235 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

I believe I asked a yes or no question, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. Cultural identity is determined by nurture, not by genetics.

Modifié par frylock23, 31 mai 2012 - 02:44 .

[ohiocat110]

Great discussion.

One thing I wanted to add comes from the Heretic Station in ME2. The Geth Heretics decide to follow Sovereign and are effectively exiled from the Geth Collective. They were exiled because...(drum roll)...the majority of the Geth did not want to help Sovereign capture the Citadel and start a war to wipe out organic life.

The Geth created a schism in their own society by choosing to protect/ignore organic life. They're the strongest and most prominent synthetic race in the galaxy, yet every decision they make shows they just want to be left alone (the Morning War came at the hands of Quarian abuse).

Unless the Catalyst has information that has yet to be revealed to players, why is it so convinced that synthetics *will* wipe out organics?

[unoriginalname1133]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

unoriginalname1133 wrote...

Well, considering that organic life is still around, the assumption that the Catalyst is working from has obviously NEVER happened. So we still have more known cases of synthetics being peaceful.

In this cycle?

Our sample size is the Geth, the Reapers, EDI, and that AI on the Citadel. All Geth were complicit in the genocide of the Quarians in the morning war, well past any 'necessary for self-defense' arguments, but since the Geth did suffer a factional split we can split them into two groups: Heretics and non-Heretics.

'Peaceful' synthetics include non-Heretic Geth and EDI.

Hostile synthetics include Heretic Geth, Reapers, and the AI on the Citadel.


Even if we remove the Reapers because they don't really consider themselves synthetics and are unnatural organic-synthetic hybrids, that still leaves us a 50-50 division on peaceful vs. non-peaceful synthetics... and that's only if we ignore the past decisions of the 'true' Geth.


If we start factoring in Javik, then the numbers get significantly more lopsided.


There's only been one known non-hostile uncontrolled synthetic race, and that is EDI. Who is a warship/sex-bot which certainly has been instrumental in a lot of deaths.

I'm not saying that synthetics do not have the capacity to be violent; they clearly do. What I'm arguing against is the idea that synthetics must, without fail, ALWAYS murder ALL organics. Wars against synthetics might happen, but they are not fundementally different from wars between organics if the mass extinction of all organic life is not involved, and it obviously never has been. If this wholesale destruction of organics had ever actually occured, Mass Effect would never have happened, because the turians, humans, asari and everyone else would already be dead. The Catalyst, then, is carrying out his cycle based upon an assumption of something it thinks will happen, not something that it ever directly observed. 

Also, when you are dealing in absolute assertions (synthetics CANNOT coexist with organics, they must INEVITABLY wipe out all organic life), ANY contradiction, no matter the scale, unravels these absolute assertions. The mere existence of synthetics like EDI, Legion, and the mainstream geth proves that synthics do not, as a matter of course, exterminate any and all organics.

[ReXspec]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You know, the genocide of advanced civilizations has nothing to do with the fight against synthetics. It is merely a rationalization. Exterminating those civilizations is the way the reapers reproduce and their way to stay on top of the food chain.

^THIS^

[ReXspec]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Or will the unpredictable singularity effectively bleach the entire universe?

I mean seriously.

I think that question is impossible to answer.

According to the star kid's logic, the answer is yes.

[Heeden]

ohiocat110 wrote...

It's statistically impossible for synthetic life to fully eradicate organic life in the galaxy. The Milky Way contains 200-400 billion stars, with an estimated 10 billion planets in the habitable zone. (Numbers that seem to increase every time there's an advance in astrophysics) A 50,000 year Reaper cycle wouldn't even be long enough to survey all habitable planets for signs of life, unless the Reapers number in the billions.

Anitomical humans supposedly evolved 200,000 years ago on Earth. For synthetics to fully eradicate all advanced organic life, they would have to have the capability of surveying and potentially waging war with 50,000 worlds per year, every year, forever. And that's assuming they never encounter setbacks like a system failure or war from a civilization that's more powerful. It also assumes synthetic life will never factionalize, never experience a civil war, and will constantly work toward the goal of destroying all organics. It's assumed synthetics will turn on their creators, but never explaines why they would view all organic life as automatically hostile. It's also assumed they will act as Von Neumann machines and replicate an expand indefinitely.

