336 réponses à ce sujet

[1337haxwtg]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Why does everyone think it needs to be nerfed? Its a co-op game. Plus I only have the first upgrade for it. Give people some time to unlock stuff first. Not everyone saves up millions of credits to spend on dlc stuff the first day. Many people haven't unlocked half of the guns/gear/characters yet. 

Balance, it's for the greater good.

But if they nerf it, it'll be useless, and the widow/black widow/ n7 valiant will still be the best and all the other sniper rifles will be useless. So that's not really balanced at all. 

Again, you have failed to understand what we asked to be done. We want it to fall in line with those weapons, not be useless.

I've said before that a weapon's balance should be found somewhere in between it's ease of use, difficulty of obtaining, and reward of landing a shot.

The Krysae is fairly easily obtained, painfully easy to use, and yields better results than most weapons with less effort.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Master Xanthan wrote...

But if they nerf it, it'll be useless, and the widow/black widow/ n7 valiant will still be the best and all the other sniper rifles will be useless. So that's not really balanced at all. 

there's a few useless sniper rifles.
Incisor and mantis predominantly.

but the other sniper rifles are far from useless.
viper is essentially a cheap, slightly slower firing variant of the valiant.
the raptor can DPS as well as low ranking black widow, and is commonly underestimated because you need to spam the trigger.
indra is the highest DPS sniper rifle
kishok got a pretty hefty nerf recently, but it's still workable.

There are 2 main issues.
The krysae is a noob tube, all the other sniper rifles take nontrivial skill to use.
and the krysae is just on a whole other league, nothing comes close to it.

I can point out a few builds where I would want to use a raptor instead of a black widow.
I can't point out any builds where I would want to use a black widow instead of a krysae.

[Master Xanthan]

InfamousResult wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Why does everyone think it needs to be nerfed? Its a co-op game.

Okay, I'm sorry.

This will never not be a ridiculous, facepalm-worthy counter-argument.

"Hey guys, it's a co-op game! Nothing should be nerfed! We should all WANT the game to be as easy as possible! We should start a petition so Bioware gives us an infinite-use button that we can press to IMMEDIATELY kill all the enemies on the map, and skip all the waves, and give us all the exp and credits in 5 seconds.. FLAT. That would be the best balance update and the best game ever!"

No.

Stop it.

No.

Hey, way to ignore the rest of my post. You know, the part about most of the players not even having the gun yet. Yeah that part of the post, which you conveniently ignored. Maybe if you guys waited for everyone to, you know, get the gun, perhaps I would understand why its OP. But that would be silly wouldn't it? 

[1337haxwtg]

Drummernate wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

My suggested solution will not change what gun people unlock when they do. It will be the same thing.

Being a co-op game doesn't mean we can just throw balance out the window. That is, unless you want to turn Mass Effect into a childish parody of itself, where we can just blow everything up in seconds with no thought or skill.

That is exactly what Single Player was like...

I like a "uniform experiecne" when I am enjoying the "artistic integrity" of video games.

Nerfing the gun would be nerfing its integrity to be artistic in its own way of blowing chunks of enemies all over the map in the fastest time possible.

 I laughed at this.

[Master Xanthan]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

But if they nerf it, it'll be useless, and the widow/black widow/ n7 valiant will still be the best and all the other sniper rifles will be useless. So that's not really balanced at all. 

there's a few useless sniper rifles.
Incisor and mantis predominantly.

but the other sniper rifles are far from useless.
viper is essentially a cheap, slightly slower firing variant of the valiant.
the raptor can DPS as well as low ranking black widow, and is commonly underestimated because you need to spam the trigger.
indra is the highest DPS sniper rifle
kishok got a pretty hefty nerf recently, but it's still workable.

There are 2 main issues.
The krysae is a noob tube, all the other sniper rifles take nontrivial skill to use.
and the krysae is just on a whole other league, nothing comes close to it.

I can point out a few builds where I would want to use a raptor instead of a black widow.
I can't point out any builds where I would want to use a black widow instead of a krysae.

Are those sniper rifles you mentioned viable on gold? If they aren't, then I consider them to be worthless.

[1337haxwtg]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

But if they nerf it, it'll be useless, and the widow/black widow/ n7 valiant will still be the best and all the other sniper rifles will be useless. So that's not really balanced at all. 

there's a few useless sniper rifles.
Incisor and mantis predominantly.

but the other sniper rifles are far from useless.
viper is essentially a cheap, slightly slower firing variant of the valiant.
the raptor can DPS as well as low ranking black widow, and is commonly underestimated because you need to spam the trigger.
indra is the highest DPS sniper rifle
kishok got a pretty hefty nerf recently, but it's still workable.

