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[Arcane_Warrior_Revan]

I know that the Fade is the dream realm, where humans and elves go, when they sleep, but according to the Chantry only those who followed the teachings of Andraste and worship the Maker, will be with him, those who didn't, will be left alone to wander the Fade forever. So those chosen by the Maker go beyond the Fade when they die?

So, when humans and elves sleep, do their souls go to the Fade or only their minds? but when they die their souls go to the Fade?

And if mages are special because only they can enter the Fade in a conscious state, they are "awake".

But they still are almost kinapped in the middle of the night by the Templars, in order to pass the Harrowing and prove themselves that they can handle their gift / curse.

So, why they need to perform the ritual of the Harrowing? couldn't they just defeat a demon when they are sleeping?

Or does it mean that they are like every other mortal when they sleep, and can only enter the Fade awake, through the Harrowing?

What do you think?

Modifié par Arcane_Warrior_Revan, 06 juin 2012 - 08:21 .

[vortex216]

mages do reamain concious when they go to they fade when they sleep. the fade is the place where humans and elves pass through when they die. the harrowing is speical because you cant leave until the demon is defeated. hope that clears it up a little

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

vortex216 wrote...

mages do reamain concious when they go to they fade when they sleep. the fade is the place where humans and elves pass through when they die. the harrowing is speical because you cant leave until the demon is defeated. hope that clears it up a little

It is also implied that running into a demon in your sleep is not a sure thing, but that the Templars have some way of ensuring that there is a demon present for the Harrowing. Of course, it was Mouse saying that, but really, what good the test be if that wasn't the case?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As to the soul thing, I dunno. It seems the comics have some dead mage's soul still in the Fade, but I don't know what the deal was with that. It seems to imply that yes, if there is an afterlife, the way to it is through the Fade, but on the other hand, there's no proof she didn't just hide out in the Fade rather than allow herself to die.

[Klidi]

I don't think mages remain conscious in the Fade when they sleep, without the ritual. Except somniari (spelling?) - like that young elf mage you save from slavers in DA2.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

I don't think mages remain conscious in the Fade when they sleep, without the ritual. Except somniari (spelling?) - like that young elf mage you save from slavers in DA2.

They are supposed to. Wynne mentions remembering her dreams, especially the Spirit of Faith.

And I think you got teh spellng rihgt.

[Klidi]

And yet, when Sloth traps them in his realm, Wynne is not able to recognize it. To save Connor, you need a ritual, either with a lot of mages and lyrium, or blood magic, to enter the Fade, even if you are a mage. To save the elf in DA2, Marethari must also perform the ritual so you can enter the Fade, even if you are a mage. And Marethari explains somniari are very rare. If every mage was able to stay conscious in the Fade, they would be normal - in fact, every mage would be somniari.

So I think it's more complicated - just falling asleep is not enough. It requires ritual, or a spell of a powerful demon - that will transport the mage into the specific part of the Fade. Only somniari can do it without any external help.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

And yet, when Sloth traps them in his realm, Wynne is not able to recognize it. To save Connor, you need a ritual, either with a lot of mages and lyrium, or blood magic, to enter the Fade, even if you are a mage. To save the elf in DA2, Marethari must also perform the ritual so you can enter the Fade, even if you are a mage. And Marethari explains somniari are very rare. If every mage was able to stay conscious in the Fade, they would be normal - in fact, every mage would be somniari.

So I think it's more complicated - just falling asleep is not enough. It requires ritual, or a spell of a powerful demon - that will transport the mage into the specific part of the Fade. Only somniari can do it without any external help.

First, Sloth is mentioned to be really good at distracting mortal slaves. It doesn't show much, and his trap for Wynne (and his trap for the Warden, for that matter) is kind of weak, but since it's implied there's some mind control going on, I suppose she can be excused. On the other hand, Morrigan figures out  she's in The Fade almost immediately, so that both supports my interpretation that magi default to being concious while within the Fade and makes Wynne utterly laughable.

As for needing the ritual to get in, falling asleep on command isn't all that easy. I should know: I'm still awake at this ungodly hour. With magic involved, one might get around that problem, but I think the idea behind the ritual is that in addition to knocking you out cold, it's supposed to point you towards... whatever you're looking for. Connor's mind-tapeworm, Feynriel, whatever. Or maybe it just means that you won't leave the Fade if anything happens that would otherwise wake you up.

At any rate, the point about Feynriel being unique mainly in that he's concious in the Fade... I dunno. I'd like to point out that this mission just makes the nature of the Fade even more confusing, since between non-mages staying aware in the Fade without a demon involved, Anders being hijacked by Justice when Faith doesn't seem to do that, and Feynriel doing all of the mind-control stuff without blood to fuel it (the lore previously established in Dragon Age: Origins seems to indicate that that's what's so unique about him, along with being able to fall asleep at will) this quest seems to exist for the sole purpose of turning every single previously established rule of The Fade on its head. That said, I'm getting this entirely from Wikia: I have no interest in any game buggier than a night outside without 'skeeter repellant. (Speaking of which, I just checked the wiki. Nothing on Feynriel's page, or the page about his abilities, suggests that remaining awake while in the Fade is unique to him.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[Klidi]

Nothing on wiki suggests that mages stay awake, either. It says only this - whatever it means:

Every living being, with the exception of dwarves, enters the Fade mentally when they dream and mages tap into it when they cast spells. Most people do not remember their time in the Fade, but mages are forced to recall.