It may take longer, but organic life is always going to come back unless synthetics utterly sterilize the entire galaxy, and sterilize every newly formed star system before organics can evolve. I suppose it's possible that the galaxy would one day be packed wall to wall with hostile killer robots, but exceedingly improbable. Hardly the certainty that the Catalyst makes it out to be.

If the Reapers chose to detonate the mass relay system they could annihilate all life in the galaxy in a few minutes.

[CINCTuchanka]

It seems pretty clear to me that the Reapers are insane. They spend all 3 games doing evil, insane things like indoctrinating people, turning them into horrible biomechanical husks, committing daily galactic equivalents of the Holocaust, corrupting TIM and causing the death of Anderson, one of your best friends. I essentially interpreted the Reapers/Catalyst as an entity that, even if it DID have a point, was so clearly insane that any solution they offer was not an optimal one. The Catalyst, because of this clear insanity and disregard for "life", lacks any warrant to make last-minute appeals for the necessity of the Reapers or Synthesis. Which is why I blow him up.

[ohiocat110]

ReXspec wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You know, the genocide of advanced civilizations has nothing to do with the fight against synthetics. It is merely a rationalization. Exterminating those civilizations is the way the reapers reproduce and their way to stay on top of the food chain.

^THIS^

I can see that. But that turns the Reapers into the Borg. Cybernetic life that assimilates organic life into its own form to reproduce and expand. The Reapers have always been presented as having a specific purpose for being outside of simple self-preservation.

And funny side observation: the Borg got their butts handed to them in Voyager by Species 8472...supposedly the pinnacle of organic evolution.

[The Angry One]

ohiocat110 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You know, the genocide of advanced civilizations has nothing to do with the fight against synthetics. It is merely a rationalization. Exterminating those civilizations is the way the reapers reproduce and their way to stay on top of the food chain.

^THIS^

I can see that. But that turns the Reapers into the Borg. Cybernetic life that assimilates organic life into its own form to reproduce and expand. The Reapers have always been presented as having a specific purpose for being outside of simple self-preservation.

And funny side observation: the Borg got their butts handed to them in Voyager by Species 8472...supposedly the pinnacle of organic evolution.

Trek mangles evolution almost as badly as Synthesis does.
Species 8472 would be the most successful life form in their enviroment, not a "higher" form of evolution than everything else.
Then again Trek writers often think evolution has some unseen plan written in our DNA either due to ignorance or because they want to make anyone with even a base understanding of biology cry.

[ReXspec]

ohiocat110 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You know, the genocide of advanced civilizations has nothing to do with the fight against synthetics. It is merely a rationalization. Exterminating those civilizations is the way the reapers reproduce and their way to stay on top of the food chain.

^THIS^

I can see that. But that turns the Reapers into the Borg. Cybernetic life that assimilates organic life into its own form to reproduce and expand. The Reapers have always been presented as having a specific purpose for being outside of simple self-preservation.

And funny side observation: the Borg got their butts handed to them in Voyager by Species 8472...supposedly the pinnacle of organic evolution.

That is an interesting paradox.  One worth looking into.

But in regards to the Reapers, why not?  Why not make the Reapers into the borg on steroids?  Or, better yet, make Reapers story even more inscrutable and dark.  Maybe they were synthetics created for a specific purpose (which would make sense.  Bioware had experimented with the plot that the Reapers exist in order to prevent the spread of Dark Energy, but that plot has it's own holes) but that purpose was corrupted at their initial creation, or at some point in time during the millions of years of slaughter and harvest.

In all honesty, I think that would make a lot more sense than the literary corner BioWare has written themselves into.

Modifié par ReXspec, 31 mai 2012 - 03:58 .

[The Angry One]

ReXspec wrote...

ohiocat110 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You know, the genocide of advanced civilizations has nothing to do with the fight against synthetics. It is merely a rationalization. Exterminating those civilizations is the way the reapers reproduce and their way to stay on top of the food chain.

^THIS^

I can see that. But that turns the Reapers into the Borg. Cybernetic life that assimilates organic life into its own form to reproduce and expand. The Reapers have always been presented as having a specific purpose for being outside of simple self-preservation.

