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Wave Combat - why?


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#101
bEVEsthda

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Nomen Mendax wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

I think timers are so disliked, much because it's so hard to judge the urgence. That's what bothers me anyway. You don't get a feel for the timer and your goals, the first time (or even times) you play the game. And I have to say that the first time I play a game, is the all important one. That's when I let all my choices stand. That's when I care.

But that sounds like a very manageable problem.  It would be easy to provide this information in a journal, and even remind the player periodically (or have NPCs come and complain that you haven't completed their quest and time is running out).


It does, doesn't it? Lol. Problem is that's it's still a question of *feel*. This solution helps the player not to ultimately fail, but the player is still unsure of how to manage the time. An uncertainty that will squeeze the player out of the game immersion and consider metagaming solutions to get a better grasp. And it's players' feelings which makes it disliked. It's how the player perceive it, that is the problem, not how it is.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 02 juin 2012 - 08:28 .


#102
Wulfram

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Personally what I'd advocate is having occasional short timers, rather than one long one. The occasional quest which needs to be done quickly, mixed in with the rest. Though that would certainly require not having every quest described as urgent, so that the ones which are actually urgent can be determined.

You could also have some occasions where you get a choice of which quest to do first, with there being consequences to your choice - you can still do both quests, but perhaps a few more people get eaten in the second one you visit.

The other thing I'd say is that when the story says the player shouldn't dawdle, you could simply avoid putting in reasons for them to do so. Just cut down on the gratuitous loot and don't stick in minor sidequests if the player is supposed to be involved in a desperate race for time. Save them for the more slowly paced periods of the game.

#103
Sylvius the Mad

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I'm a bit concerned that the timers would be used to encourage specific means of solving a quest, and if a means was doomed to fail because of the timer the developers wouldn't even bother including it as an option.

#104
Mike 9987

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Had the spawning come in more realistically (i.e. they came running from out of line of sight) would it have been received better?

It'd prevent the situation where a foe inexplicably spawns right beside the character.


If it makes sense, it may be slightly better. As in make sense, i mean no enemies running from behind you, from a corridor you just came from and killing everything from. Simularly, if enemies come down a corridor you have not traveled down yet, there should not be a new set of enemies waiting there for you. 

#105
Allan Schumacher

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fallout would not have been half the game it was without the timer. The Atelier games still do it, everything you do from travel to combat takes time. Initially it does not seem like you have a lot of it and for someone unfamiliar it's probably quite overwhelming.

While I don't like "real time" because it means you need to rush around (finish dungeon X within 15:00 for an S rank). I do like abstract time which moves when you travel. It makes everything you do important and can have consequences later on. I don't think you will find many developers who will actually allow people to fail in that way though. Nothing beyond the obligitory mission critical fail reload stuff.


I don't know the Atelier games (I don't have a PS) but I agree with you about Fallout.  I never really understood the objections because you actually had a substantial amount of time to find the chip (and were periodically reminded that you needed to find it before everyone died).


I think timers are so disliked, much because it's so hard to judge the urgence. That's what bothers me anyway. You don't get a feel for the timer and your goals, the first time (or even times) you play the game. And I have to say that the first time I play a game, is the all important one. That's when I let all my choices stand. That's when I care.


That's what I liked so much about the original Fallout.  I had 150 days and for all I knew it was going to take 75 days to find the thing.... I hope it takes me less than 75 to get back!

For some players it adds tension. But for some, just frustration.  I also play Diablo 3 exclusively on hardcore, so take that for what you will! :P

#106
Nomen Mendax

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's what I liked so much about the original Fallout.  I had 150 days and for all I knew it was going to take 75 days to find the thing.... I hope it takes me less than 75 to get back!

For some players it adds tension. But for some, just frustration.  I also play Diablo 3 exclusively on hardcore, so take that for what you will! :P

Which raises one (partial) solution - maybe timers could be allowed to vary like difficulty levels.

#107
Allan Schumacher

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Nomen Mendax wrote...

Which raises one (partial) solution - maybe timers could be allowed to vary like difficulty levels.



That could work, though I think in general timing the player is not very well received.  Especially for "crit path" stuff.  I think it's unfortunate, but many like RPGs for allowing them to do the things they want to do in the game world at a pace that is comfortable for them to do so.

#108
Dragoonlordz

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
I also play Diablo 3 exclusively on hardcore, so take that for what you will! :P


Oh I see.. Your insane. :lol:

I have stayed a million miles away from HC mode myself due to server issues they have had since launch.

#109
Dragoonlordz

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On topic of wave syatem, I have said it before and will just say it again.

Combat, Mechanics and Difficulty

Combat mechanics in DA2 I didn't mind so much, with exception of waves of instant spawning mobs and the blood felt like was painted on in very specific way in which the locations of the blood always tended to be same spots. Monsters exploded like lego parts was not really a turn on for me. I liked the faster pace with less shuffle.

