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A look at the Balance argument, from one who values game balance.


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#251
InfamousResult

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Mal3fact0r wrote...

Creating private lobbies with like-minded players =/= kicking people from public lobbies where they aren't (and shouldn't be) subjected to people's arbitrary rules.


So basically, "unless you already know players who won't use the Krysae, you're S.O.L"?

Nah, sorry. If your response is going to be "don't play with Krysae players", obviously they are going to get kicked from lobbies. We're not all going to give up our Random privelages just for one weapon. Screw that noise.

It's your arbitrary rule that lead us there. "If you don't like it, don't play with them, you're not allowed to complain."

Modifié par InfamousResult, 02 juin 2012 - 12:22 .


#252
Quething

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A couple people have already touched on this, but I think a lot of what you're looking at is a basic struggle between the two halves of RPG game design.

The first important aspect of an RPG (from a gameplay standpoint, I'm not getting into the writing aspect) is choice. Do you want to play a wizard? A warrior? A rogue? A sturdy melee tank, or a ranged glass cannon?

It's essential to an RPG that this kind of choice be available. And in order for this kind of choice to be real, all of the different options need to be equally viable. That sturdy warrior and that glass cannon mage need to be able to contribute equally to the action; a player should be able to play either, and feel victory was just as easy or just as hard either way. Each should feel different, but in the end, each should be able to achieve the same. It should be like two roads, each exactly one mile long, each starting in Littleville and ending in Bigville, but one goes past the ocean and one goes through the forest. If you like trees, take one, if you like water, take the other; you have the choice, and neither is any better or any worse in any other way.

The other important aspect of an RPG is progression. It's been a staple of the genre since that very first D&D manual: a character starts out with crappy gear, useless skills, and pitiful enemies, and accumulates power as gameplay progresses. Playing is not just its own reward, it's a way to achieve new rewards. The sword you carry at level 1 should be a useless pokey stick compared to the awesome laser katana of +15 smiting you pick off a dead boss at level 83, that's part of the fun.

Mass Effect 1 went the traditional route with these two aspects. Diversity - choice - was maintained through character class, skill choice within character class, and which class of weapon you chose. In the case of weapons (the biggest issue with ME3 balance), pistols, snipers, shotguns and assault rifles were all meant to have their various advantages and disadvantages that, in the end, made all of them equally viable versus the game as a whole. But within each grouping there was a single weapon that was clearly superior to all others, which you only achieved by progressing far into the game.

In ME2, they tried to change the system. They gave choice a greater degree of granularity by trying to make not only each weapon class equally useful and balanced against the others, but each weapon within each class equally viable with the others within those criteria. You could have strong vs armor (pistols), strong vs shields (SMGs), or medium against both (assault rifles); once you chose armor as a priority, you could have spike damage that was safer but required better aim (Carnifex), or rapidfire that was more dangerous but more forgiving of ammo waste (Predator). Both were equally good choices, and progression was no longer  a question of getting a better gun than you had before, but rather finding a generic upgrade that made the gun you have more powerful.

In ME3, they're trying to have it both ways. We have this unlock system, common/uncommon/rare/N7, that seems to say, "some weapons are simply Better Than Others, and within a class, you should be able to become more powerful as you achieve more levels."

But at the same time, we have this completely egalitarian multiplayer that requires every player to be able to contribute equally to the team -- there's no restriction barring someone with only the Avenger IV unlocked from participating in multiplayer alongside someone with a Revenant X - and this complicated system of weight and DPS and reload speed that's clearly designed to allow weapons to excel at some things and be weak at others in a way that provides equal choice.

Of course no one can agree on whether balance should be achieved, or if so, how - the system itself is designed in a way that flatly forbids either group from being right.

Modifié par Quething, 02 juin 2012 - 12:52 .


#253
Mal3fact0r

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InfamousResult wrote...

Mal3fact0r wrote...

Creating private lobbies with like-minded players =/= kicking people from public lobbies where they aren't (and shouldn't be) subjected to people's arbitrary rules.


