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A look at the Balance argument, from one who values game balance.


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#101
GodlessPaladin

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Apl_J wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
As another poster said, difficulty levels do not exist so that you can decide how many credits you feel like earning in a match, they exist so that you can choose how difficult you want the game to be.


This is sort of a tangent but I really love this, as it leads into another problem I have with the addictive nature of the game. People are playing games just to use the store, not to play the game. The fact that this makes everyone even more obessed with efficiency sort of leads back into this argument, though!


Exactly.  There is actually a faction of people who are concerned with their gambling addiction, *not* actually creating a game that's fun outside of fulfilling the skinner box reward schedule.

#102
Apl_Juice

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:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?

As it is now, there are definitive "best" builds. With balance, there isn't. As a result, people expirement more and have fun. They use other classes and find what works. I don't understand how you can say that you don't want people to use more varied skills. If there was a metric given for "Most used class on Gold", it would undoubtedly be the Infiltrator.

Modifié par Apl_J, 01 juin 2012 - 08:06 .


#103
Mevanna

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Exactly.  There is actually a faction of people who are concerned with their gambling addiction, *not* actually creating a game that's fun outside of fulfilling the skinner box reward schedule.


Gambling addiction is probably not the right word for it, the pack system rather seems to address the human hoarding nature and our love for shiny things.

#104
GodlessPaladin

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Mevanna wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Exactly.  There is actually a faction of people who are concerned with their gambling addiction, *not* actually creating a game that's fun outside of fulfilling the skinner box reward schedule.


Gambling addiction is probably not the right word for it, the pack system rather seems to address the human hoarding nature and our love for shiny things.


The pack system is something called a skinner box reward schedule, a thing which was designed to condition and exploit compulsive behavior.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 01 juin 2012 - 08:09 .


#105
january42

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Apl_J wrote...

:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?


Can you make new thread for the pack thing? It may feed into peoples wishes for balance to a degree, but I think it's a tangent.

Almost everyone feels the current system is stupid(aside maybe from those just starting), but it really doesn't have anything to do with balance, other than rarity.

#106
Apl_Juice

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january42 wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?


Can you make new thread for the pack thing? It may feed into peoples wishes for balance to a degree, but I think it's a tangent.

Almost everyone feels the current system is stupid(aside maybe from those just starting), but it really doesn't have anything to do with balance, other than rarity.


I don't know if you remember, but I made these exact comments in someone's thread about people being obessive and compulsive and I was labeled a troll about 12 times. Meanwhile, I was arguing using psychology, and everyone else was just saying "troll troll troll troll".

If I remembered the thread title, I'd link it.

Modifié par Apl_J, 01 juin 2012 - 08:10 .


#107
neteng101

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

There is absolutely nothing about balance that causes sameness in any respect other than *incentive to use a choice.*  And if the incentive to use choices are all on a comparable footing, differences become more meaningful and variety is encouraged and rewarded rather than reduced.


No I got what you said the first time.  Its sameness to me.

Gun 1 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for X.

Gun 2 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for Y.

Rock, paper, scissors right there.  End of day you're asking the playing field to be level/equal...  both guns are equally viable, just have to be used/played differently.  That's sameness because they're both equally viable!

At the end of the day, you're saying the DPS should be equal, even if everything else is different.

No, this is just wrong, and I don't think it is the designer's intent to have all the weapons be equal.  It makes the store irrelevant.  Its also part of the business model having the store be viable to Bioware.  And we want a viable store, because as long as some people are spending something on transactions, it will keep then interested in delivering updates and new packs.

#108
GodlessPaladin

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neteng101 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Your argument creates a false dilemma.  The idea you're promoting results from a misunderstanding of what balance does.  The opposite is actually true:  Differences exist independently of balance.  Balance causes differences to stand out and become more meaningful. 

Balance creates meaningful choices and promotes a variety of playstyles and encourages the use of all weapons, since they would each present their own unique tradeoffs and each maintain a useful role.  By contrast, imbalance means that you never see anyone using Eagles or Incisors. 

There is absolutely no reason that a gun cannot maintain a unique niche while still being comparably effective to other weapons.  By contrast, if weapons are unbalanced, guns often lose their niche due to being completely overshadowed by other options, removing meaningful choice.

There is absolutely nothing about balance that causes sameness in any respect other than *incentive to use a choice.*  And if the incentive to use choices are all on a comparable footing, differences become more meaningful and variety is encouraged and rewarded rather than reduced.


No I got what you said the first time.  Its sameness to me.

Gun 1 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for X.

Gun 2 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for Y.

Rock, paper, scissors right there.  End of day you're asking the playing field to be level/equal...  both guns are equally viable, just have to be used/played differently.  That's sameness because they're both equally viable!