The 'reinforcement' system should not be used unless your being pitted against an army or vast battlefield, including 'some' boss based battles. The 'wave' or reinforcement system should not be used for every single fight ever in games. It's unrealistic and tedious. The teleporting should be left for mages and spirits and even then through animations that can attribute to casting a teleportation spell else just use the doors and such like supposed to when entering or exiting a place. There is no real tactical use for implementing the kind of waves in DA2.

When applying tactics the enemies must be using clear shown tactics in how came into the battle such as stage by stage type evolution of reinforcement (archers, warriors, casters etc minor and major mobs timed and more exaclty location based different approaches for units and mobs) and not willy nilly drop and spank method using completley random placement and units. Most battles should have set placements (static mobs) amount of units while the major battles (story and location based) should apply reinforcements method only (even then using real tactics to approach not just dropping in random units at random places). That is what I would like to see.

If it comes down to applying difficulty to the combat you improve the tactics using much better implementation of reinforcements AND more to my liking is the DAO approach of to make progression harder through the game via varying strength between different mob types and not auto leveling of all mobs to match your own level regardless of unit type. Not a wave system on every fight to make up for lack of difficulty. Bring in new unit types as progress, stronger specific units as the game progresses while keeping the older models and units weak as you out level them, more cannon fodder to back up the new stronger ones as progress in battles as opposed to linking the weak random bandits to your maximum level hero's.

I want more features relating to out of combat skills/abilities. If I recall one of the major topics of discussion from people was they said they wanted out of combat skills more widely implemented after DA2 was released. Cloaking and pick pocketing, locks and traps (done better than shown in DA2). But the general consensus was people liked the idea behind more such features not removal. I personally would also like the return of crafting by the player not what we got in DA2 with regard to just finding a resource and someone else making it. These sorts of things are part in parcel of the role playing experience for me and I would like both to be more present and improved upon.

I never found stealth a useless skill or pick pocket, both were fun and both were ~used therefore by definition was not a useless skill. As such should of kept them imho and I hope they come back. Same applies to crafting while some people may attack my view on this I think it needs without doubt to be deeper and opened up a great deal more to what can craft from more armour, weapons, potions, traps even runes, it seemed to me to be far too inadequate in DA2 for my personal liking. Ones that have possible uses in both elements from stealth which in battle can be used for scouting and out of combat combined with pick pocketing as alternative ways to complete quests. Just one example of many. Traps and such disarm or placement for purpose of ambush after scouting in stealth being another combat skill which adds tactical elements to fights and battles.

With regard to the problem they had with closing in on casters and ranged mobs, there I feel was no need for jutsu techniques. Tactics could be used instead, from standing behind walls worked in most case or behind rocks or trees they would have to come closer or around corners to attack you putting them within range of your melee characters. Limited supply of arrows or mana again opens up opportunities for closing the gaps. These tactical elements add to the enjoyment for some but I have to admit not for everyone. Having casters and ranged members on your team also can be used to counter such, it is after all a party based game with companions present most of the time. When you are forced in a segment to be alone they could alter the fights in that section to give ways around a problem rather than relying on what felt like teleportation even though the excuse was just to fast to see move (sorry might be bit mean but it's just not how it feels to me).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 juin 2012 - 04:01 .


#110
Nomen Mendax

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Which raises one (partial) solution - maybe timers could be allowed to vary like difficulty levels.



That could work, though I think in general timing the player is not very well received.  Especially for "crit path" stuff.  I think it's unfortunate, but many like RPGs for allowing them to do the things they want to do in the game world at a pace that is comfortable for them to do so.

You could well be right, but it's a shame.  So have you died in HC mode Diablo 3 (and have you found lots of pants)?

#111
Allan Schumacher

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I have only died once so far, and it was because of the poor way they implemented their checkpoints. When you resume your game you start at the last checkpoint, which in this case for me was in a hostile zone. I died while loading in.

I wrote a ticket to Blizzard saying they should change this (always start in town) but learned that I should always make a note of where I am. If I don't remember, start at the most recent plot point which starts me off in town.


The constant fear of death makes the game 1000x more exhilarating for me though. Coming through that super close call is awesome haha.

#112
AkiKishi

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fallout would not have been half the game it was without the timer. The Atelier games still do it, everything you do from travel to combat takes time. Initially it does not seem like you have a lot of it and for someone unfamiliar it's probably quite overwhelming.

While I don't like "real time" because it means you need to rush around (finish dungeon X within 15:00 for an S rank). I do like abstract time which moves when you travel. It makes everything you do important and can have consequences later on. I don't think you will find many developers who will actually allow people to fail in that way though. Nothing beyond the obligitory mission critical fail reload stuff.


