311 réponses à ce sujet

[ajbry]

A couple of you seem to be misinterpreting how the exploration would be framed within the game. It is not as simple as "Here's the entire world and a million square miles of empty landscape... and you are forced to walk through it."

Rather, it should be an emphasis on fleshing out the actual terrain while making the effort consequential -- you shouldn't be able to skate from one landmass to another, or one city to another, without having first ventured there on foot. Within this concept, it allows the developers to integrate some of the cooler and more unique outdoor environments that make Thedas feel like a cohesive, real place.

[robertthebard]

I can't wait to walk from say Kirkwall to Orlais. Have they invented deep sea diving gear yet?

The reason you can go from Lothering to Denerim is because of the Imperial Highway. You are not in new and unexplored lands, but an established country. There are random scripted events, such as ambushes, that have been a staple of this kind of map travel since Baldur's Gate. Nothing like hitting the travel button, and going to get a cup of coffee only to hear "You have been waylaid by enemies, and must defend yourself"... I have to admit, the first time that happened to me, it was great.

I wouldn't mind some "you must go here before you can go there" areas, but in Origins, all the overland travel to establish travel, at least from one path or the other, has already been done. Elves have already traversed most of the Eastern end of the map getting to Ostagar, and dwarves and mages covered the Western part, and evidently, no matter which way you started from, you went through Red Cliffe, based on dialog between Duncan and Cailan.

The biggest problem is, however, actually building interesting areas, and area sizes. Unlike NWN's, where you could slap an area together in a couple of hours, it can take a couple of hours just to get the basic terrain and textures set in the DA toolset. Then you have to make and bake walk meshes, add in placeables, including little things like grass, trees, water, if any, etc etc, not to mention caves, and build them. I spent 12 hours on one medium sized area in the NWN2 toolset, and was just getting it to look the way I wanted. Then I had to populate it, and make things make sense. The same area was done in the NWN toolset in 45 minutes. Then you have to load it, and see if it's too much for some computers, and remove some of the stuff that gives it life it is, such as grass, wind, ambient lighting/shadows, ambient sounds. It can conceivably take a week to make one single area.

[Dakota Strider]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So the idea of "magically appearing" at the Brecillian Forest is okay with you, with the Brecillian Forest having a bunch of smaller areas (like the Dalish Elf camp, etc) that are explorable once you arrive at the Forest is what you're looking for?

I prefer that, to what we were given in DA2.  At least in the Brecillian Forest, we could move off the path a bit.  Unfortunately, the few areas of that forest, have been the only real outdoor areas to explore in the past 2 games.  Any other time in the outdoors has either been in a small map that was for one set encounter (DAO), or was DA2 style maps that were paths you could not leave.  BG and BG2 were Bioware games that did exploration well, where you could travel through areas manually, or you could skip over areas you have been through before, with fast travel, but with a risk of a random encounter along the way.  The player party should not be able to just fast travel over large parts of the world they have not explored yet.

NwN also was good for outdoor exploration, having maps linked to each other in each region.  It allowed you to use ranger abilities such as tracking, flora and fauna lore and allowed for a wider variety of critters to encounter in a more natural setting. 

I could accept fast travel between different regions, especially if there were a cinematic cutscene showing the means of travel.  But each region should have wilderness areas where exploration is possible, as well as a stage for the storyline.  We have had way too many city and dungeon crawling already.

[wsandista]

Dakota Strider wrote...

NwN also was good for outdoor exploration, having maps linked to each other in each region.  It allowed you to use ranger abilities such as tracking, flora and fauna lore and allowed for a wider variety of critters to encounter in a more natural setting.

I beleve NWN should be the base for exploration in DA3. Give us a set area to explore for each act, make sure that it  has caves, ruins, or similar areas that are not marked.

Or NWN:SoZ with an exaggerated world map would be nice. Not as preferable as NWN exploration, but random enemy encounters would be more numerous.

Please just stop the "travel-by-map". I wasn't fond of it in either DA game. Avoid a TES-style open world as well, I like TES games, but I don't want DA3 to try to be Skyrim.

[KaiLyn]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

ajbry wrote...

A couple of you seem to be misinterpreting how the exploration would be framed within the game. It is not as simple as "Here's the entire world and a million square miles of empty landscape... and you are forced to walk through it."