And funny side observation: the Borg got their butts handed to them in Voyager by Species 8472...supposedly the pinnacle of organic evolution.

That is an interesting paradox.  One worth looking into.

But in regards to the Reapers, why not?  Why not make the Reapers into the borg on steroids?  Or, better yet, make Reapers story even more inscrutable and dark.  Maybe they were synthetics created for a specific purpose (which would make sense.  Bioware had experimented with the plot that the Reapers exist in order to prevent the spread of Dark Energy, but that plot has it's own holes) but that purpose was corrupted at their initial creation, or at some point in time during the millions of years of slaughter and harvest.

In all honesty, I think that would make a lot more sense than the literary corner BioWare has written themselves into.

The Borg were effective when they were inscrutable antagonists that simply used us for their own ends.
Ironically they began to fail, fall flat on their face and become universal jokes when the writers attempted to be "clever" and add more to them than what was necesarry.

Sound familiar?

[ReXspec]

The Angry One wrote...

The Borg were effective when they were inscrutable antagonists that simply used us for their own ends.
Ironically they began to fail, fall flat on their face and become universal jokes when the writers attempted to be "clever" and add more to them than what was necesarry.

Sound familiar?

All too familiar...

The Reapers were an exceedingly effective, inscrutable, dark, aloof, and emotionless villain.

The conversation with sovereign set the tone for me in regards to them.  One line that sticks out in particular was this:

"You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it."

A fourteen word line that I will NEVER forget.   For me, that is a phrase that firmly established the Reapers as a powerful and terrifying force.

I cannot fathom what Hudson was thinking when he envisioned the final product.

Did he honestly think endless speculation would make people happy?

Modifié par ReXspec, 31 mai 2012 - 04:15 .

[ArcanistLibram]

You don't need to work very hard to prove that the Catalyst is full of ****. Its plans are based on the premise that synthetics will always turn on their organic creators. The geth prove that this statement is false. Due to the nature of absolutist statements, this means that the Catalyst is wrong, has always been wrong and will forever be wrong.

[ArchDuck]

Statistics, logic, science. Take your pick as to why the Catalyst is wrong.

Or you can choose faith* in the Catalyst's words, as some people seem to be hell bent on doing.

*faith: belief without proof or reason

Modifié par ArchDuck, 31 mai 2012 - 04:31 .

[Reorte]

Heeden wrote...

If the Reapers chose to detonate the mass relay system they could annihilate all life in the galaxy in a few minutes.

There are plenty of solar systems with no relay (and we don't know how easily they could reactivate the dormant ones either).

Funnily enough the destruction of all organic life is perfectly possible if you're daft enough to accept that Synthesis is possible. If space magic can change all organic life it would also be possible to create space magic that kills all organic life (Control and Destroy aren't quite as bad, I could just about accept that they're some signal that screws around with the Reapers' systems even if it's ludicrously far-fetched that they'd all be vulnerable to such a thing).

[Heeden]

Reorte wrote...

Heeden wrote...

If the Reapers chose to detonate the mass relay system they could annihilate all life in the galaxy in a few minutes.

There are plenty of solar systems with no relay (and we don't know how easily they could reactivate the dormant ones either).

Funnily enough the destruction of all organic life is perfectly possible if you're daft enough to accept that Synthesis is possible. If space magic can change all organic life it would also be possible to create space magic that kills all organic life (Control and Destroy aren't quite as bad, I could just about accept that they're some signal that screws around with the Reapers' systems even if it's ludicrously far-fetched that they'd all be vulnerable to such a thing).

Well that's okay, I am daft enough to accept synthesis is possible, I'm also daft enough to accept FTL travel and psychics because it's fiction.

[Cypher_CS]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

You don't need to work very hard to prove that the Catalyst is full of ****. Its plans are based on the premise that synthetics will always turn on their organic creators. The geth prove that this statement is false. Due to the nature of absolutist statements, this means that the Catalyst is wrong, has always been wrong and will forever be wrong.

Yeah, going head first into a wall is not really the best of arguments.
And by going head first I mean your blatanet refusal understand what can be considered proof and what can't.