There are 2 main issues.
The krysae is a noob tube, all the other sniper rifles take nontrivial skill to use.
and the krysae is just on a whole other league, nothing comes close to it.

I can point out a few builds where I would want to use a raptor instead of a black widow.
I can't point out any builds where I would want to use a black widow instead of a krysae.

Are those sniper rifles you mentioned viable on gold? If they aren't, then I consider them to be worthless.

With the right builds, yes. I've used a Viper on an AJA to great effect on gold.

[InfamousResult]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Hey, way to ignore the rest of my post. You know, the part about most of the players not even having the gun yet. Yeah that part of the post, which you conveniently ignored. Maybe if you guys waited for everyone to, you know, get the gun, perhaps I would understand why its OP. But that would be silly wouldn't it?

I ignored it because it was irrelevant. What's silly is every argument you're using.

We don't need to see everybody use the gun to know it's OP. We've seen it in action. We've seen the videos, and the cold hard facts. Everybody being able to do exactly what some people have already gotten to do does not change what we already know. It's pointless to just wait. It needs a balance change.

[ryoldschool]

Ankarah wrote...

perhaps you can stop using it if you think the gun's 'balance' is out of place?

when last i checked i had a choice in which gun i brought to a gmae

I see it this way:

(1) People who want it nerfed because if it turns out that its really so powerful and easy to use then everyone will use the gun/class.  ( OP is saying infiltrators with rank 6 of cloak )
      a. Less skilled players will become good
      b. Very skilled players will become so good that the game will cease to be a challenge
(2) If everyone is good, then skilled players won't stand out as much
(3) If its too easy people will lose interest in the MP and stop playing.

So, its not like you are suggesting.  In ME2 you could avoid the Mattock with Arush because it was a single player game, with Multiplayer other people's choices ( weapons/characters ) do affect your experience.

It is in Bioware's interest to keep as many people playing as possible.  Its also in my best interest because I really like this game and wish to play for quite a while.

[Master Xanthan]

InfamousResult wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Hey, way to ignore the rest of my post. You know, the part about most of the players not even having the gun yet. Yeah that part of the post, which you conveniently ignored. Maybe if you guys waited for everyone to, you know, get the gun, perhaps I would understand why its OP. But that would be silly wouldn't it?

I ignored it because it was irrelevant. What's silly is every argument you're using.

We don't need to see everybody use the gun to know it's OP. We've seen it in action. We've seen the videos, and the cold hard facts. Everybody being able to do exactly what some people have already gotten to do does not change what we already know. It's pointless to just wait. It needs a balance change.

Well then, I guess by the time I level up the nerfed version of the weapon, it'll be incredibly useless and I'll just have to go back to the Widow/Black Widow since that's what everyone will use once that happens. 

Modifié par Master Xanthan, 01 juin 2012 - 01:55 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Are those sniper rifles you mentioned viable on gold? If they aren't, then I consider them to be worthless.

raptor? yes. It's really good dps, people underestimate it. You need more than a black widow I to outdps a raptor X.
incisor? eh
mantis? more or less, essentially the same as the widow except bad vs bosses
kishok? yes, you're trading a faster overall firing rate on a black widow for a steadier firing rate that doesn't leave you as vulnerable. And it stuns phantoms, which is nice.
Indra? yes, best boss killer sniper rifle in the game.
black widow, valiant, widow, mhm.
Javelin? kinda pointless when compared to the widow on gold, but sure, it's workable.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 01 juin 2012 - 01:57 .

[InfamousResult]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Well then, I guess by the time I level up the nerfed version of the weapon, it'll be incredibly useless and I'll just have to go back to the Widow/Black Widow since that's what everyone uses anyway.

Your pessimism and apparent psychic abilities notwithstanding, I very much doubt that the balance change the OP is suggesting will actually make that much of a difference, and it sounds like you're just dancing in hyperbole.

The request is to Balance the gun, not to drive it into the ground. If your complaint is about how far Bioware MIGHT take it, then complain to Bioware, not the users in this thread.

[Bedlam74]

It's going to end up like the Falcon and the Striker. Guns that used to be good, and nobody uses anymore since they were "fixed".

[InfamousResult]

Bedlam74 wrote...

It's going to end up like the Falcon and the Striker. Guns that used to be good, and nobody uses anymore since they were "fixed".

I still see people use the Falcon well.
And out of curiousity, what "fix" did they give the Striker?

