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[MyChemicalBromance]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Leviathan when looked at from one standpoint just trashed Synthesis.
* Why does the Leviathan still think that creating the AI was a good idea? Because it still thinks it can come up with a better solution.
* What is that solution? Synthesis.
* if each race still retains their main properties, then which race benefits the most? Leviathans.
* Note that when Shepard asks "Then there will be peace?" The catalyst responds "the harvest will end."
* The Leviathans will no longer need the orbs to dominate their thralls. Every race can now be a thrall including the reapers.

Control will get trashed with Omega. This leaves Destroy.

The Leviathans don't need the orbs in the first place; they're more like signal boosters. They evolved that ability without tech. And the Leviathan says that they use them for study.

And indoctrination only works on organics; there's nothing to suggest it would or would not work on the new synthetics.

And ultimately, I have to disagree with this theory based on established motives. The Leviathans wanted to protect organic life, thus the Catalyst and thus the Reapers. Synthesis ends organic life, and is thus a bigger rebuke of the Leviathans than any of the other choices.


Also, both Control and Synthesis have already been associated with two of the most prominent villains in the series. Anyone who was going to shy away from controversy has already done so.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

wait a moment...

Thanatos
"Ancient Greece found Death to be inevitable, and, therefore, he is not represented as purely evil. He is often portrayed as a bearded and winged man, but has also been portrayed as a young boy."
"[Thanatos] has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods."

...

...So the final choices:

Ignore Death?
Become Death?
Embrace Death?

This is getting weird.

Embrace Eternity

[George Costanza]

As much as I really enjoy reading these in depth pieces on the ins and outs of the ending, what is most tragic to me, is that there's nothing deep or thought provoking in there. It's just a lazy, badly written story. These pieces give too much credit to the writers by implying a higher level of thought went into the product.

Modifié par George Costanza, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Davik Kang]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
wait a moment...

Thanatos
"Ancient Greece found Death to be inevitable, and, therefore, he is not represented as purely evil. He is often portrayed as a bearded and winged man, but has also been portrayed as a young boy."
"[Thanatos] has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods."...

Interesting that you brought this up, as the 'random Reaper noise' they make when they shoot stuff (and the last thing Shep hears before being nearly blasted at the end of the beam run) sounds a lot like Xanatos / Thantos to me...

[MyChemicalBromance]

Ieldra2 wrote...

But however we've dealt with it, we have all become a little more alone in the universe after ME3's ending, because we have felt the existential void on our skin.

I think you make a lot of good points about the way humans react to crises. Probably the best reinforcement for you theory is the fact that we all fled to these forums to sort out what happened.

When I first finished it, I saw that my friends were on, friends who were all waiting for me to finish the game so we could talk about it (I wasn't able to play the game until two weeks after it came out).

I had two conflicting urges. On one hand, I wanted to go talk to them, on the other, I wanted to let the feeling (void) I had linger. Eventually, I went to them, and after that I came here. It was such a strong feeling to not be alone.

 Eventually I chased down that feeling though, and about a month later this thread came out. It's funny: I just found my first (post-ME3) thread. I can see the beginning of this thread in some of my replies. That feels so long ago.

I think I'm going to take a break from this site for awhile; I've got a lot of school work to do, and having nihilistic thoughts floating in my head doesn't make fluid mechanics any easier. I'll probably be back some time in December.

Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion, and have a good N7 day! Hopefully Omega is good as well.

-Bromance

[CosmicGnosis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

I think I'm going to take a break from this site for awhile; I've got a lot of school work to do, and having nihilistic thoughts floating in my head doesn't make fluid mechanics any easier.

WHAT IS IT ALL FOR?????

[CosmicGnosis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

If you’ve at least read my three “points” then you should be able to guess where I’m going with this. The completion of the Crucible proves that the singularity is unavoidable, and thus the Catalyst allows the Cycle to end. You are given three choices, but they all have the same result.
Destroy:
All the Reapers and Synthetics die. Eventually synthetics are built again, and the singularity destroys all organic life.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.
 
Control:
The Reapers are preserved and the cycle is stopped. Depending on how Shepard handles this power, the results could initially vary. If Shepard flies the Reapers into a sun, then the singularity will likely arise on a time-scale equivalent to destroy. If Shepard preserves the Reapers, then the singularity will eventually need to be confronted. Shepard could either attack the synthetics outright, and eventually lose a war of attrition, or restart the cycle, and eventually lose to another Shepard down the road (just as the Catalyst did). Eventually, the singularity destroys all organic life.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.
 
Synthesis:
All Organics and Synthetics are combined. organic life no longer exists in the galaxy.
End Result: A Galaxy full of Synthetics.

Didn't Lovecraft believe that if we learned too much, we would eventually discover some terrible truth about the universe and our existence that would sink us into despair? The ME3 ending kind of fits that, I think. When we finally speak to the master of the Reapers, we discover that they were actually needed all along. Without them, we would not exist. Shepard learns about the grim reality of the galaxy, and the inevitable doom of organic life.

Even Drew Karpyshyn's old ending idea fits this perspective. Shepard discovers that the Reapers are trying to save the universe from a dark energy build-up. He can either choose to destroy the Reapers and hope that the galaxy finds a new solution, or choose to allow the Reapers to harvest humanity and increase the odds of finding a solution. This ending is arguably more gloomy than the current one.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:32 .

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, it's possible that if anything, Bioware softened up on their initial plan(s), seeing how much we love the universe and its characters.

[CosmicGnosis]

It appears they definitely wanted the Reapers to have some kind of "saving the galaxy" goal, but the problem is that their methods were extreme, like the ultimate Renegade solution.