So basically, "unless you already know players who won't use the Krysae, you're S.O.L"?

Nah, sorry. If your response is going to be "don't play with Krysae players", obviously they are going to get kicked from lobbies. We're not all going to give up our Random privelages just for one weapon. Screw that noise.

It's your arbitrary rule that lead us there. "If you don't like it, don't play with them, you're not allowed to complain."


Nice circular "logic" there. ;)

#254
InfamousResult

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Mal3fact0r wrote...

Nice circular "logic" there. ;)


Nice avoiding a response there. ;)

#255
Mal3fact0r

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InfamousResult wrote...

Mal3fact0r wrote...

Nice circular "logic" there. ;)


Nice avoiding a response there. ;)


How was I avoiding a response? What is so hard for you to understand that while you can choose how you want to play, you don't get to dictate how others play, especially in a public lobby. Creating your own lobbies is a solution, you can choose to play with others that share your views without negatively impacting others who are simply using weapons or classes that are part of the game as designed by BioWare.

#256
InfamousResult

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Mal3fact0r wrote...

How was I avoiding a response? What is so hard for you to understand that while you can choose how you want to play, you don't get to dictate how others play, especially in a public lobby. Creating your own lobbies is a solution, you can choose to play with others that share your views without negatively impacting others who are simply using weapons or classes that are part of the game as designed by BioWare.


I'm not negatively impacting them.

I'm just not letting them stay in my game.

I'm not going to sacrifice my ability to host a Random public game because of one weapon. You're saying that if I don't like it, I shouldn't play with it, or people who choose to play with it. That's fine. But then, you shouldn't react negatively when I kick them from my rooms for using the gun. Don't act like I'm being ridiculous when it was your own logic that brought it on.

#257
GGW KillerTiger

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 Instead of nerfing the players when the game is broken to all hell against over healthed and over damaging enemies why not just buff us slightly till a happy balance is met ..... Nerf isn't needed buffs are ....

#258
InfamousResult

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GGW KillerTiger wrote...

Nerf isn't needed buffs are ....


Coming from the guy who suggested the Krysae actually needed a Buff.

#259
ThirdChild ZKI

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Quarian Engineer sniper/scout here; happy to help anyone on Silver/Gold. Have gun, will travel ;)

#260
capn233

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InfamousResult wrote...

I'm not negatively impacting them.

I'm just not letting them stay in my game.

I'm not going to sacrifice my ability to host a Random public game because of one weapon. You're saying that if I don't like it, I shouldn't play with it, or people who choose to play with it. That's fine. But then, you shouldn't react negatively when I kick them from my rooms for using the gun. Don't act like I'm being ridiculous when it was your own logic that brought it on.

Yep.  If 3 people in a public lobby vote to kick someone, then so be it.

I just don't get all the entitlement.  Entitled to excel in gold, entitled to play in any public lobby.  You just don't have a leg to stand on if you think the game doesn't need better balancing and people should just choose to avoid those things, then **** when someone does indeed avoid them.

Getting back to something I said before dinner, that has been requoted a couple times, making the game fun for casual gamers and people that want a more balanced and challenging game is not mutually exclusive.  Some act as if it is impossible.  Of course I posted that comment because I understand that Bioware's motivation in all this is purely economic, and if they are fine with a mediocre game then they can simply sprinkle more win-sauce on every new item they release.

The Krysae would still be more than adequate with some balancing.  Hell people are making claims about RPG mechanics, but this is a "rare" gun that is better than many ultra rares.  Then there is the weight mechanic... should the weight mechanic mean that in general heavier guns are better lighter ones?  Of course, but that isn't the case in practice.

I also like the assumption that the pro nerf crowd wants to hypocritically nerf all the fun out of the game for casual players while sticking with their OP classes like GI.  We really want more parity between the classes, which may indeed mean a few nerfs for infiltrators, but should certainly mean buffs for a whole lot of other classes, if not in general, then with the specific racial versions of many classes.