[1337haxwtg]

InfamousResult wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Well then, I guess by the time I level up the nerfed version of the weapon, it'll be incredibly useless and I'll just have to go back to the Widow/Black Widow since that's what everyone uses anyway.

Your pessimism and apparent psychic abilities notwithstanding, I very much doubt that the balance change the OP is suggesting will actually make that much of a difference, and it sounds like you're just dancing in hyperbole.

The request is to Balance the gun, not to drive it into the ground. If your complaint is about how far Bioware MIGHT take it, then complain to Bioware, not the users in this thread.

And if they do nerf it into oblivion, I'll be the first one petitioning to have it fixed. I want balance, not buff all the things or nerf all the things.

[1337haxwtg]

Bedlam74 wrote...

It's going to end up like the Falcon and the Striker. Guns that used to be good, and nobody uses anymore since they were "fixed".

Both weapons are still useful. I don't see the point.

[Drummernate]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Are those sniper rifles you mentioned viable on gold? If they aren't, then I consider them to be worthless.

raptor? yes. It's really good dps, people underestimate it. You need more than a black widow I to outdps a raptor X.
incisor? eh
mantis? more or less, essentially the same as the widow except bad vs bosses
kishok? yes, you're trading a faster overall firing rate on a black widow for a steadier firing rate that doesn't leave you as vulnerable. And it stuns phantoms, which is nice.
Indra? yes, best boss killer sniper rifle in the game.
black widow, valiant, widow, mhm.
Javelin? kinda pointless when compared to the widow on gold, but sure, it's workable.

*Sigh*....

Not this  again!

[1337haxwtg]

Drummernate wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Are those sniper rifles you mentioned viable on gold? If they aren't, then I consider them to be worthless.

raptor? yes. It's really good dps, people underestimate it. You need more than a black widow I to outdps a raptor X.
incisor? eh
mantis? more or less, essentially the same as the widow except bad vs bosses
kishok? yes, you're trading a faster overall firing rate on a black widow for a steadier firing rate that doesn't leave you as vulnerable. And it stuns phantoms, which is nice.
Indra? yes, best boss killer sniper rifle in the game.
black widow, valiant, widow, mhm.
Javelin? kinda pointless when compared to the widow on gold, but sure, it's workable.

*Sigh*....

Not this  again!

I feel like the Javelin is a litle harder to aim, but more than makes up for its lack of versatility in sheer stopping power. Just pop a shot into an Atlas and enjoy the results. I still think the ammo capacity nerf was a little much.

[Grimy Bunyip]

1337haxwtg wrote...

I feel like the Javelin is a litle harder to aim, but more than makes up for its lack of versatility in sheer stopping power. Just pop a shot into an Atlas and enjoy the results. I still think the ammo capacity nerf was a little much.

the issue is the widow can pop 2 shots in a cloak cycle, and just barely land both within the cloak window.
although you might have to noscope the second shot since zooming takes time.

this is completely impossible on the javelin because of the 0.25 second charge up time.

As for cloak dps, the javelin X will do about 4k base damage per shot including the 1.4k sniper damage bonus?
and cloak cycles take 4 seconds so long as you fire the gun instantly and trigger a 3 second CD (+1 more second because there's a delay before cloak is broken)

so your cloak DPS is a base of about 1k.

compare that to an indra which has nearly 1.4k base cloak cycle DPS
and the black widow which has nearly 1.3k
or the widow, which has over 1.3k if you can get 2 shots in a cloak cycle.

The javelin really doesn't fill a useful niche.
it's not a bad gun, it's just outperformed for every relevant purpose other than having a decent sniper rifle on a krogan sentinel w/o points in incinerate or something.

[Tankcommander]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

But if they nerf it, it'll be useless, and the widow/black widow/ n7 valiant will still be the best and all the other sniper rifles will be useless. So that's not really balanced at all. 

there's a few useless sniper rifles.
Incisor and mantis predominantly.

but the other sniper rifles are far from useless.
viper is essentially a cheap, slightly slower firing variant of the valiant.
the raptor can DPS as well as low ranking black widow, and is commonly underestimated because you need to spam the trigger.
indra is the highest DPS sniper rifle
kishok got a pretty hefty nerf recently, but it's still workable.

There are 2 main issues.
The krysae is a noob tube, all the other sniper rifles take nontrivial skill to use.
and the krysae is just on a whole other league, nothing comes close to it.

I can point out a few builds where I would want to use a raptor instead of a black widow.
I can't point out any builds where I would want to use a black widow instead of a krysae.

And that is precisely the problem.

