192 réponses à ce sujet

[Davik Kang]

I'm glad this thread was bumped, as I never would have seen it otherwise.  The OP is a really interesting analysis of the possible ideas behind the ME story, and ties this in nicely with why so many people hated it.  It is delicately worded and tackles a complicated idea without ever really rambling.  I don't necessarily agree with everything that was said, but none of this would be interesting if we all agreed on everything.

Also wanted to congratulate the OP on repsonding to every comment, praise or criticism, whilst somehow avoidinghaving the thread turned into a flame war or troll-fest.  I have much to learn.  Maybe it's because you are able to make concise points which are remarkably well thought out, but also worded without being intellectually elitist, so that we can all understand what you're saying and what point you're trying to make.

From a personal selfish POV, thanks for posting this

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
http://badassdigest....-mass-effect-3/

Basically, I agree with this guy and am relieved to have read it, so I know that at least someone else thinks the same.

Keep up the good work OP, threads like this make BSN worthwhile.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They wrote a crappy ending and now they're trying to explain it and justify it with DLC. It doesn't work that way. The way it works is by writing a good solid ending in the first place.

[Dr_Extrem]

RogueBot wrote...

Bioware certainly seems to have a nihilistic attitude towards the future of their company, judging by their last 3 releases.

roguebot hits critically

[Dr_Extrem]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They wrote a crappy ending and now they're trying to explain it and justify it with DLC. It doesn't work that way. The way it works is by writing a good solid ending in the first place.

we will get the real ending with the new game. sad but true.

[Iakus]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They wrote a crappy ending and now they're trying to explain it and justify it with DLC. It doesn't work that way. The way it works is by writing a good solid ending in the first place.

we will get the real ending with the new game. sad but true.

I wouldn't count on it.  That supposes I'm willing to buy another Mass Effect game. 

[Dr_Extrem]

iakus wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They wrote a crappy ending and now they're trying to explain it and justify it with DLC. It doesn't work that way. The way it works is by writing a good solid ending in the first place.

we will get the real ending with the new game. sad but true.

I wouldn't count on it.  That supposes I'm willing to buy another Mass Effect game. 

they need a canon ending, that leaves options for story progression. the ending we have, are difficult to work with and canonising one of the endings will p**s off a lot of people.

one of the reasons i am very sceptical about future mass effect titles, is the way the writers handled the endings and shepards "retirement" - it is inconsistent and throwing bones (breathe scene) is more insulting, than helping.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...

Nah, they simply told an incoherent story that they were winging at every turn.

[SavagelyEpic]

Okay... What.

Dr_Extrem wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

Bioware certainly seems to have a nihilistic attitude towards the future of their company, judging by their last 3 releases.

roguebot hits critically

Lol'd at this.

[DeepChild]

AlanC9 wrote...

DeepChild wrote...

Any argument I've seen that seeks to refute this has at its core the idea that "we cannot know everything, therefore we cannot know anything for certain".  In effect this removes all value from knowledge or thought.  Why would one who believes such a thing bother to debate?  Why think at all?  

Because it's not necessary or even particularly useful to find "truth." An approximation that works better than what you had before is still more useful even if it isn't "true."

Of course it isn't necessary to find the truth to achieve a useful approximation.  It is necessary to accept that there is a truth to be found and to look for it.

[clennon8]

I'm with iakus. I didn't expect an ending that confirmed my values. I expected an ending that was compatible with everything that preceded it. Again, what strikes me about a lot of the Synth supporters is that they liked the ending precisely because it ISN'T compatible with everything that preceded it. "Ooh, this is the complete opposite of everything the story was about, therefore it's DEEP. Don't you Neanderthals understand?"

Modifié par clennon8, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Xerxes Black]

Too high of expectations? (sorry won't let me quote/reply to anyone). For evidence to the contrary I will point to the endings of ME1, ME2, and DA Origins. I especially want to point out Da Origin's ending. Had a similar scenario (Blight here to kill everyone, must unite peoples to fight together for a chance at survival) and offered multiple endings that not only spring boarded the game into a future series that can adapt to all of them seamlessly, but catered to various wants (happy ending, bittersweet, tragic, death).

It can be done, has been done, and will be done in the further. Clever, talented writers can make it work, and work well. They can leave the audience mystified and satisfied with what has just occurred. I know Bioware has some great writers in their myst. I cannot look at some of the dialogue and story of previous games and think otherwise. This is why so many people saw the ending to ME3 and feel the way they do. Because they know Bioware could have done so much better, that they have done so much better, but failed miserably here. EC did nothing but clarify how utterly they failed.