But I generally rely more on my own brain, and don't accept external resources as a 'word of god', unless it is clearly based on something in the game. Nothing I know about the Fade from the game proves your point, sorry.

this quest seems to exist for the sole purpose of turning every single previously established rule of The Fade on its head.

You mean, your understanding of the Fade. It works nice with my theory. And, I don't think Wynne is laughable. She may be annoying sometimes, but she's not weak as a mage, or laughable.

Modifié par Klidi, 01 juin 2012 - 01:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

Nothing on wiki suggests that mages stay awake, either. It says only this - whatever it means:

Every living being, with the exception of dwarves, enters the Fade mentally when they dream and mages tap into it when they cast spells. Most people do not remember their time in the Fade, but mages are forced to recall.

But I generally rely more on my own brain, and don't accept external resources as a 'word of god', unless it is clearly based on something in the game. Nothing I know about the Fade from the game proves your point, sorry.

Okay, yeah, but I've already told you what I have (in-game) that does seem to indicate mages stay concious in the Fade. And you don't seem to have addressed my questions about Morrigan figuring out what was going on.

this quest seems to exist for the sole purpose of turning every single previously established rule of The Fade on its head.

You mean, your understanding of the Fade. It works nice with my theory. And, I don't think Wynne is laughable. She may be annoying sometimes, but she's not weak as a mage, or laughable.

Okay, so you're able to explain how Marethari sends non-mages into the Fade, and why Justice takes Anders over when Faith doesn't do that for Wynne? Because I don't see how that works. (Let's just ignore Feynriel, he's outright established as a special case. {Unless your theory has a specific explanation for him. Of course, a theory that outright requires him is probably shaky.} Besides, he's probably just being used to set up the Final Boss of DA3. Either he is the boss, or the boss beats him senseless to drive home that we mere mortal players should be scared.)

As for Wynne being laughable, play through the Sloth quest again. Narm-tastic!

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Klidi]

Morrigan realized what's going on, yes. So so does the Warden. Even though he's not a mage. So it proves nothing, sorry.

Faith had different relationship with Wynne than Justice with Anders. It never turned hostile, probably because Wynne is not so full of negative emotions as Anders. Which proves she's not laughable, btw.
No, I won't ignore Feynriel. Nice little manipulation attempt. If you can't prove something wrong, ignore it and say it's shaky. I'd say that on the contrary, any theory that ignores somniari is shaky.
Somniari have a rare ability to enter the Fade at their will. Which means it is not normal - and we see it confirmed in both games. The mages who have to enter the Fade are not given the sleeping potion. They have to participate in a ritual. If they were conscious in the Fade if they were asleep, they could find their way by themselves...
While we can argue that maybe the ritual only makes it faster, the fact remains that we do not know that for certain. All we know from the games is that simply falling asleep is obviously not enough.
Marethari's ritual was obviously different from the ritual of Circle Mages, because Dalish magic is also different (remember Velanna?) Circle Mages use lyrium for the ritual. But the trade is controlled by the Chantry, and I doubt they'd be willing to share with elven heathens. So they obviously use something else. I have no problem with accepting the fact that Dalish ritual is different and has also different effects. And if there was a Tevinter mage, maybe it would be yet different. Still no problem there.
But the base is always the same - you want to enter the Fade, you need a ritual.

As for guesses about DA3, that's still far in the future, I think. But I don't believe Feynriel will be that important. It's more likely that most things Hawke was doing will be ignored, like most things Warden was doing were ignored.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Found the Codex on lyrium, you were right. It seems like the only difference between mages and non-mages is that mages remember their dreams. (This seems to imply some sort of consciousness, but whatever.)

That said, Marethari is still ignoring the rules as set forth by Dragon Age. The same Codex I'm citing still notes that lyrium is necessary to put mages into the Fade. No word on non-mages, definitely no word on Varric (who Marethari can send into the Fade.) One would think the Circle would have figured out all this was possible, differences in magical culture or not.

And basing a theory on Somniari would have been pretty shaky. Coming up with a theory that explains him less so. That's not what I was saying. At any rate, even though it held up, the point you made about Somniari being able to enter the Fade at will meaning that other mages are not self-aware in it was still pretty tenuous. And being aware in the Fade is not the same as being able to find your way around, so if Bioware hadn't said in the Codex the lyrium is necessary, I would be arguing that the ritual merely puts them within walking distance of whatever it is.

As for Wynne being laughable... were you listening to her dialogue in the Sloth quest?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2012 - 10:15 .

