235 réponses à ce sujet

[ohiocat110]

It's statistically impossible for synthetic life to fully eradicate organic life in the galaxy. The Milky Way contains 200-400 billion stars, with an estimated 10 billion planets in the habitable zone. (Numbers that seem to increase every time there's an advance in astrophysics) A 50,000 year Reaper cycle wouldn't even be long enough to survey all habitable planets for signs of life, unless the Reapers number in the billions.

Anitomical humans supposedly evolved 200,000 years ago on Earth. For synthetics to fully eradicate all advanced organic life, they would have to have the capability of surveying and potentially waging war with 50,000 worlds per year, every year, forever. And that's assuming they never encounter setbacks like a system failure or war from a civilization that's more powerful. It also assumes synthetic life will never factionalize, never experience a civil war, and will constantly work toward the goal of destroying all organics. It's assumed synthetics will turn on their creators, but never explaines why they would view all organic life as automatically hostile. It's also assumed they will act as Von Neumann machines and replicate an expand indefinitely.

It may take longer, but organic life is always going to come back unless synthetics utterly sterilize the entire galaxy, and sterilize every newly formed star system before organics can evolve. I suppose it's possible that the galaxy would one day be packed wall to wall with hostile killer robots, but exceedingly improbable. Hardly the certainty that the Catalyst makes it out to be.

[Taboo]

Shhhhhhhh. You'll upset the Synthesis people.

No but seriously. It's pretty bad.

[lordofdogtown19]

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

[Taboo]

He certainly doesn't have very good informants.

Again, he's stuck in a feedback loop. He can't do anything but his stupid plan.

[Venomous Snake]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

[Taboo]

Venomous Snake wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

That choice is what makes him human.

Also, we have a bit of, you know, a warning about it this time.

[Cypher_CS]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Reding and Listening Comprehension are your friends. Try them out.

It assumes that AI will choose to destroy or eradicate organics. Not because they are hostile, but because of calculable considerations.
Further more, it is NOT proven wrong by Geth and EDI.
Not saying the original argument is True or False, but it deals with Invariability. And you can't disprove Invariability by a single occurance that just happened to you now.

It does not assume Organics couldn't win a war against just any synthetics - it assumes that at the apex of that post TS AI, organics will be no match for it. Which, according to all known TS theories (or most), is true.
Again, it's a philosophical debate, not an empirical one.

As for the OP.
Sorry, but those statistics, again, show nothing.
Hell, Douglas Adams showed that stitistically there's NO LIFE in the Galaxy, at all - thus any man you meet is a figment of a deranged imagination (which, I guess, DNA had plenty of).

At any rate, when we talk about post TS AI, there are several scenarios in which such an AI would be powered by the Galactic Engine itself - i.e. it will span the entire galaxy as a single entity. Making the Galaxy itself a sentient organism, more or less, on the Macro level.
So, eradicating Organics would be like your White Cells fighting a disease. Quite doable.

[lordofdogtown19]

Venomous Snake wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

Good point and that's exactly why the Catalyst's logic is flawed. He seems to think that future events will all play out the same

[Cypher_CS]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That choice is what makes him human.

That's irrelevant to the logical discussion, and you know it.

Taboo-XX wrote... 

Also, we have a bit of, you know, a warning about it this time.

And...?
What can you do with this warning?
Enact the Four Laws of Robotics?
How did that work out for Daneel?

[Menalaos1971]

OK, OP you failed to pay any attention to the game at all.

The Mass Relay network is for travel, but is also a FTL communication network, and the Citadel, created by the Reapers, is the center of that Network. While the Reapers hybernate this network is constantly monitoring and gathering information on the entire galaxy, and the civilization that set up their central galactic government on the Citadel save their data on the entire galaxy there, too. Normally the Reapers jump in at the Citadel to cut the head off the galactic government, but also to shut off Mass Relay travel and communications. They also then have complete access to all data gathered by the advanced races and the network itself on all known life in the galaxy. If the races or the relays have detected your life, then the Reapers know about it.

As for Synthetics in general wiping out ALL organic life, yes, it is completely possible. Synthetics would just keep making more and more copies of themselves and spreading out until they cover every solar system in the entire galaxy. No, it won't be done quickly, but over thousands of years, making millions of copies every year and sending them out to destroy all life in a solar system, and then start making and sending out more copies using the local resources, they could easily overrun the entire galaxy in under a million years.

I foget the guy that came up with the math, but some astronomer basically calculated, once a race could travel to other stars, that unchallenged they could occupy all suitable solar systems in the entire galaxy in just a million years through series of colonizations, growth, and then further colonization by the last round of colonies. It would be an exponential spread.

[unoriginalname1133]

Venomous Snake wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

Well, considering that organic life is still around, the assumption that the Catalyst is working from has obviously NEVER happened. So we still have more known cases of synthetics being peaceful.

[Cypher_CS]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

Good point and that's exactly why the Catalyst's logic is flawed. He seems to think that future events will all play out the same

[img]http://www.gamegen.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/implied-facepalm.jpg 
[/img] 

[Taboo]

Organics will rise eventually. That's how the Universe works. They WILL come.