At the end of the day, you're saying the DPS should be equal, even if everything else is different.

No, this is just wrong, and I don't think it is the designer's intent to have all the weapons be equal.  It makes the store irrelevant.  Its also part of the business model having the store be viable to Bioware.  And we want a viable store, because as long as some people are spending something on transactions, it will keep then interested in delivering updates and new packs.


And what's not "sameness" to you?  Gun 1 is better at everything and has no weakness compared to gun 2, use it for everything?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 01 juin 2012 - 08:16 .


#109
Mevanna

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Apl_J wrote...

:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?


Correction: Probably most people who want changes to various aspects of the game want those to stroke their egos - either because they like feeling overpowered or because they like being superior gamers. They don't actually want balance.
It seems many people just want to play whatever with brilliant results so they can feel good about it.

I for one do want balance for its own sake because it is what makes a game interesting to play. I want to be able to play all classes and weapons with equally good results.

As it is, at the moment I see a huge number playing the infiltrator with the Krysae because it's powerful. And the power level is just the wrong thing to measure a class' worth in. When all builds are at roughly equal power levels and you can choose between them based on what's fun and not what's most effective, the game will be perfect.
Casual players will be able to play whatever they like without worrying about being at a disadvantage, and more invested gamers will still be able to get on top of the score board through skill alone. That is what balance is about. How come nobody sees that? 

#110
greghorvath

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To take a specific topic: lets take infiltrator nerf requests.

Everyone says the class is too powerful (btw, I do not agree). Just stop for a second right there and then answer to yourself the following question: So?
Does this bother you because you think too many people will be using it? Let us not go into the question why this would bother you personally, expecially because this is a hypothetical scenario as in the case of MP you see all sorts of classes on gold and not only infiltrators. So those saying everyone is playing infiltrator because its op are simply wrong in both statements made in that sentence. 
Does it bother you because you would not like to be outscored? This is an ego problem, which is actually more harmful in a coop game than an infiltrator topping the scoreboard.

Why should infiltrators be damage dealers you ask? You have a character that is originally depicted with the signature sniper rifle. Just google sniper and check out what they do. They hide and deal damage. From afar. Thats how it works. Their ability to hide is incidentally very useful for certain in game tasks, but there is nothing wrong with this if the player is good enough to back up the team. however, the maturity of the player and game balance have nothing  whatsoever to do with each other

Having read dozens of, I am sorry if this sounds harsh but, stupid, childish and ignorant threads on the subject of "balancing", I still only can say, even in a distinguished and intelligent thread like this that the problem is not "balance", but the inability or lack of willingness of the players to adopt, adapt and improve to the game and to each other:
  • find a new lobby
  • change build
  • change loadout
  • make friends
  • if something is too difficult, practice on lower difficulties
  • if you want to play with randoms/on random maps/agains random enemies or a combination of these, you are willingly taking the risk that your choices may not be the best suited for the situation you will be put in. That is why you get the XP bonus. Not because you choose to pick a class/weapon for a specific situation.
The only thing currently in dire need of modification is the Krysae "sniper rifle" which is not a sniper rifle but a mini-cobra missile launcher and for the sole reason that it is so much better than any other weapon. The easiest and probably best way to make it "balanced" is to change its category as it has been suggested in another thread.

#111
Apl_Juice

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neteng101 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

There is absolutely nothing about balance that causes sameness in any respect other than *incentive to use a choice.*  And if the incentive to use choices are all on a comparable footing, differences become more meaningful and variety is encouraged and rewarded rather than reduced.


No I got what you said the first time.  Its sameness to me.

Gun 1 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for X.

Gun 2 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for Y.

Rock, paper, scissors right there.  End of day you're asking the playing field to be level/equal...  both guns are equally viable, just have to be used/played differently.  That's sameness because they're both equally viable!

At the end of the day, you're saying the DPS should be equal, even if everything else is different.

No, this is just wrong, and I don't think it is the designer's intent to have all the weapons be equal.  It makes the store irrelevant.  Its also part of the business model having the store be viable to Bioware.  And we want a viable store, because as long as some people are spending something on transactions, it will keep then interested in delivering updates and new packs.


You're condensing it to its most basic. That isn't the case here.

DPS is only one metric with which a weapon can be measured. There's also Accuracy, Stability, Ammo Count/Clip Size, Weight, Rarity, etc. Those all have to be measured against eachother to determine a weapon's value, and that's only the weapon. That says nothing of the class, Species' special traits, Gear, Equipment, or Enemy type, which are all entire different fields. 

#112
twxabfn

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As far as it applies to video games, balance means that everything has strengths and weaknesses in roughly equal proportions. That leaves it up to the individual gamer which strengths they want to bring to the fight, and which weaknesses they either can a) deal with themselves or B) leave up to their teammates.

