesy, and this also is what makes it so damned fun to play. It's a winning formula. Shepard's dialog is filled with cheesy one-liners, especially starting in ME2 with the renegade interrupts which are a blast -- I never miss them. ME3 continues the tradition. Basically it's an "Arnold Movie" that's playable. You start with Arnold. You finish with Arnold. You don't get deep and philosophical with Arnold.

Instead Mac Walters decided to take the Charlie Sheen version of "winning" in the end.


Well, I was going to post a message like the above but that covers everything I was going to say so... I'll just say ^-THAT!

#12
Guest_Opsrbest_*

Guest_Opsrbest_*
  • Guests
I like to think of the Geth as gender confused robots. Really, there is no better definition for them as they are. The flaw in ME3 as a pseudo-philosophical interpretation is the fact that the Geth are endowed with, and for some reason exhibit, the same identity crisis that inhabits most organic beings.

I think there for I am. I exist in my own recognition that the truth I know is both infallible and exact to the nature and design that I perceive. That does not apply to the evaluation of what the mathematical process or equivalence to what a computer processor does. There is no thought or relation to the mythical "what if" question that exists for organics. The Geth are, as with any VI or AI sentience, not an anomaly to the structure of life. They have no evolutionary basis. They exist as an impermeable fact, the absolute of creation that can be conceived, the perfect answer to the question of creation. A synthetic life exists because it was created, because the anomaly of organic design chose to create it. Who chose to create life for organics? No one knows. We estimate through religion that our existence is the cause of a higher being only to facilitate the answer to the question that we already have, the question the Geth are imposed upon, the question of creation.

As a life form, down to the smallest form, there is a function for its purpose and its creation. Science dictates that. Nothing can exist without providing a function and being the result of a separate function, or cause and effect.

Machines are the basis of synthetics. The Geth can exist in an open reality consistent to the platform that they inhabit. Just as any VI or AI can, yet that differs from organics. We exist only in what we know. One form, one perception, one mass.

So the formality that creates the basis for what organics perceive as life is only dictated by what we can perceive, and since we can not perceive life outside of our bodies, we have the question why do we exist. The Geth do not suffer from that issue. They exist in a mobile platform, they exist as data on a storage server, they are perpetually connected to each other, they are not confined by the individual. They are unified. If you remove a geth from its platform is it dead? No it isn't. If the Geth can move to a separate location outside of the threat to its physical form, if it is attributed the idea of immortality, as the Geth are, they can not die. Which by definition makes them higher then any organic life and thusly outside of the question of creation.

So we then have the Geth, existence in unlimited notion, that become true AI. They perceive for themselves the truest question of it all, of what all life is, what am I and why do I exist. And regardless of the answer that you can come up with they are a machine, the exist to serve a function, and are the result of another sentience creation.

The Geth are Gender confused or to be precise Species confused. In ME3 the Geth who by all rights should know their creation as it would have been a part of their original programming, the statement as to why they exist, come to question their creation. They are given an organic identity, before they can be considered organic. And that is the ultimate flaw in ME3. That the endings itself enforces.

We do not kill organics. We harvest them an create them into the form of a Reaper. We make them greater then they are as the individual and unify them as one. The Prothean Empire enslaved races to create one civilization. They unified the whole as diverse as it was to make it one. They operate on an organic understanding. And only one of them exists as an actual organic. They are referred to as the Geth are shown.

Legion asks does this unit have a soul. And the answer is no. Legion existed to serve a function, as all Geth but they were given the premise that they did not know what it meant to be in existence, they did not know why they existed, or why they were created. The Geth as Legion asks, and as we find in the consensus server were given an organic identity before they could be considered organic. They are the many that attempt to operate and understand as one. As an individual.

