260 réponses à ce sujet

[Mevanna]

ShdwPlayer wrote...

Okay I'm talking to two people now so let me address this first. The fact that you do feel this way in a coop game is just kinda silly (pardon the expression I know your feelings are legit). The Javelin is still a beast and in no way has your damage output changed from before. The only difference now is that a teammate who might be using the krysae is killing more things.

You are now arguing how the gun (Actually a teammate using that gun) is making you feel. Other people in other nerf threads have said it before in cases where the argument is like this - just mind yourself. Multiplayer is barely a competition as it is. Why play it like one and make yourself feel bad as if you were competing against other players - who "beat you"?

True - competitiveness shouldn't be a reason. Sorry if I made it sound like that, I guess I'm vain enough to be a little bothered to be beaten with no regard to skill  (does that smiley look sheepish or just... blank?) 

Still, the actual point I was trying to make was - snipers need more time to make their kills. And the Krysae kills enemies as fast and throws them around almost as much as a Novaguard would on bronze, making it all but impossible to set up a decent shot.

Plus, there's the whole balance thing - even if it's a non-competitive co-op game, the various classes and weapons should ideally all have equal potential so you can play whichever one you like without being disadvantaged. Of course you can't ever achieve perfect balance, but a weapon that so blatantly outperforms all others kinda sticks out.

[AlienAtSystem]

To answer your question: An Infiltrator had a lot of fun before the Krysae came along. I was not involved in the Falcon debate and probably would have argued against it. So nerfing the Krysae is not taking away fun as much as the Falcon was.

[TheSevered]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

Probably Placement. I had the outer sniper position for my own.

Mm, I'm usually standing inbetween the two desks in the room, so I have angle on both staircases. But yeah there's a lot more shared damage on the enemies in those rooms forsure.

[billy the squid]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

It's the multiple shot capacity, splash damage and the high damage combined which cause the problems if it's used on a GI, the combination of Hunter mode and Tac. Cloak speced for sniper damage ge damage boost. Stick on the extended barrel and pierce mods, with the sniper amp gear and you can wipe the floor with pretty much anything. It's the combination of the above which is causing the disagreement whether it is op or not, Not the weapon itself.

.

It is correct that an Infiltrator can mop the floor with whatever rifle he takes, but up until now it was one enemy at a time. That was what defined an Infiltrator. With the Krysae, his "imbalance" is suddenly obvious. Nevermind that mopping the floor with the whole Platoon is the job for the Biotic, not the quy with the bolt-action rifle.

And there in lies the stalemate which has to be broken. An armour piercing rifle which fire explosive rounds. Sounds great, except it doesn't pierce armour, paticularly when in comparison to both Widows and the Javelin. Yet it has splash damage which is more in line with a small grenade than and explosive round. The description doesn't bear relation to the in game function of the weapon.

If one reduces the damage overall, but neglects the lack of piercing ability against armour. Then there's little point in taking it over either of the Widows. Which can both deal with things more effectively, both the rabble and the larger armoured targets. The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitors so what would be the point in using it?

Nerf the damage output and it becomes situational at best. There are issues with balance as with any new weapon introduced. But, bashing it with the nerf stick is not the answer, paticularly only a couple of days after it was released. I don't know whether the splash damage benefits from the 40% tac cloak boost of the infiltrator, but that would be something to look at. Especially if the damage doesn't decline away from the point of impact. In addition I don't think it recieves the headshot damage bonus, which other rifles get. Hence, hence I'm against nerfing damage outright, until all this is known.