[Arcane_Warrior_Revan]

Klidi wrote...

Morrigan realized what's going on, yes. So so does the Warden. Even though he's not a mage. So it proves nothing, sorry.

Faith had different relationship with Wynne than Justice with Anders. It never turned hostile, probably because Wynne is not so full of negative emotions as Anders. Which proves she's not laughable, btw.
No, I won't ignore Feynriel. Nice little manipulation attempt. If you can't prove something wrong, ignore it and say it's shaky. I'd say that on the contrary, any theory that ignores somniari is shaky.
Somniari have a rare ability to enter the Fade at their will. Which means it is not normal - and we see it confirmed in both games. The mages who have to enter the Fade are not given the sleeping potion. They have to participate in a ritual. If they were conscious in the Fade if they were asleep, they could find their way by themselves...
While we can argue that maybe the ritual only makes it faster, the fact remains that we do not know that for certain. All we know from the games is that simply falling asleep is obviously not enough.
Marethari's ritual was obviously different from the ritual of Circle Mages, because Dalish magic is also different (remember Velanna?) Circle Mages use lyrium for the ritual. But the trade is controlled by the Chantry, and I doubt they'd be willing to share with elven heathens. So they obviously use something else. I have no problem with accepting the fact that Dalish ritual is different and has also different effects. And if there was a Tevinter mage, maybe it would be yet different. Still no problem there.
But the base is always the same - you want to enter the Fade, you need a ritual.

As for guesses about DA3, that's still far in the future, I think. But I don't believe Feynriel will be that important. It's more likely that most things Hawke was doing will be ignored, like most things Warden was doing were ignored.

Excuse me, but my Warden was a mage.

Ok, the lore says that mages remember their dreams, so I think that they indeed can enter The Fade when they sleep, they only enter the "Other World" (Dream Realm) but, to reach a specific point and find a specific person they need the Ritual to enter the Fade, after all the Fade is HUGE, it might be infinite.

About Somniari: (this is from the wiki)

"A dreamer, or somniari in Elvish, is a mage capable of entering the Fade at will, without the aid of lyrium. A talented dreamer can shape the Fade and affect the dreams of sleeping people, killing or driving them mad."

It seems that somniari have very similar abilities to the native inhabitants of the Fade, because they can shape the Fade at their will, and affect the dreams of sleeping people, they can enter wherever they want and seek out whoever they want.

That's why they are so special.

That's my opinion, what do you think?

Modifié par Arcane_Warrior_Revan, 06 juin 2012 - 10:23 .

[Arcane_Warrior_Revan]

And yes, I think that Wynne is laughable, because she is a mage and she is

supposed to know that she is in the Fade, Morrigan realized that, but also Sten!!

and he's not a mage, if you play with a non-mage Warden, he can also figure out

that he is in the Fade.

I think that Sten and a non-mage Warden can recognize that they are in the Fade

because they have a strong willpower and it was a special case, because the Sloth

demon sent them in the Fade using a spell, fueled by the life force of Niall (a mage).

I also think it was a special case, because Shale (who normally doesn't sleep) and Oghren entered the Fade (dwarves normally don't enter the Fade), even Dog entered the Fade! (although I'm not sure if dogs normally can enter the Fade when they sleep) XD.

Modifié par Arcane_Warrior_Revan, 06 juin 2012 - 10:15 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane_Warrior_Revan wrote...

And yes, I think that Wynne is laughable, becuase she is a mage and she is
supposed to know that she is in the Fade, Morrigan realized that, but also Sten!!
and he's not a mage, if you play with a non-mage Warden, he can also figure out
that he is in the Fade.

Well, if there really is mind control going on, then Wynne can be excused. Sten was (apparently) not controlled, but it was also clear he would have stayed either way without the Warden's prodding. Still, one has to wonder why Morrigan wasn't controlled. It's possible that the demon just didn't do a good job with Morrigan...

I think that Sten an a non-mage Warden can recognize that they are in the Fade
because they have a strong willpower and it was a special case, because the Sloth
demon sent them in the Fade using a spell, fueled by the life force of the Niall (a mage).

That makes sense, actually. Niall mentions that the demon gets stronger based on absorbing human souls that it has trapped. Maybe that's how he draws Oghren, Shale, and a dwarf Warden in.

As to why Sten realizes he's in the Fade, I think it might be that the demon just didn't bother to control him, or at least not to that extent. Sten doesn't do anything with his knowledge. He just sits on it, because at least he gets his friends back. That might indicate some degree of mind control, but the demon doesn't sink its claws in as deep as it does with Wynne.

I also think it was a special case, because Shale (who normally doesn't sleep) and Oghren enter the Fade (dwarves normally don't enter the Fade), even Dog entered the Fade! (although I'm not sure if dogs normally can enter the Fade when they sleep) XD.

Dogs can't enter the Fade when they sleep. I say this because the implications of Dog taking a nap in the Fade with that as the case make my head want to explode, and therefore I will never allow myself to be convinced, no matter how good the evidence.