I keep trying to expand on this point, but every time I do I just end up saying exactly what GodlessPaladin said. So count me in as another that finds appeal in having to make meaningful decisions.

#113
capn233

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Keep fighting the good fight Apl_J.

The main issue is that the balance needs a rethink, not just tinkering with damage, weight and ammo capacity. They were on the right track when they came up with the idea of the weight mechanic, but it needs to actually mean something.

As such what they should have strived to do was make weapon effectiveness actually scale with weight with commons being a little worse than the "average line" and ultra rares a little better. Of course "effectivness" is not exactly scientific, but you can't simply use DPS, single shot damage, or clip burst damage as their should be weapons that do indeed go about their business differently. I realize that people think DPS is not as valuable, but it could be...  And of course you have to factor accuracy and total clip capacity.

And that leads into the next thing. Part of the problems with the weapon balance are the classes themselves. You touched on this with the infiltrator vs the soldier, although there are of course other examples. Basically there needs to be a bigger difference in weight capacity among the classes with adepts at the bottom and soldiers at the top. While Soldier's do indeed do decent DPS now (some doing ok burst as well) most aren't really the tanks that you would expect them to be. Infiltrator's should need to be relying more on finesse and tactical judgement for higher survivability, and to some extent they do, but really the differences in the amount of fire that can be taken is pretty small, even on gold, which means the whole invisible mechanic grants a huge benefit.

Another thing that would have been worth consideration is more mobility penalty for using a heavier weapon load (relative to your weight capacity) as well as more severe moving accuracy penalties. This would actually give you a reason to potentially go lighter on mobile classes.

One of the things that they needlessly dropped from the combat mechanics, which would have made finding roles for the weapon classes easier, was the multipliers to defense types. I know some people claim that this is too simple a "rock paper scissors" gimmick, but at least it meant that there was a reason for the classes to exist. SMG's and AR's are the perfect example of classes with little reason for existence in the current state of play. Clearly I don't mean that every weapon in the class is bad, just that most of them are, and even the ones that are good don't give you any tangible benefit over something out of a "win" class. The Hornet, for instance, is pretty capable on Gold, but there isn't much reason to use it other than novelty compared to something like the Carnifex, or perhaps even the Phalanx. If they were great at shield and barrier stripping maybe they could find a role, despite their weaker performance against armor.

The AR's are pretty mediocre overall, but some are worth using. Weirdly many are lighter than pistols... but make up for that by being less useful. That should be flipped around. And I do not say that lightly.

Only one quote I saw I care to address directly.

The difficulty level doesn't compensate that some people lack certain skills. A bad sniper that can't aim well is better off with a weapon like the Krysae, regardless if they're playing on Bronze or Gold. The weapon/crutch helps these folks. To deny them that, is just a selfish act. We can choose not to use this weapon if we don't like it.

Perhaps the most ridiculous reasoning I have seen regarding balance. A sniper that can't aim needs to learn how to aim. There should not be "crutch" weapons in the game, or if there are they should not be as effective as a weapon that takes some modicum of skill to use.

Modifié par capn233, 01 juin 2012 - 08:20 .


#114
Miniditka77

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kr3g wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

kr3g wrote...

Why locust can't have more damage than tempest?


Because its more accurate. If they weigh the same and have the same rarity, but the Locust all of a sudden had better accuracy and damage, then the Tempest would be irrelevant.

An irrelevant game mechanic is the worst thing a developer can put into a game and will be ignored by the playerbase.

In me2 locust have bigger damage.

Even with the same damage for both guns, they will have uses. (20 ammo vs 50?)

I don't know about that - I NEVER used the Tempest in ME2.  I would always unlock the Locust as early as possible and never look back.  The few times I was forced to use the Tempest were awful.  The only good use for the Tempest was on teammates (and that's not really relevant because it negated the accuracy penalty).

#115
Apl_Juice

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twxabfn wrote...

As far as it applies to video games, balance means that everything has strengths and weaknesses in roughly equal proportions. That leaves it up to the individual gamer which strengths they want to bring to the fight, and which weaknesses they either can a) deal with themselves or B) leave up to their teammates.

I keep trying to expand on this point, but every time I do I just end up saying exactly what GodlessPaladin said. So count me in as another that finds appeal in having to make meaningful decisions.


This so much! This is my entire opinion, right here!

Arrrrg!!!

/facewall
/facewall
/facewall

#116
whateverman7

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Apl_J wrote...

:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?