Rather, it should be an emphasis on fleshing out the actual terrain while making the effort consequential -- you shouldn't be able to skate from one landmass to another, or one city to another, without having first ventured there on foot. Within this concept, it allows the developers to integrate some of the cooler and more unique outdoor environments that make Thedas feel like a cohesive, real place.

This is what I am trying to express. Thedas is a really big world wich would take an enormous time to cover on foot. You should have been there before if you want to explore the area more. But as I said in my previous post it would be great to know about places even if you are not strong enough to venture there yet at a certain point of the game. Thedas is overall covered walking. The areas that you visit should really make the effort consequential as you say @ajbry and make Thedas a complete world. Exploring and understanding a world is something that can be combined perfectly in a game if the player is taken to environments that make sense at that point or are being  interesting areas at a given point when the game requires it.

Heh, I for one really like different environments. Just take a look at the 'environment'  thread many others and I have posted on on BSN. Change in an environment is great in a game I think.

I agree with this idea, especially the " you shouldn't be able to skate from one landmass to another, or one
city to another, without having first ventured there on foot" - I have been playing Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning (sad to watch it die) and it does the open world / exploration feel fairly well.  Another thing I really like about its concept is that if I go back to an area, there are new, sometimes different opponents to combat so an area of the world doesn't feel as if it's completely uninhabited after I've run through it once - the one, small failing I have felt with both Dragon Age games. 

[ev76]

I like getting to a destination like origins, but not a long travel ala Skyrim. With that said make the areas traveled to bigger like the legacy dlc or mota. Those where excellent. The Bracilian forest in DAO was good but not as big as the legacy area or mota area.

[Allan Schumacher]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

This is what I am trying to express. Thedas is a really big world wich would take an enormous time to cover on foot. You should have been there before if you want to explore the area more. But as I said in my previous post it would be great to know about places even if you are not strong enough to venture there yet at a certain point of the game. Thedas is overall covered walking. The areas that you visit should really make the effort consequential as you say @ajbry and make Thedas a complete world. Exploring and understanding a world is something that can be combined perfectly in a game if the player is taken to environments that make sense at that point or are being  interesting areas at a given point when the game requires it.

Heh, I for one really like different environments. Just take a look at the 'environment'  thread many others and I have posted on on BSN. Change in an environment is great in a game I think.

So, say a plot involves traveling to Val Royeaux from Kirkwall.  I'm definitely getting the impression that just "warping" from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux kind of makes some people go <_<.

So if you wanted exploration, here's a couple of thoughts and I'm curious which one is preferrable.  Assume that every exploration area could have gating encounters that require you to be of a certain power level to achieve.

• Allow the player to explore around Kirkwall and Val Royeaux (assuming the plot were to spend enough time around there).  That is, create exploration content around the main plot points.  This will result in the areas around those plot points being more fleshed out, but you may lose the sense of scale about the travel.
• The route from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux consists one large map that goes along the Imperial Highway.  Exploration off this highway exists (either the map is very large, and/or there are smaller maps for caves, or maybe smaller settlements to enter).  Basically this is a big "playground" and if you stick to the road, you'll get to Val Royeaux fairly quickly.  This would provide improved sense of scale for the distance traveled, but would result in the areas around the two cities to be minimal.  It does overlook some aspects of the region between Kirkwall and Val Royeaux.
• The route consists of two decently sized maps, one containing the Imperial Highway, one about traveling through the Planasene Forest.  The map isn't quite as grandiose, but you will get some variation on what you're exploring. Sense of scale of travel is maximal, as we travel through different types of areas to accent this, but ultimately it'd take longer to travel from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux and the areas around the two cities continues to be minimal.