Will the Synthetics bleach every last bit of the Universe? Or will they simply advance?

Singularities are unpredictable. The Catalyst believes that they will ALWAYS wipe us out. The Synthetics could just as easily sit in a Dyson sphere and do nothing for a millenia.

[Ticonderoga117]

Common sense proves the Catalyst is wrong. Dead wrong.

/thread

[Venomous Snake]

unoriginalname1133 wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

Just because something occurs once does not mean that it's a constant. The sample size your using would not be sufficient in any type of statistics. So your conclusion is a bit biased because of one instant you want to point out. So yea geth and EDI proved this concept wrong in one situation at one small point in time but you can't make any type of intelligent guess about what will happen in the future.

Well, considering that organic life is still around, the assumption that the Catalyst is working from has obviously NEVER happened. So we still have more known cases of synthetics being peaceful.

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

[Bill Casey]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

Synthetics would just keep making more and more copies of themselves and spreading out until they cover every solar system in the entire galaxy.

Why?

[Bill Casey]

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
Genetically engineered sentient starships...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 mai 2012 - 04:28 .

[Taboo]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

That choice is what makes him human.

That's irrelevant to the logical discussion, and you know it.

Taboo-XX wrote... 

Also, we have a bit of, you know, a warning about it this time.

And...?
What can you do with this warning?
Enact the Four Laws of Robotics?
How did that work out for Daneel?

Not be a ******, that's what it means.

If the galaxy remains in the crap state Walters wanted it to we won't be building many Synthetics.

Also, the Star Gazer scene means that it won't be happening for at least ten thousand years.

It's not my ****ing problem then.

[Venomous Snake]

Bill Casey wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Are they synthetic? If I'm 50% Italian and 50% Mongolian, am I Italian?

[Taboo]

Venomous Snake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Are they synthetic? If I'm 50% Italian and 50% Mongolian, am I Italian?

I believe you're a ****** sapien. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Venomous Snake]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Are they synthetic? If I'm 50% Italian and 50% Mongolian, am I Italian?

I believe you're a ****** sapien. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe I asked a yes or no question, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Taboo]

Venomous Snake wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Are they synthetic? If I'm 50% Italian and 50% Mongolian, am I Italian?

I believe you're a ****** sapien. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe I asked a yes or no question, correct me if I'm wrong.

Countries are an abstraction created to sepearate people with borders. You are no more Italian than you are Mongolian. You are human.

[Funkdrspot]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

As it currently stands, yes the catalyst sounds stupid, but lets be real here, the Geth and EDI are in their infancy.

The Catalyst has been around for a few hundred million years at least. All he had to do was add like 30 seconds of dialogue about how they've allowed peaceful AI-organic cycles to continue longer, only to have it always devolve to organic extinction when the AI 's achieve a level of processing comparable to the Reapers.

If they even wanted to go for the gusto, they could add in a detailed part about how the catalyst ran 400 separate experiments in a separate galaxy and every last one ended with organic extinction.

So again, it sounds stupid currently, but there's PLENTLY they could add to make it make perfect sense.

[Taboo]

Funkdrspot wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He's also assuming synthetics would be hostile towards organics (proven wrong by Geth and EDI)

Also he assumes organics couldn't win a war against synthetics (proven wrong by the Protheans in the Metacon War)

As it currently stands, yes the catalyst sounds stupid, but lets be real here, the Geth and EDI are in their infancy.

The Catalyst has been around for a few hundred million years at least. All he had to do was add like 30 seconds of dialogue about how they've allowed peaceful AI-organic cycles to continue longer, only to have it always devolve to organic extinction when the AI 's achieve a level of processing comparable to the Reapers.

If they even wanted to go for the gusto, they could add in a detailed part about how the catalyst ran 400 separate experiments in a separate galaxy and every last one ended with organic extinction.

So again, it sounds stupid currently, but there's PLENTLY they could add to make it make perfect sense.

The Catalyst is an AI caught in a feedback loop. He can't take in anymore variables on his own. He needs intervention to create a new option remember?

He's a loop that won't take in anything new.

[Venomous Snake]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Venomous Snake wrote...

We have one giant case of synthetics not being peaceful, it happens to be tied in the main plot. Or have I been playing a game where there are some type of organics inside these huge reapers flying them around? So we have one hostile machine race and one machine race (in the infancy of it's infinite life span).

Reapers are synthesis...
A hybrid of organic and inorganic material...
A billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...
The self purported pinnacle of evolution and existence...

Are they synthetic? If I'm 50% Italian and 50% Mongolian, am I Italian?

I believe you're a ****** sapien. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe I asked a yes or no question, correct me if I'm wrong.

Countries are an abstraction created to sepearate people with borders. You are no more Italian than you are Mongolian. You are human.

I'm also no more human than I am a mammal. I'm also no more a mammal than an animal. Can we stop with semantics or are you a philosophy major?