I'm curious, if the game paid out the same amount of credits and XP for each difficulty level, would the pro win button camp be more willing to budge on rebalancing?

Modifié par capn233, 02 juin 2012 - 01:45 .


#261
Xaijin

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Taritu wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Contrary to popular belief (as shown rather handily in this very thread) Nerfing != Balance, or even a form of balance. It's one tool amongst many.

The fact that you're using the word "wrong" in first place is directly germane to the actual point I'm making; you and others of specific intent (in this thread) are already polarized and predisposed towards both a specific model and in this particular case a specific method. A method that has already been shown to have negative effects on the player base.  (Kishok, Falcon) You've already set your stance that rebalancing and upgrading other weapons to have parity is a negative action, and therefore only one satisfactory result remains, ie making say, the Reegar and Krysae suck while essentially completely ignoring the positive impacts these weapons may or may not have had on the player base as a whole.

Yeah, that's not what he said.
What he has said is that downward adjustments (or nerfing as people like to call it) are as much part of this process as buffing and that it's a silly thing to expect every adjustment to be upward only. 

If three snack machines in a batch of hundred grant two snacks by a fault, would you fix it by making all of them grant two or would let the three machines grant one. 
If as a result these machines sometimes grant nothing than they should be fixed, but it's still less work and easier than changing all to do two and than asking for double the money to balance all things out.

The Kishock wasn't actually nerfed, btw. It was fixed. It's a shame, but it's not a nerf.
Also it's funny how everyone always notes the few that went to far (Falcon, Sabotage) while seemingly everything else somehow is of no matter to their track record. 

And finally you exagerate by making any downward balance change to a weapon as making them completely suck. Hint not every nerf was unaccompanied by a buff and not every nerf turned thier gun into a peashooter. 


Nope. I said nerfing was a tool out of many based on the presented example of "nerfing the Krysae is logistically correct". 

Whether it's correct or not is to be determined by BW and then evaluated by the voting-with-time-and-dollars public.

Moreover whilst your model sounds correct on paper, a caveat: some years ago, AMD (then ATI) had a situation much like you presented: a specific production line of their mid-range card could be safely bios flashed to perform to within near spec to their top range card. Predictably, the self appointed experts pointed out the terrible folly of such a colossal mistake. Economic ruin for ATI, their top of the line cards will lament in dust on shelves, woe to them blah blah blah. When ATI returned their inventory turnover analysis, not only had they sold out on mid-range cards, they had also sold out on their high end cards. Next time they did it on purpose, with the same results.

Say three super vocal self appointed experts leave BSN and stop playing MEMP because the krysae offends their delicate and finely honed sensibilities. Gloom and doom, the forums lament the "millions" of players leaving because the terrible "broken guns", and everywhere there is gnashing of teeth and placing of back of hands to foreheads...

Meanwhile 100 or so casual players saw a youtube video or a friend play with the "crazy ass exploding sniper rifle" and go out and buy me3, and then money on BPs so they can get the crazy ass exploding sniper rifle and use it. food for thought.

The rest of the continual balance changes aren't germane to my point and your attempting to bring them up as a defense really isn't remotely topical.


Not a viable example.  Someone else having a good video card does not effect my enjoyment of my computer. 

I do not believe Bioware should make balance decisions based on a few people saying they'll leave, even if I'm one of those people.  They should make balance decisions based on what's best for the game.  What they think that is, we don't know. 

However, given that they have made balance changes, they probably do have at least some concern with balance.


Might wanna read the original point before commenting on half of it. It's aperfectly viable counter-example of a supposed "oversight" or defect leading to increased awareness and net gain on the behalf of the developers, which was argued not to be the case previously.

Relic did the same thing with the Tau Shas'O in Dow2.

#262
Mal3fact0r

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capn233 wrote...

I'm curious, if the game paid out the same amount of credits and XP for each difficulty level, would the pro win button camp be more willing to budge on rebalancing?


For those who claim they are interested in balance for the sake of challenge, this is exactly what should be argued and fought for.