[ajbry]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

• Allow the player to explore around Kirkwall and Val Royeaux (assuming the plot were to spend enough time around there).  That is, create exploration content around the main plot points.  This will result in the areas around those plot points being more fleshed out, but you may lose the sense of scale about the travel.
• The route from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux consists one large map that goes along the Imperial Highway.  Exploration off this highway exists (either the map is very large, and/or there are smaller maps for caves, or maybe smaller settlements to enter).  Basically this is a big "playground" and if you stick to the road, you'll get to Val Royeaux fairly quickly.  This would provide improved sense of scale for the distance traveled, but would result in the areas around the two cities to be minimal.  It does overlook some aspects of the region between Kirkwall and Val Royeaux.
• The route consists of two decently sized maps, one containing the Imperial Highway, one about traveling through the Planasene Forest.  The map isn't quite as grandiose, but you will get some variation on what you're exploring. Sense of scale of travel is maximal, as we travel through different types of areas to accent this, but ultimately it'd take longer to travel from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux and the areas around the two cities continues to be minimal.

My preference would vacillate depending on what is appropriate for the area. Without regard to the geographic context, #3 sounds great and you definitely grasp what we're proposing here. However, #2 may be better suited for some journeys and also permit story-centric players to move the plot forward quicker and still gain a sense of scope and accomplishment.

The lack of surrounding areas around the cities doesn't strike me as a big deal -- after all, the cities themselves should contain plenty of important things to do, and significant monuments. Furthermore, the surrounding areas are often just "enhancements" of the city and don't present any new landscapes; they're basically receptacles to complete side quests in.

[Allan Schumacher]

The lack of surrounding areas around the cities doesn't strike me as a big deal -- after all, the cities themselves should contain plenty of important things to do, and significant monuments. Furthermore, the surrounding areas are often just "enhancements" of the city and don't present any new landscapes; they're basically receptacles to complete side quests in.

That might be a bit too generous of an interpretation haha.  Exploring the city itself is still something of exploring.  With my example I was more trying to illustrate that there'd be less "exploration content" at the cities themselves (that doesn't mean NO exploration content), whether that necessarily mean specifically within the city or including the surrounding areas around it.

I was just trying to be as fair as possible with the costs.  I mean, if something has 400 hours of exploration around it, I think there's diminishing returns so taking 100 hours away from there and adding 100 hours of content in a new area probably results in more value added.

I also just thought it up on the spot so be gentle! :innocent:

[ajbry]

Understood -- seems very reasonable. In that case, compromise would be great. Keep some exploration in the cities and their outskirts, and create some exploration in the spaces you traverse between those cities. It would be unbalanced to wind up in a city that has very little going on after enduring an adventure just to get there, lol.

[Dakota Strider]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

This is what I am trying to express. Thedas is a really big world wich would take an enormous time to cover on foot. You should have been there before if you want to explore the area more. But as I said in my previous post it would be great to know about places even if you are not strong enough to venture there yet at a certain point of the game. Thedas is overall covered walking. The areas that you visit should really make the effort consequential as you say @ajbry and make Thedas a complete world. Exploring and understanding a world is something that can be combined perfectly in a game if the player is taken to environments that make sense at that point or are being  interesting areas at a given point when the game requires it.

Heh, I for one really like different environments. Just take a look at the 'environment'  thread many others and I have posted on on BSN. Change in an environment is great in a game I think.

So, say a plot involves traveling to Val Royeaux from Kirkwall.  I'm definitely getting the impression that just "warping" from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux kind of makes some people go <_<.

So if you wanted exploration, here's a couple of thoughts and I'm curious which one is preferrable.  Assume that every exploration area could have gating encounters that require you to be of a certain power level to achieve.

• Allow the player to explore around Kirkwall and Val Royeaux (assuming the plot were to spend enough time around there).  That is, create exploration content around the main plot points.  This will result in the areas around those plot points being more fleshed out, but you may lose the sense of scale about the travel.
  
• The route from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux consists one large map that goes along the Imperial Highway.  Exploration off this highway exists (either the map is very large, and/or there are smaller maps for caves, or maybe smaller settlements to enter).  Basically this is a big "playground" and if you stick to the road, you'll get to Val Royeaux fairly quickly.  This would provide improved sense of scale for the distance traveled, but would result in the areas around the two cities to be minimal.  It does overlook some aspects of the region between Kirkwall and Val Royeaux.
  
• The route consists of two decently sized maps, one containing the Imperial Highway, one about traveling through the Planasene Forest.  The map isn't quite as grandiose, but you will get some variation on what you're exploring. Sense of scale of travel is maximal, as we travel through different types of areas to accent this, but ultimately it'd take longer to travel from Kirkwall to Val Royeaux and the areas around the two cities continues to be minimal.