I can pinpoint a shot and take the head off a phantom or a Geth Prime with a Widow. I haven't been able to with the Krysae. The Primes drones get take the hit, I can avoid them with a Widow. The issues I see with it are the splash damage, which makes it very effective vs unarmoured targets, but it's offset by the lack of armour piercing and limited ammo capacity. The fact that I can place mods and gear on to boost the damage, doesn't make the weapon worthy of nerfing. Or me shooting through 3 guardians with a Widow or killing a Prime in 3 shots before the patch would also have called for a nerf. Krysae has it's strengths, It's also got weaknesses and a couple of issues that need adressing. Not nerfing it's damage, splash and shot capacity. I might as well discard it right there and then and go back to the Widows which will do the job better.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[dominguez11]

It is not over-powered. Shut up and stop with the Nerf threads already. I have it at level 7 and it no better than my level 2 Saber.

[Alexraptor1]

You know, the Krysae kind of reminds me of my ME1 days, when I would get an overpowered Mk X spectre sniper rifle and fit it explosive rounds Mk X lol.
Only there was still an element of skill involved as it did not have a proximity fuse like this rifle has.

[ShdwPlayer]

Mevanna wrote...

ShdwPlayer wrote...

Okay I'm talking to two people now so let me address this first. The fact that you do feel this way in a coop game is just kinda silly (pardon the expression I know your feelings are legit). The Javelin is still a beast and in no way has your damage output changed from before. The only difference now is that a teammate who might be using the krysae is killing more things.

You are now arguing how the gun (Actually a teammate using that gun) is making you feel. Other people in other nerf threads have said it before in cases where the argument is like this - just mind yourself. Multiplayer is barely a competition as it is. Why play it like one and make yourself feel bad as if you were competing against other players - who "beat you"?

True - competitiveness shouldn't be a reason. Sorry if I made it sound like that, I guess I'm vain enough to be a little bothered to be beaten with no regard to skill  (does that smiley look sheepish or just... blank?) 

Still, the actual point I was trying to make was - snipers need more time to make their kills. And the Krysae kills enemies as fast and throws them around almost as much as a Novaguard would on bronze, making it all but impossible to set up a decent shot.

Plus, there's the whole balance thing - even if it's a non-competitive co-op game, the various classes and weapons should ideally all have equal potential so you can play whichever one you like without being disadvantaged. Of course you can't ever achieve perfect balance, but a weapon that so blatantly outperforms all others kinda sticks out.

Unfortunately this is far from the case. There are a bunch of guns and certain chars not viable (or barely viable) on gold. Following that train of thought of a completely level playing field we'd be nerfing everything to bring it more in line with those guns. I'd prefer buffing instead - thank you very much.

It's still gonna take skill to dominate with a krysae. And most of the time there isn't a shortage of enemies.

[Mevanna]

billy the squid wrote...

The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitor's so what would be the point in using it?

Same as making a choice between Widow, Black Widow and Javelin: personal preference. I don't pick guns because they have the greatest dps, I pick them if I like the way they're used.

[CaptainAchilles]

BlackoutOmega wrote...

 If I see another "NERF IT" thread, I think I am going to explode.

Please, for the sake of the people who have not tried it out. Shut. UP.

Ditto....and, do you know that only 5% of all ME3 players can even pass Gold? I would agree that the Krysae is "overpowered" in the traditional sense, but maybe now more than 5% will actually be able to pass Gold.....so lets keep it as it is and see how the percentages change in terms of passing Gold. No gun should over-ride the need for quality team play and tactics. If the gun allows for sloppy team play and John Rambo moron tactics, than, yes, nerf it.

[AlienAtSystem]

billy the squid wrote...


Nerf the damage output and it becomes situational at best. There are issues with balance as with any new weapon introduced. But, bashing it with the nerf stick is not the answer, paticularly only a couple of days after it was released. I don't know whether the splash damage benefits from the 40% tac cloak boost of the infiltrator, but that would be something to look at. Especially if the damage doesn't decline away from the point of impact. In addition I don't think it recieves the headshot damage bonus, which other rifles get. Hence, hence I'm against nerfing damage outright, until all this is known.

The whole point about balance is that every build is situational. Especially in coop-games. So why should I sit there and not complain about a rifle that is not situational, but able to best any other rifle in almost any field?