I don't know the Atelier games (I don't have a PS) but I agree with you about Fallout.  I never really understood the objections because you actually had a substantial amount of time to find the chip (and were periodically reminded that you needed to find it before everyone died).


I think timers are so disliked, much because it's so hard to judge the urgence. That's what bothers me anyway. You don't get a feel for the timer and your goals, the first time (or even times) you play the game. And I have to say that the first time I play a game, is the all important one. That's when I let all my choices stand. That's when I care.


That's what I liked so much about the original Fallout.  I had 150 days and for all I knew it was going to take 75 days to find the thing.... I hope it takes me less than 75 to get back!

For some players it adds tension. But for some, just frustration.  I also play Diablo 3 exclusively on hardcore, so take that for what you will! :P


Greater the risk ,the greater the reward. It's one thing to play a game and do a bunch of side quests because they are there. Quite another to have to look at your days remaning and have to choose not to do something for the sake of the mission. Or to risk that mission on something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.
I still recall one from FO where I got tagged badly by a deathclaw and lost 10 days healing, I was far more respectful of deathclaws after that (at least until the turbo plasma).Image IPB

Hardcore Diablo what's not to love? Again you are putting something real on the line (hours of your life you will never get back). It's the same with games like Fire Emblem. While the MC's death results in a reload, if anyone else dies the game continues but they are lost forever (believe Baldurs Gate originally did something like this too where someone could get chunked).

While I don't really play Iron Man games the ways I used too (games have gotten easier anyway so reloading is sometimes not an issue anyway) I do kind of miss that rush and that knowing that failure meant starting over, not just replaying the last 5 minutes.

A Hardcore/OldSkool mode ala Fallout New Vegas may well be worth looking into.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 juin 2012 - 08:08 .


#113
Guest_Rojahar_*

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Speaking of timers, I was just playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution (a game with a lot of elements which I think would complement Bioware's style), and I was told I needed to hurry to my objection. Instead, I screwed around and didn't go there for like an hour or two. Because of that, some hostages were killed. It wasn't some unreasonable timer, like the location I needed to get to was an hour away. I purposely neglected the main objective, which the story made out to sound urgent, and was thus punished for it.

I don't think everything should be timed in all games, nor should the timers too often (or even ever) be something you'd ever have to WORRY about, but do like timers existing just to add some sense of believability and entertainment.

For example, some 10 second timer on the dialog wheel before it auto-chooses/fails would be stressful for a lot of people, however, I think it would add a lot to the wheel if there was say... a 5 minute invisible timer, where some kind of an interesting unique easter egg result happens from excessive indecisiveness.

Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.

#114
Dakota Strider

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Rojahar wrote...

Speaking of timers, I was just playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution (a game with a lot of elements which I think would complement Bioware's style), and I was told I needed to hurry to my objection. Instead, I screwed around and didn't go there for like an hour or two. Because of that, some hostages were killed. It wasn't some unreasonable timer, like the location I needed to get to was an hour away. I purposely neglected the main objective, which the story made out to sound urgent, and was thus punished for it.

I don't think everything should be timed in all games, nor should the timers too often (or even ever) be something you'd ever have to WORRY about, but do like timers existing just to add some sense of believability and entertainment.

For example, some 10 second timer on the dialog wheel before it auto-chooses/fails would be stressful for a lot of people, however, I think it would add a lot to the wheel if there was say... a 5 minute invisible timer, where some kind of an interesting unique easter egg result happens from excessive indecisiveness.

Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.


The main reason I would oppose your idea, is because I have a life outside of the game, that may call me away at any second.  Being able to pause...or leave in the middle of a conversation, and come back to it much later without the game going forward without me is important.  I do like a sense of urgency, but if the game requires you to be attentive to it at all times, then I will have to decide between the game and family.  Not much of a contest there.  There can be no "real time" timers for conversation.   Conversations in Bioware games can be lengthy, and that is a good thing.  But we need to be able to walk away from the screen if necessary, and not find out something has happened, because we were not there to click at the right time.

Finding a way to use "game-clock" timers for mission completion, for certain quests would be good.  As long as the player can pause at any time.

#115
Sylvius the Mad

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Dakota Strider wrote...

The main reason I would oppose your idea, is because I have a life outside of the game, that may call me away at any second.  Being able to pause...or leave in the middle of a conversation, and come back to it much later without the game going forward without me is important.  I do like a sense of urgency, but if the game requires you to be attentive to it at all times, then I will have to decide between the game and family.  Not much of a contest there.  There can be no "real time" timers for conversation.   Conversations in Bioware games can be lengthy, and that is a good thing.  But we need to be able to walk away from the screen if necessary, and not find out something has happened, because we were not there to click at the right time.

