39 réponses à ce sujet

[sleepy__head]

I'm going to start by saying outright that this is intended to be a mature adult discussion.  Internet geeks and horndogs please click "Back" now this is not for you.

Having said that, and after just finishing the city elf origin story, I must say wowwee it sure is messed up.  However, the shock actually came AFTER I have returned to the Alienage and the later spoke with the King.

The reason why I was at first confused was because when I went into the room of the Arl's son, the CONTEXT of that event was as follows :

I was drenched in blood.  My companion helper was also drenched in blood.
The Arl was fully clothed.
The 2 lackeys were fully clothed.
Shianna was on the ground, also fully clothed.

That CONTEXT led me to believe that nothing worse than some slapping or punching occurred to Shianni.  But the subsequent conversation with her back in the alienage, as well as a conversation with the King in Ostagar where my elven character told him that "I killed the Arl's son when he raped my friend" clearly indicated that Shianni was sexually assaulted.

Now, I'm probably going to surprise some people who are expecting me to rail against rape/sex in game, but no thats not what this thread is about.  I'm actually shocked that Shianni, when in the Arl's son's room, looked COMPLETELY NORMAL.  I clearly don't expect nudity or anything too explicit in this game, they have troubles with PR and ratings as it is.  But it was hard to imagine anything bad had happened when I walked in, covered in blood, only to see Shianni on the ground with her clothes on, and looking exactly like she was in the Alienage.

So my issue is this : I certainly don't expect Bioware to have Shianni naked and tied up on the bed, afterall this isn''t THAT kind of game.  But to imply that a woman can look perfectly normal with nary a hair out of place after having been raped seems to place more triviality on the sexual assault than I was comfortable with.  In fact, had I not spoken to Shianni and the King afterward I would have thought that I arrived in time to save her from it.

While I'm obviously not asking for nudity, I think a more appropriate setting would be to have Shianni in those cheesy bra and panties that our characters and NPCs all wear.  No nudity to incense the bible thumpers and overly sensitive type,s but at the same time a more *accurate* protrayal of what actually happened.  Rape is an ugly subject, if Bioware wants to broach it, at least be honest about it.  Having Shianni fully clothed just seemed like someone at Bioware lost their nerves at that very moment and opted for political correctness.

Or...

Script the story so that our characters are able to save Shianni from rape.  That way if representing the situation correctly is too much, the whole political incorrectness can be avoided if the Arl's son never had the chance to assault her, which is infinitely my preference.

What do you guys think?

[Chragen]

You got to remember that this is a game and that is a ingame cut scene making it a lot more restricting. But I personally don't find it hard to believe. Pants tend to have zippers and she was in a dress.

It comes down to a limitation of the game engine. If you try to force it then either the scene will feel cheesy or just bad. I personally really liked how it was presented.

The city elf origin as a female character was probably my favorite origin.

[sleepy__head]

Yeah I was running the origin as a female rogue. Made me want to strangle that guy near the end.

[rayvioletta]

if you talk to her, it's pretty obvious what happened, and she's clearly in shock

[Rainen89]

I believe the intent that is supposed to be shown is that you're only seeing the beginning, while if this was completely practical and realistic we'd expect torn clothes, bruises, scrapes and what not I don't think anyone at Bioware was that pedantic. Either way the message was shown and everyone knew what was going on. Truthfully I think it made it that much more powerful. You knew what that creep. (Amazing actor btw, it's hard for me to truly, truly hate someone when I know they're just acting and bravo my friend.) was doing despite you not hearing or seeing anything overly graphic.

Also, just read the last portion of your post. I believe you are saving her from actually being raped. She was abused and tormented but not actually subjected to rape at the point you see her anyway. The other girl on the other hand...anyway, still best Origin.

Modifié par Rainen89, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[Squallcloudw95]

Like you i didn't get it until the conversation with the king at Ostogar. I really tougth i saved them.

It made me wonder if the girl my cousin was supposed to marry was raped too since she said the one who resisted died but she sounded normal.

It strange but at that moment, i wished luck for the couple even if i know they're not real. xD

I agree on the fact it wasn't really obvious but maybe i'm just not smart enough. ^^

[noretus]

Eh? I realized it right away. Lower your pants, push up the skirt.



Only thing that bothered me ( on more then one occasion ) though was the lack of tears. But as a rule the facial expressions in the game in general have some room for improvement.

[kevinwastaken]

I'm an internet geek but I'm going to comment anyway.