Just to be clear, I could feel the build-up that Shepard was going to die there at the end. They all but wrote it on every single wall in that game. I was/am ok with that. What I was/am/will never be ok with is how they took a previously well build character, universe, plot, and story; and dues ex machina'ed it without regard to the character's common sense and previous games lore.

The star child is identical to both the original cild that died and the later appearances in Shepard's dreams and no comment is made on that topic!?!? The instance I saw the star child alarm bells of "It's A TRAP!" where going off like crazy.

I apologize for that long rant. Thanks for reading.

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And I could have lived with an ending as open as the original ones, if that suggestion of a dark age hadn't existed. We both needed the ending to be compatible with some ideas:
For you: I can imagine that I won with honor
For me: I can imagine that civilization is not reset to the galactic stone age.

The difference is that the EC gave me what I needed, but left you hanging.

True dat

[AlanC9]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

iakus wrote...

I wouldn't count on it.  That supposes I'm willing to buy another Mass Effect game. 

they need a canon ending, that leaves options for story progression. the ending we have, are difficult to work with and canonising one of the endings will p**s off a lot of people.

And throwing a new ending in that none of us got..... wouldn't "p**s off a lot of people?"

[MyChemicalBromance]

Reply wave inbound.

inko1nsiderate wrote...

I like the way you think MyChemicalBromance. That isn't much to add to this discussion, but the way you describe the inherent synthetic/organic conflict seems to be mirrored by Javik's thoughts on the matter.

You can imagine how excited I was when I found this (which I think is what you’re referencing).

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I'm gonna be honest OP, when I read your title the first thing that came to mind was, Ramble On by Led Zeppelin. '...the tale that can't be told..."

Didn’t think of that, I like that song though.

Biotic Sage wrote...

 And yes this is scary, but not nearly as scary to me as engaging in willful blindness to the truth that the universe is unknowable and that objective meaning is nonexistent. Heh, ironically this itself is the only "truth."

Which would be a problem, but knowing what you don't know is impossible. This, and how "real" time may or may not be are where I'm hitting barriers right now.

So in short: great read, OP.  I would congratulate you on working so hard to write it, but we both know that it was inevitable for your cognitive processes to churn out this little gem because it is in your nature.

Thanks!... wait, I mean, yes? Lol.

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Where have I read this thread before?

I didn’t bump it!* Cosmic did!
*this time

Ieldra2 wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
"Don't you understand? You've lost. Everyone you know and love, everyone you've ever met; you will all die."

Yeah....and the heat death of the universe will eventually annihilate everything every civilization has ever made.

I ask again: So what? Do we need eternity? Are we all going to kill ourselves just because we know that ultimately nothing matters? Isn't it enough that some things matter - for ourselves, for a time, until we die?

That wasn’t a direct reply to what you said; I just found it fitting for the thread.
As for the “are we all going to kill ourselves” comment, I think the biggest revelation if you accept this (the OP’s) school of thinking is that no action is better than another. Therefore, killing yourself is just as pointless as living, and any person’s given way of life is just as valid as another persons. In that sense, we are in total agreement that choosing to create your own meaning (which we all do) is a valid way to exist. It just isn’t absolute validity.
 

CosmicGnosis wrote...
 We are dealing with a nihilistic entity on an impossible mission.

I'd be lying if I said that statement didn't make me grin like a maniac.
 

Davik Kang wrote...
  Maybe it's because you are able to make concise points which are remarkably well thought out, but also worded without being intellectually elitist, so that we can all understand what you're saying and what point you're trying to make.

To be honest, I don’t know much of anything about the doctrine of philosophy (the fact that “Nihilism” even has doctrine is frustrating to me), and the social sciences aren't exactly my forte anyway. (my major is Nuclear Engineering). I didn’t even know what nihilism was until ARandomJerkFace’s comment on page one forced me to look it up.
That said, if your goal is to increase understanding, then ornate vocabulary hardly seems like a good route to take. I’m sure there are some good reasons for it in that field, but it’s really hard to believe it serves any other purpose than elitism.

[AlanC9]

DeepChild wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Because it's not necessary or even particularly useful to find "truth." An approximation that works better than what you had before is still more useful even if it isn't "true."

Of course it isn't necessary to find the truth to achieve a useful approximation.  It is necessary to accept that there is a truth to be found and to look for it.

Why not just look for something a little more useful, and leave questions about ultimate truth to the priests and so forth.