BioWare tried to introduce the Krysae as a possibility for a Sniper to have area damage, just like they introduced the Geth Plasma Shutgun to give a Shotgun Player range. The problem is simply that this falls so far outside the box that the balance goes overboard.

[ShdwPlayer]

billy the squid wrote...

AlienAtSystem wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

It's the multiple shot capacity, splash damage and the high damage combined which cause the problems if it's used on a GI, the combination of Hunter mode and Tac. Cloak speced for sniper damage ge damage boost. Stick on the extended barrel and pierce mods, with the sniper amp gear and you can wipe the floor with pretty much anything. It's the combination of the above which is causing the disagreement whether it is op or not, Not the weapon itself.

.

It is correct that an Infiltrator can mop the floor with whatever rifle he takes, but up until now it was one enemy at a time. That was what defined an Infiltrator. With the Krysae, his "imbalance" is suddenly obvious. Nevermind that mopping the floor with the whole Platoon is the job for the Biotic, not the quy with the bolt-action rifle.

And there in lies the stalemate which has to be broken. An armour piercing rifle which fire explosive rounds. Sounds great, except it doesn't pierce armour, paticularly when in comparison to both Widows and the Javelin. Yet it has splash damage which is more in line with a small grenade than and explosive round. The description doesn't bear relation to the in game function of the weapon.

If one reduces the damage overall, but neglects the lack of piercing ability against armour. Then there's little point in taking it over either of the Widows. Which can both deal with things more effectively, both the rabble and the larger armoured targets. The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitors so what would be the point in using it?

Nerf the damage output and it becomes situational at best. There are issues with balance as with any new weapon introduced. But, bashing it with the nerf stick is not the answer, paticularly only a couple of days after it was released. I don't know whether the splash damage benefits from the 40% tac cloak boost of the infiltrator, but that would be something to look at. Especially if the damage doesn't decline away from the point of impact. In addition I don't think it recieves the headshot damage bonus, which other rifles get. Hence, hence I'm against nerfing damage outright, until all this is known.

I can pinpoint a shot and take the head off a phantom or a Geth Prime with a Widow. I haven't been able to with the Krysae. The Primes drones get take the hit, I can avoid them with a Widow. The issues I see with it are the splash damage, which makes it very effective vs unarmoured targets, but it's offset by the lack of armour piercing and limited ammo capacity. The fact that I can place mods and gear on to boost the damage, doesn't make the weapon worthy of nerfing. Or me shooting through 3 guardians with a Widow or killing a Prime in 3 shots before the patch would also have called for a nerf. Krysae has it's strengths, It's also got weaknesses and a couple of issues that need adressing. Not nerfing it's damage, splash and shot capacity. I might as well discard it right there and then and go back to the Widows which will do the job better.

I have noticed the damage decline quite notciably the farther away the explosion/airburst is. I actually like this train of thought

[ArkkAngel007]

Fix the dodgy AoE (hitting the nearby wall shouldn't do more damage than a direct hit) and make it heavier. Possibly lower the reserve ammo pool as well. That should balance it just fine. Damage and effects are fine as is. There just need to be a bit more yin to the yang.

There's nothing wrong with a nerf or a good weapon. There just needs to be a bit of a balance to the weapon itself.

[Zso_Zso]

dominguez11 wrote...

It is not over-powered. Shut up and stop with the Nerf threads already. I have it at level 7 and it no better than my level 2 Saber.

Indeed!

For more detailed opinion on the issue, see:
http://social.biowar.../index/12360584

Modifié par Zso_Zso, 01 juin 2012 - 05:14 .

[ShdwPlayer]

Mevanna wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitor's so what would be the point in using it?

Same as making a choice between Widow, Black Widow and Javelin: personal preference. I don't pick guns because they have the greatest dps, I pick them if I like the way they're used.