So we have Soveriegns mighty lines. We are the pinnacle of evolution and whatever the rest of his lines are that are reinforced by Harbinger and the Catalyst. The essence of the one. We exist from the many as one. And that's all the game tries to tell you. The Geth, the Reapers, the Protheans, all exist as one comprised of many. I am the Catalyst, I control the Reapers, they are MY solution, we exists for this reason, and more ramblings of whatever the **** he says. The many that exist as one, created by one to impose a law against the chaos. An absolute that exists in organic understanding. The absolute that is: I think therefore I am.

So in ME3 we venture of into the world of uniting the galaxy to stop the Reapers. By uniting and being one. One action, one movement, one understanding. That is the Theme of ME3, ME2, and ME1. The existence as life comprised by the many into the one. It is the synthesis option.

So as we near the end of ME3 we are given the choice; to merge, destroy or control. Any of the options are viable, only one of them follows the Theme of the series. The other two are the understanding that we as the player have of the question of our existence. Destroy follows the plot of the series, kill the Reapers. The Control option follows a combination of the theme and plot in that it is based on the one becoming the many. Shepard as the main character in the entire series. Nothing can exist or be done so it seems, outside of Arrival which is a plot device of ME3, without Shepard.

Three options, three choices, three pseudo-philosophical endings to chose from. And all three of them end in the same result. If you read all that then good job. I am sure you realized many words back that I lost the full intent and idea that I had when writing this.

There is no great truth or question of existence that is being asked in ME3. It is simply a question of perception. Or the implication of a gender confused robot asking if it has a soul.

#13
MyChemicalBromance

MyChemicalBromance
  • Members
  • 2 020 messages

Opsrbest wrote...

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your inflection, but it seems like you're suggesting that the Geth were absolutely sure of their purpose prior to Mass Effect 3. I'd remind you of the worship we saw on Feros, the Geth division over ideals, and Legion's wearing of Shepard's armor are all pre-ME3 examples of the Geth not being completely aware of their "purpose." In fact, Legion's statements in Mass Effect 2 proclaiming the Geth's acceptance of their purpose is the outlier in the series, not the norm. Of course, the Geth who gave us the pre-ME3 examples were seperated from the larger whole, so perhaps the question "why am I here" still exists in the "less-complete" Geth. This is evidenced further by the fact that early Geth were concerned with the notion of a "soul."

I agree with you that the Geth seem "species-confused", but it didn't start in Mass Effect 3.

#14
mass perfection

mass perfection
  • Members
  • 2 253 messages
I laughed at how you described Synthesis.

#15
MyChemicalBromance

MyChemicalBromance
  • Members
  • 2 020 messages

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

Your metaphysical ramblings on the nature of science and logic are, as a student of philosphy, abominable.

Good. If a construct as doctrine-filled as western-philosophy was wholly consistant with what I wrote then I'd know my own biases against society had caused me to misjudge societies approximation of truth.

"I think, therefore I am" means "Even if all that my senses tell me, all that I know, are not true, even if all that I THINK is untrue...there is still a thing, an 'I', that performs the act of thinking". That was the point of Descartes. Not whatever nonsense you're trying to say here.


I understand what he was trying to say, and it's based on a false premise. Or, more correctly, the assumption that the statement means anything is based on a false premise. Descartes fails to explain why there is still an "I" that performs the act of thinking. Why does "I" have to exist for thought to exist? Any answer I can see is based in faith.

#16
PsyrenY

PsyrenY
  • Members
  • 5 238 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But screw this stuff. I play video games as an escape from this crap. I know people who are terminally ill who play video games as an escape. They don't want to be forced into this existential bull**** stuff. Yes, some of them played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Probably glad they didn't make it to ME3. The ME3 ending would have killed them.

I've said this in other threads. The plot to Mass Effect is cheesy, and this also is what makes it so damned fun to play. It's a winning formula. Shepard's dialog is filled with cheesy one-liners, especially starting in ME2 with the renegade interrupts which are a blast -- I never miss them. ME3 continues the tradition. Basically it's an "Arnold Movie" that's playable. You start with Arnold. You finish with Arnold. You don't get deep and philosophical with Arnold.