I knew right away what had happened, the dialogue isn't that subtle about it. That's why I killed them all without even considering the lame bribe attempt. It's the best origin (to me) because it's relatively short and simple and can be quite emotional from an RP standpoint.



Question: If you don't kill Vaughan, is he alive in the dungeon later on? I remember knifing him there as a human noble, so it would be kind of nice to get a second chance at killing him for an elf.

[Ieldra]

BTW, does it have some consequences if you accept the 40-gold bribe? I can't see any character I make ever actually doing that, so please spoil me.



Apart from that, I agree it's pretty obvious what had happened. That the visual presentation is less than optimal never occurred to me until I read this thread.

[rayvioletta]

I'm curious too, but every time I play through as an elf I just *have* to kill him and reassure Shiani that all the bad men are bloody messes on the carpet. maybe one day I'll make an evil elf and take the money

[Avaraen]

noretus wrote...

Eh? I realized it right away. Lower your pants, push up the skirt.

Especially in a gang rape situation - this isn't some tender, loving moment where everyone wants to be naked, skin-on-skin, heh.

Re: the 40 sovereigns, spoiler follows

If you take the gold, when you get back to the Alienage, the guards show up as usual... and arrest you for assaulting the Arl's son and robbing him. So not only did you leave the women to a night or more of abuse at the hands of Vaughn and his cronies, but you don't even get to keep your payoff, and you can't take the fall for Soris. I tried it once, on a reload, just to see what would happen - I don't think I could ever actually play a character who left Shianni crying on the floor after she begs to be taken home (they may not have animated tears, but the voice acting conveys more than enough).

[CID-78]

well normally neither would I, it doesn't make sense to leave them hanging atleast if there wasn't a reward. but the stealth challenge I have picked up on required me todo exactly that, so I will find out if I finish the challenge.

[Zenon]

Seeing all fully dressed first made the situation appear more harmless than it should have IMHO. I mean it would perhaps looked more dramatic to see Shianna at least in her undies (as if her dress was torn away). Even being someone voting for nudity instead of undies I'd rather have her wear something in this scene to prevent any kind of discussion towards glorification of rape.



Then again I noticed how Shianna was kneeling on the floor before these men. Trembling heavily in shock. Was obvious to me they didn't (just) beat her. Playing as fem CE rogue I actually didn't want to know exactly what had happened. Felt sorry of being so late.



About the bribe: I considered for a moment. 40 sovereigns is more, than my elf probably would ever see in her life. But then again it was too much to sound like a credible offer. I suspected a trick. If he had so much, I should be able to get it from his dead body anyway. Besides that jerk deserved to die so much. Rarely enjoyed killing some NPC ever more than then.



I didn't read your spoiler, Avaraen (thanks for the warning), so maybe I'll play the origin again one day with getting bribed. Probably that time playing male CE. Have a hard time considering such an offer, virtually impossible for me when playing female in this origin.

[Loc'n'lol]

kevinwastaken wrote...

Question: If you don't kill Vaughan, is he alive in the dungeon later on? I remember knifing him there as a human noble, so it would be kind of nice to get a second chance at killing him for an elf.

But then you wouldn't get to see Cailan's face when you casually tell him
"oh BTW I just killed the son of an Arl"=]
"W..What ?!":o

[Shazzie]

I have never (and will never) accept the bribe. I honestly didn't even KNOW there was an attempted bribe. I was solely focused on the deaths of every single human in the building to pay attention to anything besides getting to that point as fast as possible.



However, from what I've read others as saying, re: the 40g bribe (SPOILER)



There is a way to keep the money. Sort of.

You have to hide it (I don't know where), and then when the Alienage becomes open to you again, you can retrieve it.

However, this means you have to get through a large percentage of the game without the money, so it's not something you'll be able to 'start your Grey Warden life' with.

[swk3000]

I have to agree with the OP. While I understand how exactly it would work fully clothed, I don't think any rapist would be happy with a fully clothed woman under him. From the realistic standpoint that the OP is taking, she should at least be in her underwear.



My other issue is how she reacted. She's in shock when you find her, but recovers far too quickly for me to see it as real. I'm not sure I can even understand her being as normal as she is when you encounter her later in the game. As I understand it, being raped is something that screws with your mind for a very, very long time. Shianni is mostly over it by the time you leave, which doesn't fit with what I've heard about real-life rape victims.