[Drummernate]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

I feel like the Javelin is a litle harder to aim, but more than makes up for its lack of versatility in sheer stopping power. Just pop a shot into an Atlas and enjoy the results. I still think the ammo capacity nerf was a little much.

the issue is the widow can pop 2 shots in a cloak cycle, and just barely land both within the cloak window.
although you might have to noscope the second shot since zooming takes time.

this is completely impossible on the javelin because of the 0.25 second charge up time.

As for cloak dps, the javelin X will do about 4k base damage per shot including the 1.4k sniper damage bonus?
and cloak cycles take 4 seconds so long as you fire the gun instantly and trigger a 3 second CD (+1 more second because there's a delay before cloak is broken)

so your cloak DPS is a base of about 1k.

compare that to an indra which has nearly 1.4k base cloak cycle DPS
and the black widow which has nearly 1.3k
or the widow, which has over 1.3k if you can get 2 shots in a cloak cycle.

The javelin really doesn't fill a useful niche.
it's not a bad gun, it's just outperformed for every relevant purpose other than having a decent sniper rifle on a krogan sentinel w/o points in incinerate or something.

How often do you squeeze 2 sniper shots into one cloak cycle during an actual engagement while dodging Prime shots and Banshee warps and Phantom cannons?

You don't.

Especially on consoles where we don't have medigel canceling.

To think that you will get perfect timing almost every time and suggest that it is a feature of the gun is absurd.

If you have to have all these freaky glitches and uber timing stuff to out damage the Javelin, then the Javelin has already won.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Drummernate wrote...
How often do you squeeze 2 sniper shots into one cloak cycle during an actual engagement while dodging Prime shots and Banshee warps and Phantom cannons?

You don't.

Especially on consoles where we don't have medigel canceling.

To think that you will get perfect timing almost every time and suggest that it is a feature of the gun is absurd.

If you have to have all these freaky glitches and uber timing stuff to out damage the Javelin, then the Javelin has already won.

have you seen either of my kishok videos? it's pretty easy to do.
granted reload cancelling and squeezing a second shot in with a kishok is a bit easier to do than with a widow.
it is possible with both guns.

and even if you ignore said freaky glitches.
Javelin still loses out to black widow and indra for any purpose I can reasonably think of.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 01 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[RazRei]

You know I was just thinking and do you know what the automotive equivalent the Krysae is?

A Nissan GT-R. Very automatic run by computers, very helpful, AWD system that puts pretty much everyone else but Porsches' to shame, pulls out supercar beating numbers at 80~90k. Heavy as **** but hell who cares when this thing makes you look so good.

The Kishok and to a lesser extent the BW/Valiant?

The brand new Toyota GT86/Mazda Miata. Very real cars that give you feedback. Great amazing chassis that needs to be in the hands of a skilled driver to pull out all the stops.

[jerrinehart]

Kittstalkur wrote...

jerrinehart wrote...

Dude, yesterday I two manned Gold
Reapers like 5 games in a row with just an AA and AJ, noone is crying
nerf for BE's, etc. Just cause something actually works well, dosen't
mean it's OP. It just means they need to fix the stuff that dosen't work
at all.

Actually, they did, and they have been nerfed. They have a smaller area of effect now.

Matthias King wrote...

All hyperbole and sarcasm aside, that recent stat page Bioware put out showed that only 3.5% of all successful extractions were on gold.  3.5%  Think about that for a second.  If gold is so easy and there are all these supposedly overpowered weapons that some people want nerfed, then why isn't that number way higher?  Huh?  Why?

People stop caring once the wave 10 objective is done. I know I stop using consumables. A number of squads just commit sudoku so they can get another game five minutes faster.

I think the real problem is, everyone has acknowledged the Geth Plasma Shotgun is a noobtube. It carries classes, and everyone acknowledges it. So why the constant nerf herding when THE overpowered gun is left untouched?

I have never once, in all of the Gold games I have played, had a team die after the objective on wave 10 on purpose, ever.

[jerrinehart]

I don't know now much more simply I can put this, but I do not agree, I think you are wrong, and I think it's silly to even make a post about this when there are so many more constructive things we could be hashing out. Whatever.

Modifié par jerrinehart, 01 juin 2012 - 02:31 .

[InfamousResult]

jerrinehart wrote...

I have never once, in all of the Gold games I have played, had a team die after the objective on wave 10 on purpose, ever.

Most farming groups do. You'll see it most commonly on FBW/G/G or similar farming setups, where people are most interested in Credits. I tend to avoid such rooms, or at the least, try to make it through Extraction anyway if someone on the team isn't at Level 20 yet.