"Arnold Movie" is perhaps the most disgusting term I've heard used to describe an RPG in my life. Anything that Mac did to make you deem ME3 unworthy of the moniker was justified in my eyes.

#17
Doc Prep

Doc Prep
  • Members
  • 17 messages
Well I liked the pictures

#18
JyrikGauldy

JyrikGauldy
  • Members
  • 373 messages
Theres no way i was gonna read this beast

#19
ardensia

ardensia
  • Members
  • 424 messages
 OP, I think you make a lot of good points here.

I don't know that it's a story that can't be told, but I also strongly believe that it's one that is not likely to work with their target, and primarily Western, audience. I'd love to get ahold of some reviews from fans in Japan or China, or somewhere else where the good of the whole is placed above the good of the individual, but I'm too lazy to either hunt those down or learn the requisite languages.

Western culture is steeped in the idea of self-determination. We create our own path, carve our own destiny, and no one, not God nor the Man nor our own parents, can tell us differently. No matter what obstacles we face, we can overcome and stand on top. And we can do it our way.

It's in our movies. It's in our books. It's in our songs. You can achieve anything, if you just set your mind on it.

But it's a lie and an illusion. There are too many thngs we can't account for. We can only account for our reaction to them. Just as in Mass Effect we don't so much affect the grand situations as we affect our reaction to them. Sometimes those reactions have long-standing consequences. Sometimes they don't.

Perhaps the most strong example of this is the rachni queen. Shepard runs into her by pure coincidence. If Benezia had been in a different place or had never found out about the queen, Shepard probably would have never found out about the rachni queen's existence. If Binary Helix hadn't found the egg in the first place, or if they had decided to do something with it aside from attempt to create supersoldiers, ME1 would have needed a rather different plot to achieve the same ends.

And even if you kill her, you still end up fighting rachni in ME3. The only thing we have control over is how Shepard reacts to these situations, and even then we're bound by the restrictions of the game. There was no option to call the council before releasing/destroying the queen in ME1. There was no option to put the queen out of her misery before you leave the caves on Utukku in ME3.

So, why bother to free the queen in ME1 at all?

Because at the time we were making that decision, we had hope. We hoped she would stick to her word, and perhaps even help us in the future. (Or maybe we're sadists and hoped we'd get to kill more rachni... but that's still a hope.) We're lucky enough to see that hope pay off in ME3 when she offers troops to help us, but it's only when we learn what happens if we killed her that this really means anything, as the rachni queen that appears in ME3 if you killed the one in ME1 turns on you and takes out some of your forces in the process. Maybe we don't get a cinematic for it, but it's a pretty big difference.

So what about the end? Shepard again finds herself in a place she did not ask to be making a decision she has no right to make, all because of outside forces she had no way of knowing about or predicting. None of the options are ideal. One can argue that none of them are even good.

But we have hope. And while I personally agree with the statement that Synthesis provides the most hope for prettymuch the reasons laid out in the OP, one doesn't have to look very far in the forums to see why other people find hope in the other options. And given how much the end is left open to interpretation, I don't think they are necessarily wrong.

Is the ending really nihilistic? Yes, even the greatest deeds will be forgotten, and the details get muddied over time, but that final choice defines the hope you have for the galaxy,. The effects of that choice will be felt in ever-dying ripples that start as a tsunami. But that initial tsunami can irrevocably change the landscape for generations to come... for so long that people forget the original force behind it. And maybe they build over it or make it so it was never there, but who can say? That is beyond the scope of our existence.

How nihilistic it is depends on the importance you put on what we can see, what is here and now and immediately surrounding. Does this all matter if it will all eventually fade to black?

That, I guess, would be a story that can't be told, just as one cannot be indoctrinated by a simple speech. It is a journey we must take ourselves, within ourselves.