You pick them because you like how they feel and play - exactly. Releasing another homogenous widow, black widow, valiant, javelin is pretty pointless. Which is why the krysae is so fun to use. It's so different from other snipers

[mcsquared2]

Personally, for long range sniping which I like to do, I find the N7 Valiant better! The Krysae Sniper Rifle has a bit of a delay from time you pull the trigger to the time the shell actually hits the target. Also. with the Valiant, I can shoot through the vision slot in their ballastic shields and collect lots of headshots; I tried this with the Krysae and was unable to do this! Basically, every weapon has its good and bad points.

[AlienAtSystem]

In order to build a consensus, here again my suggestions and how strongly I believe in them:
-Remove the aerial explosions. Sniper Rifles are about accuracy. Having something explode as soon as it graces a target is completely on the other end of the spectrum.
-Reduce the number of shots and spare ammunition. The rifle is powerful, so it should also have the ammunition of a powerful rifle.
-Reduce the damage a bit. If it is neccesary.

[Mevanna]

ShdwPlayer wrote...

Unfortunately this is far from the case. There are a bunch of guns and certain chars not viable (or barely viable) on gold. Following that train of thought of a completely level playing field we'd be nerfing everything to bring it more in line with those guns. I'd prefer buffing instead - thank you very much.

It's still gonna take skill to dominate with a krysae. And most of the time there isn't a shortage of enemies.

First, I forgot to say earlier - thanks. It seems very rare in a forum to have a discussion that is actually sensible and respectful and doesn't disintegrate into flaming. (this is not irony or something, I actually mean it like I said)

Also, there was this other thread that probably wandered off to a few pages back by this point - some very good suggestions about how to balance the game - mostly things that needed buffing, weapons and characters both.

That said, of course there's two ways to balance things out - pull the high performing things down or raise the rest up. It'll end up more balanced either way, and the game definitely needs a lot of buffing, but some nerfing should be in order too to actually preserve the difficulty level. If everything is buffed to the point where a GI with a Krysae won't outperform everyone anymore, the enemies will need to be knocked up quite a few notches too or gold will become a joke. So... if it's a choice between nerfing a few things or buffing a lot of them, may as well nerf them - the result will be the same.

[billy the squid]

Mevanna wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitor's so what would be the point in using it?

Same as making a choice between Widow, Black Widow and Javelin: personal preference. I don't pick guns because they have the greatest dps, I pick them if I like the way they're used.

Not really, Widow and the Javelin easily have the highest DPS and can one shot kill almost anything on silver. Javelin can see through walls. BW it has the multiple shot capacity and same peirce potential of the other rifles. Making it very effective on Gold with the issues of shield gate. You can pick based on prefrence, I prefer the Widow, but it's plain to see the differences between the three.

The Krysae, lacks the armour piercing capacity, doesn't benefit from headshot bonus (as far as I know) but does have the capacity of the BW and the damage potential as well as splash damage. Problem is that the splash radius might be to large if the damage stays the same from the point of impact.

I like that all the rifles are different. The Krysae I found doesn't perform well vs armour nor vs bosses or when you need a precision headshot. Nerf the damage outright then what's the point. Your left with a rfle that doesn't penetrate armour, does even less damage than above, which I believe it does, bar the BW  and has, like all rifles limited capacity. Why would I use it again? For instance if one uses a Vyper, that is your personal prefrence, but from what I've seen you're going to get kicked fast. there's a balance between prefrence and effetiveness.

[darkblade]

Wanting to nerf things has nothing to do with the scoreboard. Some of us actually LIKE performing equally well with multiple classes, and games with good balance allow you to do exactly that. I'm not saying you should be able to make AA snipers gold viable, but there should be at least one spec/weapon combination for each class that performs at a high level.

But there is the problem. this game emphasizes customization but all set ups arent considered viable. Which is actually more the community being douches who misunderstand the difference between viable and optimal.

[AlienAtSystem]

Mevanna wrote...