[Dusen]

What's ironic is that the only instances of hostile synthetics in the game have been sparked by the reapers themselves. The geth wouldn't have factioned off had it not been for the intervention of Sovereign, I even want to say that there was a snippet in ME3 that hinted about the Prothean metacon war being caused by the Reapers in order to weaken the Protheans.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't it be more productive to use the reapers to fight the possible synthetic uprising instead of exterminating the very organics they're supposed to be saving?

Modifié par Dusen, 31 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

Statistics, logic, science. Take your pick as to why the Catalyst is wrong.

Or you can choose faith* in the Catalyst's words, as some people seem to be hell bent on doing.

*faith: belief without proof or reason

Dusen wrote...

What's ironic is that the only instances of hostile synthetics in the game have been sparked by the reapers themselves. The geth wouldn't have factioned off had it not been for the intervention of Sovereign, I even want to say that there was a snippet in ME3 that hinted about the Prothean metacon war being caused by the Reapers in order to weaken the Protheans.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't it be more productive to use the reapers to fight the possible synthetic uprising instead of exterminating the very organics they're supposed to be saving?

I see you have chosen logic. A fine choice.

[Cypher_CS]

No, because then there will come a time a Synthetic is created which the Reapers can't beat.

[Clayless]

Dusen wrote...

What's ironic is that the only instances of hostile synthetics in the game have been sparked by the reapers themselves. The geth wouldn't have factioned off had it not been for the intervention of Sovereign, I even want to say that there was a snippet in ME3 that hinted about the Prothean metacon war being caused by the Reapers in order to weaken the Protheans.

Except for that time EDI gained awareness and killed everyone. Or when the Geth gained awareness and killed about 10 billion, and then did nothing to stop or warn people of the 5% of them that went to wipe out the galaxy.

[Grimwick]

Cypher_CS wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

You don't need to work very hard to prove that the Catalyst is full of ****. Its plans are based on the premise that synthetics will always turn on their organic creators. The geth prove that this statement is false. Due to the nature of absolutist statements, this means that the Catalyst is wrong, has always been wrong and will forever be wrong.

Yeah, going head first into a wall is not really the best of arguments.
And by going head first I mean your blatanet refusal understand what can be considered proof and what can't.

His argument was against the 'absolutionist claims'. The fact that the SC says that synthetics will always kill or fight organics is a pretty absolute claim - any example of counter-evidence proves this claim to be false, which is what he was saying.

[ohiocat110]

Dusen wrote...

EDIT: Also, wouldn't it be more productive to use the reapers to fight the possible synthetic uprising instead of exterminating the very organics they're supposed to be saving?

Or have a Reaper show up and say [deep voice]: "STOP BUILDING AIs OR DIE"
Organic Civilization: "Ok" (goes to change underwear)

[ArchDuck]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Dusen wrote...

What's ironic is that the only instances of hostile synthetics in the game have been sparked by the reapers themselves. The geth wouldn't have factioned off had it not been for the intervention of Sovereign, I even want to say that there was a snippet in ME3 that hinted about the Prothean metacon war being caused by the Reapers in order to weaken the Protheans.

Except for that time EDI gained awareness and killed everyone. Or when the Geth gained awareness and killed about 10 billion, and then did nothing to stop or warn people of the 5% of them that went to wipe out the galaxy.

I did not know that EDI killed everyone. That was why there was only bodies on the Citadel and Earth and Tuchanka and .. oh wait that didn't happen.

Ah yes, in that 3 way war (anti-Geth Quarians, pro-Geth Quarians & the Geth) we know exactly how many people were killed by which factions in what way. Good thing we know exactly how many Quarians died due to effects that were caused by weaponry used against the geth, how many died due to friendly fire and also how many were killed by the opposing Quarian faction. Mind reminding me of those exact numbers again?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 31 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[ArchDuck]

ohiocat110 wrote...

Dusen wrote...

EDIT: Also, wouldn't it be more productive to use the reapers to fight the possible synthetic uprising instead of exterminating the very organics they're supposed to be saving?

Or have a Reaper show up and say [deep voice]: "STOP BUILDING AIs OR DIE"
Organic Civilization: "Ok" (goes to change underwear)

Pfft everyone knows that genocide and murder campaigns are way more effective at getting people to understand the possible dangers of what they are doing than education campaigns.