#20
The Cheat

The Cheat
  • Members
  • 146 messages
Harbinger > Collector General during Arrival.

Don't really give a damn about the post's content after reading it, though. I've got enough things to "think" about without triggering a self-imposed "mortality crisis" as you like to call it. We all face life in our own ways. Perception.

#21
tomcplotts

tomcplotts
  • Members
  • 593 messages
well, post at least runs up the bandwith bill. Isn't that a victory of sorts?

#22
Jostle

Jostle
  • Members
  • 168 messages

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

I understand what he was trying to say, and it's based on a false premise. Or, more correctly, the assumption that the statement means anything is based on a false premise. Descartes fails to explain why there is still an "I" that performs the act of thinking. Why does "I" have to exist for thought to exist? Any answer I can see is based in faith.


Well, there's nothing really wrong with faith. Faith, like time, morality, justice, and all those other things you talked about above is an invention of humans. Faith is a requisite for a lot of beliefs, and here we are, after all, being humans.

I rather enjoyed your OP overall. I liked that you took a distinctly disparate viewpoint of synthesis, yet stated it held onto the most hope (something not easy to quantify), I liked that you seemed passionate about the ending despite the fact that it ultimately made you unhappy, and I liked the fact that you included a link to "Closer" and ended with a set joke.

I have to disagree with one point you seem to be making with organics and synthetics re:freedom, though. You said it yourself, compared to absolute freedom, comparing the freedom I have to that of a slave's is pointless. Saying that synthetics possess more freedom than organics due to being free from death (by age... Maybe...) isn't really saying anything at all. They are still so far from divine freedom that it hardly matters. There is also the matter of the price of that freedom. Some geth admire organic characteristics that they cannot attain, but may be able to merely emulate. Is their freedom of our idea of mortality worth more freedom points than our freedom to laugh?

In any case, I really like how you made the end work out for you. I happen to hold a firm beleif contrary to that of "nothing matters" (in fact, I beleive everything matters, even if we all end up dead or in the same place we "would have" if things hadn't happened the way they did, but it doesn't matter, because they had to happen that way and now I'm getting off topic...). So that doesn't really work for me. It was still refreshing to experience this topic, regardless of whether or not I agree with the conclusions it built. But seriously, synthesis as the final evolution: that bit really had me!

#23
Guest_Opsrbest_*

Guest_Opsrbest_*
  • Guests

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your inflection, but it seems like you're suggesting that the Geth were absolutely sure of their purpose prior to Mass Effect 3. I'd remind you of the worship we saw on Feros, the Geth division over ideals, and Legion's wearing of Shepard's armor are all pre-ME3 examples of the Geth not being completely aware of their "purpose." In fact, Legion's statements in Mass Effect 2 proclaiming the Geth's acceptance of their purpose is the outlier in the series, not the norm. Of course, the Geth who gave us the pre-ME3 examples were seperated from the larger whole, so perhaps the question "why am I here" still exists in the "less-complete" Geth. This is evidenced further by the fact that early Geth were concerned with the notion of a "soul."

I agree with you that the Geth seem "species-confused", but it didn't start in Mass Effect 3.

To a degree the geth did know their purpose in me1. It wasn't until me2/3 that the geth were humanized. Both me1/2 the majority of the geth served the reapers out of self survival. 

#24
Thornne

Thornne
  • Members
  • 831 messages
I'm not sure the ending is a "Story That Cannot Be Told".

I am sure it cannot be told in the 14-odd lines of dialogue, tacked on to the end of a different story altogether.

#25
MyChemicalBromance

MyChemicalBromance
  • Members
  • 2 020 messages

Random Jerkface wrote...

...Now I mean this in the least offensive way possible when I say this is just a lot of fauxlosophical nihilistic rambling.


Don't worry, that statement actually helped me write the "short version."

Also, if I was truly nihilistic, you couldn't offend me anyway. Any offense I take is my own fault for housing nihilism; something that the writers are hopefully aware of.