[SwobyJ]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It appears they definitely wanted the Reapers to have some kind of "saving the galaxy" goal, but the problem is that their methods were extreme, like the ultimate Renegade solution.

Purpose: Paragon (primarily - "'Save' as many as possible!")
Methods: Renegade (primarily - "Well how do we reset the galaxy state?...")
Goal: Synthesis (primarily, as some clearly just think killing us is kewl, or that the cycle itself is inevitable)


They probably started off in a more Old God-y time, and took those drastic methods, purposes, and goals, and imposed it on later cycles that didn't know WTF was going on because the old conflicts were bloody AGES ago.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
It appears they definitely wanted the Reapers to have some kind of "saving the galaxy" goal, but the problem is that their methods were extreme, like the ultimate Renegade solution.

That's just it. Good Renegade solutions do what's necessary, but not more. As opposed to that, the Reapers' methods were *unnecessarily* extreme, and everything about them and their minions - their appearance, their actions, the imagery of their places - screamed in our ears, eyes and minds that they're monsters to be hated, destined to be unmade by the efforts of our protagonist, so loudly that the small voice that said "there is more to them" was drowned in the eyes of most players.

This is the reason why, when I read the older version of the leaked script and it said the best ending option included that Shepard becomes one with the Reapers, I thought "You can't be serious." It wasn't that I couldn't adapt to such a presumption, but it would be a very, very rational decision, in conflict with the emotional level of the story like nothing that came before. It results - as does ME3' real ending - in making decisions that you know in your mind are right, but nonetheless feel wrong to the point of making you sick.

   

[angol fear]

StreetMagic wrote...

But both Kill Bill and Pulp Fiction have crappy overall stories. 

Maybe because story is nothing. It's the writing that does everything.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Why do people keep necro'ing dead threads?

That said, the story can be told, it just has to be told well.

BW did not tell the story well.

[Linkenski]

ME3 is a mess and as much as you can over-interpret just about anything I don't believe the writers intended ME or ME3 to be about Nihilism or that they conciously were trying to tell this "story that can't be told".

Problem was that they had a team of 8 writers and a Director who went ego-maniacal in the final stages of development, came up with an insane idea because he wanted his work to have a deeper message, gave it to the worst of their 8 writers who probably didn't even understand it, then they ran out of time and they shipped a decent game with an abomination of an ending.

[Zubi Fett]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, OP, you raise some interesting questions. I think there are logical flaws in your reasoning though:

(1) To die is not an intrinsic attribute of organic life. There are real-life examples to prove this.

(2) "Nothing matters" or "meaninglessness" is a matter of perspective. It's rather likely that life as such has no meaning at all in the greater scheme of things because there is no greater scheme of things. The universe exists. Life exists until it doesn't. Period. But still, my life, life on Earth etc.. matters to *me*. The fallacy here is to think that all meaning must be eternal, ultimate, objective meaning. But there is no meaning without a mind for which that meaning exists. Ultimate meaning can only exist if there is an ultimate mind. But that there is no such thing (at least if you're not religious) doesn't mean there is no meaning at all. By interacting with my environment, I create meaning for myself. It doesn't matter that this is bound to end at some point.
I very much believe there is no ultimate meaning in life, no ultimate good and evil, no ultimate anything except that trivial fact that "something exists". All those are human-made concepts. But even though I live as an accident of nature, I have a mind and that mind creates meaning for itself. Because I create it, it exists. For a limited time. My thinking may encompass a century or a billion years, it is enough. I don't need eternity.

(3) Time is not a human invention. That we don't understand its nature and cannot conceive of "timelessness", even though there are hints that something like timelessness exists, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Instead, it would be more correct to say that causality *may* be a human invention. Yet again, it may not - it may just be a concept with limited scope, just like time is a concept with limited scope: it has no meaning from an out-of-the-universe perspective because it is created by the expansion of the universe.

How this impacts the points you make in your OP I'll attempt to point at a later time. Need to think more about this......

And lastly, a note about ME3: I very much doubt that this - what you point out in your OP - is the story Bioware wanted to tell. I think it's rather more likely they just screwed up.

(Even tho I'm quoting Ieldra2 this post is directed to every one as well as to the OP)

This could be resume in what I did come to realize a few years back when I've the so mention crysis:

The "me" its the center of the universe, the thing that its above all things.

But, what do I mean with this?

My perception starts with the creation of my concient, there for my universe starts then, and let me stand out "my". The fear to "nothing matters" is nothing but the lost of our subconsciente realization of "my" universe due to the discover of its own end.

And I can see the OP is looking for a way to fight back this fear with the "Find of hope one day".

My point is proven by the fact that we're all writting here about something we like, if not, if we where right about "nothing matters" then we'll be block to the realization that nothing we do matters, not to move our eyes to look else where or to move a finger... We'll simply stay doing what our instict lead us to to achive survival.

Therefor, if "I" was not the center of the universe and lets call it "God" who decides what has meaning and what does not, what does matter and what does not, I would not be writting here about something I've decide it does matter.

On the end, we all have a gigantic ego hahaha!

Back to Mass Effect 3,

Its to brave to assume such things as you might be right or you might be wrong. It is definitely a beautiful idea weather youtake it 100% or 70% of it(by 70% I mean to lower the point to a "There is hope for something better" rather than "There is hope for meaning"). Personaly I'm with the 70% option from day one even tho you just make it more rich again. 

In any case, great post again. It is good to see someone who has philosophy as a "hobby" as well.

(My apologies for any grammar mistakes, autocorrect was off and it's 00:48).
 

Modifié par Zubi Fett, 16 janvier 2014 - 11:49 .