First, I forgot to say earlier - thanks. It seems very rare in a forum to have a discussion that is actually sensible and respectful and doesn't disintegrate into flaming. (this is not irony or something, I actually mean it like I said)

I second that.

That said, of course there's two ways to balance things out - pull the high performing things down or raise the rest up. It'll end up more balanced either way, and the game definitely needs a lot of buffing, but some nerfing should be in order too to actually preserve the difficulty level. If everything is buffed to the point where a GI with a Krysae won't outperform everyone anymore, the enemies will need to be knocked up quite a few notches too or gold will become a joke. So... if it's a choice between nerfing a few things or buffing a lot of them, may as well nerf them - the result will be the same.

Same here, although I have to add a variant of Okhams Razor. It may be relative to say wether something needs to be buffed or the rest to be nerfed, but it is definetly easier to fix the smaller of these two groups (and thus declaring that group the imbalanced one)

[ArkkAngel007]

CaptainAchilles wrote...

BlackoutOmega wrote...

 If I see another "NERF IT" thread, I think I am going to explode.

Please, for the sake of the people who have not tried it out. Shut. UP.

Ditto....and, do you know that only 5% of all ME3 players can even pass Gold? I would agree that the Krysae is "overpowered" in the traditional sense, but maybe now more than 5% will actually be able to pass Gold.....so lets keep it as it is and see how the percentages change in terms of passing Gold. No gun should over-ride the need for quality team play and tactics. If the gun allows for sloppy team play and John Rambo moron tactics, than, yes, nerf it.

The thing is, people are really exaggerating the effects of this weapon.  Half of the squad I played with last had decently leveled Krysaes, we had great synergy and communication, and we were still killed.  Maybe on Bronze and Silver it's the answer to everything gun, but on Gold it is nowhere close.  The only time it has a huge advantage is on FBWGG, to where I ask: Does it really matter who is killing what on that map and type?

There are multiple spawn points from enemies.  If they are hogging the kill zone, go to the next one.  They can only be one place at once.  It's also a co-op game, and just because you may not be the top of the chart doesn't mean you have to ruin it for players who probably won't be jerks with that gun.

[AlienAtSystem]

billy the squid wrote...

The Krysae, lacks the armour piercing capacity, doesn't benefit from headshot bonus (as far as I know) but does have the capacity of the BW and the damage potential as well as splash damage. Problem is that the splash radius might be to large if the damage stays the same from the point of impact.

I like that all the rifles are different. The Krysae I found doesn't perform well vs armour nor vs bosses or when you need a precision headshot. Nerf the damage outright then what's the point. Your left with a rfle that doesn't penetrate armour, does even less damage than above, which I believe it does, bar the BW  and has, like all rifles limited capacity. Why would I use it again? For instance if one uses a Vyper, that is your personal prefrence, but from what I've seen you're going to get kicked fast. there's a balance between prefrence and effetiveness.

So if you are against reducing damage, what measures do you propose?

[Mevanna]

ShdwPlayer wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The Krysae would become a rifle which doesn't do anything better than it's competitor's so what would be the point in using it?

Same as making a choice between Widow, Black Widow and Javelin: personal preference. I don't pick guns because they have the greatest dps, I pick them if I like the way they're used.

You pick them because you like how they feel and play - exactly. Releasing another homogenous widow, black widow, valiant, javelin is pretty pointless. Which is why the krysae is so fun to use. It's so different from other snipers

It would still be different enough if it didn't deal such insane amounts of damage. If it actually dealt just as much damage as the other sniper rifles, but spread over a number of enemies, that would make it a very interesting weapon IMO.
As it is, it has virtually the same damage as a black widow but multiplies that by however many people it hits. That's more than a javelin at a quarter the weight.

[ShdwPlayer]

Mevanna wrote...

ShdwPlayer wrote...

Unfortunately this is far from the case. There are a bunch of guns and certain chars not viable (or barely viable) on gold. Following that train of thought of a completely level playing field we'd be nerfing everything to bring it more in line with those guns. I'd prefer buffing instead - thank you very much.