It's been said before, and it bears repeating, people will almost always follow the path of least resistance to obtain a goal, it's why there are so many FBW/G/G farming lobbies, it's the fastest, easiest way to obtain credits to buy packs, and it's why even if BioWare nerfed it, they would simply find another map. If they made the credits and (of lesser importance) xp the same across all modes then people would be more inclined to play within their comfort zone, those interested in fast credits will do so however they please (probably bronze lol) while those who want a challenge for challenge's sake will play gold.

Also, just to comment on your "win button" statement. There is no gun, class or power in the game currently that will make a bad player good. Nothing, aside from Cobras (and they are limited for obvious reasons) can do that.

And no, I don't use the Krysae, tried it out a few matches and find it not to my liking, I'll stick with my Claymore thanks. :)


Edit: Btw, everyone is entitled to play in any public lobby, since their game purchase entitles them to that. If 3 people want to kick someone because they are using a certain weapon, or class, then yeah, so be it, people are entitled to act like jerks if they so choose.

Modifié par Mal3fact0r, 02 juin 2012 - 02:17 .


#263
We Tigers

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Some interesting posts here.  Some stuff I would like to comment on:

Apl_J wrote...
But let's apply that to Tactical Cloak. No if, ands, or buts about it, we all agree that the damage evolutions FAR outweigh the alternatives. 40% duration is inconsequential; if you need to do something while cloaked, the rank 3 duration bonus is plenty of time to do a activate objective, revive someone, or get to a risky ammo crate. Both rank 5 evolutions are worthless on a sniper build, but on a GI, the melee bonus far exceeds the recharge bonus, since Infiltrators don't care about weight in order to do what they have to do. The final rank 6 is a no brainer. On a non sniper, you don't even need this rank at all, saving you 6 points. On a sniper, you take sniper damage, thanks to the power, aim, shoot you can do while still keeping Cloak. The bonus power evolution is useless to all but the most niche builds (which, if I may, arent as effective). 

Everyone else has to weigh options in their builds except the Infiltrators. Their Tactical Cloak has a no questions optimal build in every situation you need it in, from support to attack.


So, I find a lot questionable in this post.  Let's look at an Asari Adept or Human Sentinel.  You have the same no-brainer effects--both 50% biotic explosions upgrades are obviously superior to the other options.  Similarly, there's no reason not to take Expose over damage on Warp.  You also completely discount the Bonus Power evolution on Tactical Cloak.  I think you're discounting far too many build options simpy on this notion of not as effective.

Bonus power is usually unnecessary if you're trying to put as much damage downstream, fire your powers while sighted in, etc.  However, if you move around more, or need a little time to line up a shot post energy drain, it's totally valid.  It's also good on, say, a Human Infiltrator, who needs Cryo's freeze to take effect to get the debuff.  I agree that the rank 4 damage upgrade is a no-brainer, but disagree strongly on 6.  People have different playstyles.  In your quest for perfect balance, please don't forget that.  

Apl_J wrote...
That's not my stance at all. I want to establish a baseline or zone. Bronze should be easy. Silver should be moderate, and gold should be tough. That includes nerfing and buffing. I think i said this in the OP, but if everything gets constantly buffed, difficulty loses meaning, and challenge is important in a game. I dont think I had to say this, but if everything gets nerfed, then Gold will become too difficult. 

...

Platinum is eh. It isn't needed. Instead of calcualting all the enemies again, they could just make Gold difficult. 

Gold IS tough and difficult.  I know we have some superstars here, but guess what?  Gold is hard for most of us out there.  You need only look at Bioware's stats on clears to get some backup on that.   In my case, I play about 1 gold match per 3 silvers, and I don't have friends who are gold-caliber.  I generally play with randoms, and I clear 1/3 to 1/2 of the gold matches I play.  So, while I agree that there can be some adjustments in the game, I firmly believe that the idea of "making Gold difficult" is the wrong way to look at this, because there are few objective measures that suggest gold is anything but very difficult.