[AlanC9]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

That said, if your goal is to increase understanding, then ornate vocabulary hardly seems like a good route to take. I’m sure there are some good reasons for it in that field, but it’s really hard to believe it serves any other purpose than elitism.

I've done some time in the social sciences. And a lot of the time, ithe purpose of replacing clarity with jargon is elitism. Other times, it's rent-seeking.

[Nightwriter]

Nihilism. Ew.

[CosmicGnosis]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nihilism. Ew.

Surely the ending left you feeling empty inside.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They wrote a crappy ending and now they're trying to explain it and justify it with DLC. It doesn't work that way. The way it works is by writing a good solid ending in the first place.

we will get the real ending with the new game. sad but true.

I wouldn't count on it.  That supposes I'm willing to buy another Mass Effect game. 

they need a canon ending, that leaves options for story progression. the ending we have, are difficult to work with and canonising one of the endings will p**s off a lot of people.

one of the reasons i am very sceptical about future mass effect titles, is the way the writers handled the endings and shepards "retirement" - it is inconsistent and throwing bones (breathe scene) is more insulting, than helping.

This is true. They need a canon to continue.

Leviathan when looked at from one standpoint just trashed Synthesis.
* Why does the Leviathan still think that creating the AI was a good idea? Because it still thinks it can come up with a better solution.
* What is that solution? Synthesis.
* if each race still retains their main properties, then which race benefits the most? Leviathans.
* Note that when Shepard asks "Then there will be peace?" The catalyst responds "the harvest will end."
* The Leviathans will no longer need the orbs to dominate their thralls. Every race can now be a thrall including the reapers.

Control will get trashed with Omega. This leaves Destroy.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nihilism. Ew.

Agreed.

[Davik Kang]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
That said, if your goal is to increase understanding, then ornate vocabulary hardly seems like a good route to take. I’m sure there are some good reasons for it in that field, but it’s really hard to believe it serves any other purpose than elitism.

If you're speaking amongst people with the same vocabularly, then such ornate language can be very useful, e.g. for efficiency and/or precision.  It becomes elitist (or, more often imo, just comprises a poorly-made argument) when such language is used in a situation where a significant proportion (not even necessarily the majority) of the readers / listeners are unlikely to be familiar with the terms used.

[MyChemicalBromance]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

 

CosmicGnosis wrote...
 We are dealing with a nihilistic entity on an impossible mission.

I'd be lying if I said that statement didn't make me grin like a maniac.
 

I had a funny idea about this: What if Shepard's the nihilist?

What do nihilists do? They run around and tell everyone the reaper is coming, and no one wants to listen to them because society is pointless before the reaper.

Thing is, when Shepard finally got to meet the reaper, it turned out to believe in meaning more than anyone, but Shepard took that meaning away from it. Shepard made the Catalyst nihilistic. He/she taught it how to die. Maybe that's what machines don't/can't understand.

I'm not going to try and draw any bigger conclusion from this, but it is fun wordplay.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

wait a moment...

Thanatos
"Ancient Greece found Death to be inevitable, and, therefore, he is not represented as purely evil. He is often portrayed as a bearded and winged man, but has also been portrayed as a young boy."
"[Thanatos] has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods."

...

[CosmicGnosis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

 

CosmicGnosis wrote...
 We are dealing with a nihilistic entity on an impossible mission.

I'd be lying if I said that statement didn't make me grin like a maniac.
 

I had a funny idea about this: What if Shepard's the nihilist?

What do nihilists do? They run around and tell everyone the reaper is coming, and no one wants to listen to them because society is pointless before the reaper.

Thing is, when Shepard finally got to meet the reaper, it turned out to believe in meaning more than anyone, but Shepard took that meaning away from it. Shepard made the Catalyst nihilistic. He/she taught it how to die. Maybe that's what machines don't/can't understand.

I'm not going to try and draw any bigger conclusion from this, but it is fun wordplay.

Shepard kept running around and declaring that a powerful force was coming that would render everything everyone ever knew as utterly meaningless.

As for synthetics and death, the geth really don't seem to like it. So they might understand something about it.

[CosmicGnosis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

wait a moment...

Thanatos
"Ancient Greece found Death to be inevitable, and, therefore, he is not represented as purely evil. He is often portrayed as a bearded and winged man, but has also been portrayed as a young boy."
"[Thanatos] has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods."

...

...So the final choices:

Ignore Death?
Become Death?
Embrace Death?

This is getting weird.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:44 .