It's still gonna take skill to dominate with a krysae. And most of the time there isn't a shortage of enemies.

First, I forgot to say earlier - thanks. It seems very rare in a forum to have a discussion that is actually sensible and respectful and doesn't disintegrate into flaming. (this is not irony or something, I actually mean it like I said)

Also, there was this other thread that probably wandered off to a few pages back by this point - some very good suggestions about how to balance the game - mostly things that needed buffing, weapons and characters both.

That said, of course there's two ways to balance things out - pull the high performing things down or raise the rest up. It'll end up more balanced either way, and the game definitely needs a lot of buffing, but some nerfing should be in order too to actually preserve the difficulty level. If everything is buffed to the point where a GI with a Krysae won't outperform everyone anymore, the enemies will need to be knocked up quite a few notches too or gold will become a joke. So... if it's a choice between nerfing a few things or buffing a lot of them, may as well nerf them - the result will be the same.

Taken to the extreme though (as some might argue in the case of the falcon) nerfed guns would become just as usable as the myriad gimped weapons we already have. "Oh I see you have a three shot semi-automatic explosive sniper rifle - let's spread out it's max damage to it's area of effect after all it does AOE damage (and AOE skills are usually balanced in doing less damage then single target abilities over a larger area)" End result it takes of two bars of health on regular troops since it could potentially take off two bars of health from *10 regular troops.

Again this is an exagerration. I'd rather wait and see how the krysae does and then wait for bioware's balance if they do decide to do so rather than speculate about what we should do to it now

Edit

My god I came up with that aburd example all by myself didn't even see your post typing this. Funny how we both came up with practically the same thing.

Again the area damage does not stay constant. I'm pretty sure of that

Modifié par ShdwPlayer, 01 juin 2012 - 05:30 .

[billy the squid]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Nerf the damage output and it becomes situational at best. There are issues with balance as with any new weapon introduced. But, bashing it with the nerf stick is not the answer, paticularly only a couple of days after it was released. I don't know whether the splash damage benefits from the 40% tac cloak boost of the infiltrator, but that would be something to look at. Especially if the damage doesn't decline away from the point of impact. In addition I don't think it recieves the headshot damage bonus, which other rifles get. Hence, hence I'm against nerfing damage outright, until all this is known.

The whole point about balance is that every build is situational. Especially in coop-games. So why should I sit there and not complain about a rifle that is not situational, but able to best any other rifle in almost any field?

BioWare tried to introduce the Krysae as a possibility for a Sniper to have area damage, just like they introduced the Geth Plasma Shutgun to give a Shotgun Player range. The problem is simply that this falls so far outside the box that the balance goes overboard.

That's why I said at best. I can use a Widow or a BW vs the mobs of enemies, a vyper will always fire faster, so potentially in that situation the Vyper is better. Problem is we know it doesn't function that way. The Widows will puch through anything infront of them, rate of fire is a great  idea for the vyper, but it doesn't work. So a Vyper might be useful in a few situations, ie: unshielded enemies, but by and large it's useless compared to the other rifles.

You nerf the Krysae, you'll have another gold standard Vyper. It already struggles to penetrate armour, doesn't get headshot bonuses, it's not a precision weapon. What it has got going for it is the damage, splash and multiple shots. The other issues are somewhat mitigated by mods. It is situational same as the Widow, or the BW. I kan kill mods with either in a pinch, but the power comes from punching through armour and high damage vs bosses. Krysae seems to be the opposite. Better vs mobs, but I can use it vs bosses If I have to. Nerf damage, splash and shot capacity, why bother. The Widow does the job vs armour a lot better, and in a pinch I can use it vs mobs where the penetraton still outclasses the nerfed Krysae. It therefore is no longer situational, it's redundant. The Widows do the job that the Krysae was intended for better that the gun itself.