I think you are on the right track.  I think the lack of scale you are worried about can be handled by having cutscenes showing a DAO style route map, during loading screens to show your progress across the map.  Also, very simple things like signs saying "500 miles to Denerim" or if you do not wish to use miles, because of the metric majority of the world "15 days walk to Van Royeaux"  Having the local population talk about time and distance between places in casual conversation also helps to build the scale of the world for a player.

[ev76]

Allan I like the first bullet point. The exploration in da2 main city( kirwall) before loading another part of the city (lowtown) . I think you need to make the cities and areas around it bigger, more explorable and extend the story around it. Adding a medium sized intro into the city if possible where their is combat and some exploration similar to legacy would be nice.
If areas in and around the cities are not that big and explorable then I would welcome the third bullet point.

[TrooperTethras]

ajbry wrote...

Understood -- seems very reasonable. In that case, compromise would be great. Keep some exploration in the cities and their outskirts, and create some exploration in the spaces you traverse between those cities. It would be unbalanced to wind up in a city that has very little going on after enduring an adventure just to get there, lol.

Yeah, I believe this compromise is the best we could possibly hope for.
But to be honest I wouldn't mind Allan's first response of "magically appearing" at the Brecillian Forest but then having the smaller areas to explore around it.

[wsandista]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Allow the player to explore around Kirkwall and Val Royeaux (assuming the plot were to spend enough time around there).  That is, create exploration content around the main plot points.  This will result in the areas around those plot points being more fleshed out, but you may lose the sense of scale about the travel.

If I am interpreting this properly, it is like NWN where there is a set area the PC may explore around a city or town. I personally would LOVE this idea. It avoids looking like a TES game and removes travel-by-map, which are two things I do not want to see in the next DA.

[Allan Schumacher]

wsandista wrote...

If I am interpreting this properly, it is like NWN where there is a set area the PC may explore around a city or town. I personally would LOVE this idea. It avoids looking like a TES game and removes travel-by-map, which are two things I do not want to see in the next DA.

It is the most similar to NWN, but it'd probably still be "travel by map" unless the story were to prevent the player from returning to Kirkwall.


Though this does kind of surprise me though.  Why is it okay to do something like NWN, which effectively warped the player to another point just without needing the player to go to a world map?

[Dakota Strider]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

wsandista wrote...

If I am interpreting this properly, it is like NWN where there is a set area the PC may explore around a city or town. I personally would LOVE this idea. It avoids looking like a TES game and removes travel-by-map, which are two things I do not want to see in the next DA.

It is the most similar to NWN, but it'd probably still be "travel by map" unless the story were to prevent the player from returning to Kirkwall.


Though this does kind of surprise me though.  Why is it okay to do something like NWN, which effectively warped the player to another point just without needing the player to go to a world map?

I am not sure all of us are asking for travel by foot across the entire map.  Just more exploration of the areas that are in the key areas where we stop along the way.  A merging of NwN regional style, with the DAO travel map would be ideal.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 02 juin 2012 - 02:52 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I figured the example used would have been BG1 haha. You have to explore along the way to get there, and there are free to zip over it if you want after.

[KaiLyn]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I figured the example used would have been BG1 haha. You have to explore along the way to get there, and there are free to zip over it if you want after.

That's the scenario I would prefer but, as I have yet to tackle BG1 so have only NWN - 1 and 2 - or Dragon Age as reference points from BioWare

[Dakota Strider]

BG1 was great. But because it just took a few pixels to depict the characters, it allowed them to take up just a tiny amount of the screen, making the maps seem that much larger. However, NwN scale of character size, is much closer to what is used in DA. It almost seems like a paradox, that the better the characters can be depicted, the less room on the map they have to roam in.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 02 juin 2012 - 03:37 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Haha. It's been so long since I played either of the games that it's hard for me to recall specifically.

[Dakota Strider]

I am getting a refresher course, as I just recently purchased D&D Anthology Master's Collection. I was a bit busy when some of those games first came out, and only caught a few of them. Most of the titles were developed by Bioware, so I hope they are still getting some royalties from their re-release.