Finally, I noticed that no-one ever actually said the word 'rape' in-game. It was only ever hinted at; the actual word only showed up in a dialogue option, which would never be spoken anyway. I suppose I can understand why: if you come out and say it in dialogue, it suddenly becomes real, whereas hinting at it gives room for interpretation. I imagine most Voice Actors would have problems with taking the work if they'd just seen the line and not known what was going on in the game. At the same time, that refusal to come right out and say it gives it a much smaller impact on us emotionally. If you want to hit our emotions, then actually do so. Don't feint at us, then pull back at the last second.

[Gecon]

My interpretation of the events in the City Elf Origin is as follows:

Shiani has been raped in the sense that she had been beaten up to break her will, and it was evident that she would been raped and murdered afterwards.

Shiani has not been raped in the sense that she was actually already sexually assaulted. Thats because the criminals wanted to break her will first and make her suffer as much as possible. So first they beat her up, knowing that she knows she'll be raped and murdered next.

This is my conclusion because you witness the murder of the first victim. So until that point, the criminals where busy beating up said victim, and started torturing Shiani only afterwards. You kill these murderers and you kill other guards, until you reach Shiani, but overall this shouldnt have taken very much time until you reach her.

So the total time Shiani was directly tortured was actually quite short, maybe a quarter to a half hour at most. Before that point, she was only indirectly tortured by witnessing the torment of the first victim.


@swk3000: But most reallife rape victims dont see their rapists getting killed right in the middle of the crime. I read about such victims and they all feel a strong improvements of their situation if the criminal gets a sentence, because they no longer feel so helpless as before. Shiani got the maximum dosis of this, as the crime itself gets interrupted by the bloody death of her torturer.

Modifié par Gecon, 11 décembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[rayvioletta]

talking to Shiana in your home before leaving the Alienage to join the Wardens hints that it was more than 'just' a beating, but that she doesn't want anyone to know because they would treat her differently

she's a strong woman, and manages to put it behind her to some degree because she's passionate about saving her people. it's certainly not unusual for a rape victim to find the strength to face the world by fighting for some kind of cause

[Dark83]

Chragen wrote...

Pants tend to have zippers and she was in a dress.

To go off on a tanget, the earliest device resembling a zipper was patented in 1851 in the US.

The More You Know...

[Tarante11a]

Dark83 wrote...

Chragen wrote...

Pants tend to have zippers and she was in a dress.

To go off on a tanget, the earliest device resembling a zipper was patented in 1851 in the US.

The More You Know...

I'm glad someone else drew attention to that.  More button or drawstring arrangements in Ferelden I feel.

Can I just say that I find this thread a little weird.

[OneBadAssMother]

Shianni, before leaving the alienage:

"As far as the others know, they only roughed me up about it."

Yes, something did happen, but didn't go all the way.  As for the being dressed part, as others have said, it's probably a case of "lower the pants, push up the skirt". And yes, it was a rather strong introduction to the game - my wife who started playing the origin was so moved that she proceeded to kill every human male she could pull the murder knife on... yet ironically she still ended up with Alistair, *shrug*.

[Adria Teksuni]

Some ripped clothing on Shianni when you walk into the room, or some external indication of the horrific events, would have been nice, but I understand while it wasn't in there. My thought when I walked in was "Oh, good, I got here in time."



Nope.

[Revik]

While I do believe Bioware could have been more explicit with the rape scene to illicit a more raging response I also think that Bioware gave enough indicators for you to know that something horrible had occurred.

Certainly if you took the bribe and left you KNOW horrible acts will have taken place.

Not being about to tromp to the rescue in the nic of time was the correct decision on Bioware's part. It sets the tone correctly that if you did everything you could do things don't always end with balloons and rainbows.

[Bullets McDeath]

I appreciated that they handled it in a sort of PG fashion. For people who have been raped or have people close them in their lives that have survived experiences like that, it is not fun to be reminded of those experiences and horrors in your entertainment. Sure, I like chopping off people's heads and ripping out their entrails. No one ever did that to me, or to my girlfriend. I was in a 5 year relationship with a victim of a very severe and awful rape, opened my eyes to how prevalent that **** is in movies. So I didn't mind it being in the game but I appreciated that they weren't too realistic about it because honestly it may have made me quit playing.

[Pennoyer]

Who cares about how she looked. Anyone with sense knows she was raped. What really bugs me is how Soris' strength is too low to use the 2-handed swords in the campaign. Kind of lame imo.