I agree entirely.  Conversations and cutscenes should be pausable.

#116
Vaeliorin

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Rojahar wrote...
Speaking of timers, I was just playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution (a game with a lot of elements which I think would complement Bioware's style), and I was told I needed to hurry to my objection. Instead, I screwed around and didn't go there for like an hour or two. Because of that, some hostages were killed. It wasn't some unreasonable timer, like the location I needed to get to was an hour away. I purposely neglected the main objective, which the story made out to sound urgent, and was thus punished for it.

If you're referring to the quest I think you are, I hated it. It was right at the beginning of the game, and I was looking around, trying to get my bearings and get used to the controls and exploration style of the game, and I got punished for that.

My favorite timer in a game was in Wizardry 7. In that game, you had to find fragments of a map, and depending on how long you took to get to them, they could be found by members of the various factions who were also after the map. That meant you then had to find those faction members and get the map fragments from them. I remember being stunned the first time I found one of the map fragments in what I'd assumed was always an empty chest.

#117
Cultist

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lyleoffmyspace wrote...

Why was the wave based combat in DA2? It was stupid, ruined immersion and turned every fight into an endurance fest and threw positioning out the window entirely.

It's fine in some situations (eg. last stands) but stupid for the vast majority of fights.

So...any idea why Bioware put it in?

Because EA

#118
Allan Schumacher

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Rojahar wrote...
Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.



Hahaha I really like this idea!

#119
KaiLyn

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rojahar wrote...
Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.



Hahaha I really like this idea!


So do I - there ARE times when I feel indecisive in-game and it would be awesome if an NPC would chide me for it.  It would also be awesome if I could ask the others in my team what they think like the decision about Connor in Recliffe as part of the process; it felt important but what if you decide to go to the Circle but had to be back within 24 hours or he'd go ballistic again?!?  :blink:

#120
Dakota Strider

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KaiLyn wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rojahar wrote...
Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.



Hahaha I really like this idea!


So do I - there ARE times when I feel indecisive in-game and it would be awesome if an NPC would chide me for it.  It would also be awesome if I could ask the others in my team what they think like the decision about Connor in Recliffe as part of the process; it felt important but what if you decide to go to the Circle but had to be back within 24 hours or he'd go ballistic again?!?  :blink:


Sure....it sounds cool now.  But I have a feeling that would turn out to be just like Noober in Baldur's gate.  The guy who is so annoying, that keeps interupting your party, anytime they pass within earshot of him.

#121
Allan Schumacher

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Noober actively followed you around though. If this is a comment line of "So what's it going to be" or something like that, and only happens after 10+ seconds of no response, I wouldn't be surprised if many people never even knew such a feature even existed.

#122
berelinde

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KaiLyn wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rojahar wrote...
Another possibility is an ILLUSION of a timer. Let's say you're thinking of how to respond at the dialog wheel for... maybe a full minute, maybe 30 seconds, whatever felt like a good amount of time... and so the NPC you're talking to says something, like "What's wrong with you?" or "Make up your mind?" or if they're an enemy with a hostage, threatens to kill the hostage. Now, they'd never actually do anything in this scenario, they'd just act like they're going to, which wouldn't rush you, but create the illusion of the player character being rushed.



Hahaha I really like this idea!


So do I - there ARE times when I feel indecisive in-game and it would be awesome if an NPC would chide me for it.  It would also be awesome if I could ask the others in my team what they think like the decision about Connor in Recliffe as part of the process; it felt important but what if you decide to go to the Circle but had to be back within 24 hours or he'd go ballistic again?!?  :blink:

Yeah, it would be awesome if you had a fixed time to respond, but you know what would be even *more* awesome? If we could pause dialogue during dialogue or cutscenes when we really and truly do have to walk away from the computer for a few moments *right now*.  And no, if you're playing on the PC, you can't hit the X button or bring up a menu to pause the screen, and if you minimize the screen, the thing just keeps on playing without you.

Anybody who lives with one or more other people can tell you that that other person will always wait until a key dialogue or cutscene to start a real-life conversation.

#123
Reznore57

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Meredith "So champion , make up your mind !Which side will you choose?!"
Hawke :"Yeah , right...can it wait for like 10 minutes?I really really have to pee..."
Meredith"....."

#124
Dakota Strider

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Reznore57 wrote...

Meredith "So champion , make up your mind !Which side will you choose?!"
Hawke :"Yeah , right...can it wait for like 10 minutes?I really really have to pee..."
Meredith"....."


....continued
Meredith:  I judge by your silence you don't care?
Hawke:  I can't hear you "holds hands over ears" la la la

#125
Reznore57

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Varric :And then The champion wet his pants.That's what drove Meredith mad....
Cassandra :Bulls***!