Balance the weapons and abilities against each other, if you want to make changes.  Bioware should consider main roles for classes, as suggested here, and decide if they need some alterations in their passives or core abilities to skew more towards those roles.  Do not weaken weapons and classes primarily because you think Gold isn't difficult.  It is.  

Finally, remember: ease of use of a weapon within a certain playstyle does not necessarily equal overpowered.  You drew a comparison between the GPS and Graal, citing differences between the two and how they're both relatively balanced because of strengths and weaknesses.  I thought that was accurate.  To use one of the hottest NERFNERFNERF topics of late, Reegar vs. Claymore or Reegar vs. Wraith isn't that different a comparison.  On one hand you have guns that allow for considerably safer/versatile engagement with the enemies and do a lot of damage (or in the case of the Wraith, have low cooldowns), vs. one that is basically Get Close, Point, and Melt.  Different approaches to a similar result.  I think I mostly want people to avoid a tone or mentality that suggests absolutely crushing a unique weapon into dust.  Could the Reegar stand to no longer leverage the Shredder mod and lose 10% of its damage?  I guess that'd be okay.  But, the way people bemoan that gun and the Krysae, it feels like they're asking them to be Falcon'd or Kishok'd, which is why those examples keep coming up.  

The line between "this gun is great!" and "this gun is useless!" is not that thick.  In a co-op game, I will always prefer the former.

Modifié par We Tigers, 02 juin 2012 - 03:18 .


#264
Poison_Berrie

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Xaijin wrote...

Nope. I said nerfing was a tool out of many based on the presented example of "nerfing the Krysae is logistically correct". 

Whether it's correct or not is to be determined by BW and then evaluated by the voting-with-time-and-dollars public.

You don't really think that all these threads are the prime motivator for nerfs and buffs, right?
I mean sometimes there will be correlation between suggestions and what the patch contains, but there are too much suggestion on this forum to think they use these to base their balance changes on.

The rest of the continual balance changes aren't germane to my point and your attempting to bring them up as a defense really isn't remotely topical.

They are. You pointed out that nerfing leads to Falcons and Sabotage (both still usefull, btw) and I pointed out that looking at the patch note not all nerfs have lead to such things and for some nerf a weapon or skill got a buff back.
It's false to look at those examples (Falcon) and say see nerf things can't work, while ignoring that there have been changes that worked.

#265
astheoceansblue

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Why us everyone citing the Falcon reduction as a marker for fear of nerfing?

Falcon is a good gun.

#266
Firebald

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Fluffeh Kitteh wrote...

WYLDMAXX wrote...
Instead of Nerfing weapons why not assign certain weapons to the level of play so Krysae or Black Widow users can't walk into a Bronze match and own the game.


Because that's a huge restriction. It's like putting a level cap on who can play bronze or silver. It'd do more harm than good by turning off players.


I'm kind of curious as to what would turn players off more. Saying "You are a big boy now and you can't sit at the childrens table anymore." or " Some other kid doesn't like your toys, so we are going to break them."

#267
Poison_Berrie

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astheoceansblue wrote...

Why us everyone citing the Falcon reduction as a marker for fear of nerfing?

Falcon is a good gun.

Because a lot of people remember the old one more fondly and a lot of people see it as everything that's wrong with nerfing. 

It's certainly has got a new purpose and far from useless, though.

#268
GodlessPaladin

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Bump, because people keep asking questions answered throughout this thread.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 15 juin 2012 - 05:06 .


#269
Grunt_Platform

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Apl_J wrote...
How about instead, we establish a baseline: Balance weapons so that every gun makes Bronze easy, Silver moderate, and Gold difficult? You know, how its supposed to be.


Bumped agin, and quoted for truth.

This is all the so-called "Elitists" and "Nerfers" want.


That said, perhaps something should be done about the game's reward system. In theory, players should be playing whatever difficulty level they find the most fun. But if Gold is the only difficulty that offers good enough credits for the time to make acquiring Ultra Rares even possible, then Bronze players end up punished for staying on the difficulty level appropriate to their skills.