As it is now, there are definitive "best" builds. With balance, there isn't. As a result, people expirement more and have fun. They use other classes and find what works. I don't understand how you can say that you don't want people to use more varied skills. If there was a metric given for "Most used class on Gold", it would undoubtedly be the Infiltrator.


it keeps coming back to ego because that's what this is all about...look at the ones that have complained about balance and what they've used as evidence the game isnt balance....they are posting scores that they acheived, and then crying the game isnt balanced because they acheived said score....how is that not about ego?...

best builds doesnt mean a game isnt balanced...that's what the pro-balance people arent getting.....a game can be balanced and people will still find the 'best' way to beat it....that has happened since the beginning of gaming, and that will continue as long as there is gaming.....in the case of this game, people using the same builds to make the game easier for themselves doesnt mean the game isnt balanced, just means they are being sheep and following what has been established that works....there are enough things present in the game now to have people use varied skills....dont blame the game cause the community chooses not to use those things

#117
neteng101

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Apl_J wrote...

You're condensing it to its most basic. That isn't the case here.

DPS is only one metric with which a weapon can be measured. There's also Accuracy, Stability, Ammo Count/Clip Size, Weight, Rarity, etc. Those all have to be measured against eachother to determine a weapon's value, and that's only the weapon. That says nothing of the class, Species' special traits, Gear, Equipment, or Enemy type, which are all entire different fields.


Yes - mix up all the stats you want.  What GodlessPaladin is asking for is basically for a level playing field.  You can tweak every one of those knobs if you'd like, but it still results in the same thing.  Every weapon and every character and every class being perfectly and equally viable and balanced.

You've just killed all the fun in the game.  That sort of balance is totally uncalled for.  It removes all sense of accomplishment gained from mastering a class or power or weapon, because a lot of the balancing and compensating has already been done for you courtesy of the great "balance".

No weapon will feel special anymore, because they're all equally viable.  No characters will feel special anymore, because they're all equally viable.

Go ahead - continue talking about this balance...  you'll just kill all the fun then.

Is it so hard to just have fun in a game?  Can I ask you in return since I answered your initial question, why is achieving this sort of balance in a game so very important to you.  So far I keep hearing, its for diversity, but there's nothing terribly wrong with picking the choices we have.  I keep coming back to the conclusion that some people just feel the need to dictate how the game plays for everyone else.  Why can't people just mind their own business?

#118
Poison_Berrie

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neteng101 wrote...

No I got what you said the first time.  Its sameness to me.

Gun 1 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for X.

Gun 2 has this strength and this weakness.  Use it for Y.

Rock, paper, scissors right there.  End of day you're asking the playing field to be level/equal...  both guns are equally viable, just have to be used/played differently.  That's sameness because they're both equally viable!

At the end of the day, you're saying the DPS should be equal, even if everything else is different.

Your fallacy is that your only factor of decision or parameter up for balance are those related to DPS. 
There are a multitude more factors that weigh into the performance of a weapon and how it fits into the class you want it to use.

EDIT: @ Whateverman7: Should we roll back to day 1. Everything is balanced, why would assault rifles and SMG need extra damage.
I think people seem to forget there are two sides to balancing and one can't expect only one side to be employed.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 01 juin 2012 - 08:36 .


#119
GodlessPaladin

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neteng101 wrote...
You've just killed all the fun in the game.  That sort of balance is totally uncalled for.  It removes all sense of accomplishment gained from mastering a class or power or weapon, because a lot of the balancing and compensating has already been done for you courtesy of the great "balance".

 

This is nonsense.  For example, the Kishock was well-balanced and there was tons of reward for mastering it.  By stark contrast, easy mode crutch weapons like the Krysae do NOT offer this same sense of mastery.

In fact, desiring this sense of accomplishment and mastery of a weapon or class is part of the reason balance is desirable... not the other way around.

Is it so hard to just have fun in a game?  Can I ask you in return
since I answered your initial question, why is achieving this sort of
balance in a game so very important to you.

  I and others have given the long answer to this several times already and I don't really want to repeat myself ad nauseum.  As such, here's the short version:

Game balance is an essential aspect of good game design which makes games more fun and mechanically interesting, for numerous reasons already explained in depth throughout these discussions and indeed throughout the entire field of the study of game design.  We want balance because we want to have more fun.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 01 juin 2012 - 09:28 .


#120
neteng101

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twxabfn wrote...

As far as it applies to video games, balance means that everything has strengths and weaknesses in roughly equal proportions.


Except, this is not your typical PVP game.  Its co-op MP!

#121
whateverman7

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twxabfn wrote...

As far as it applies to video games, balance means that everything has strengths and weaknesses in roughly equal proportions. That leaves it up to the individual gamer which strengths they want to bring to the fight, and which weaknesses they either can a) deal with themselves or B) leave up to their teammates.


all that is present now in the game...everything has pros/cons and  it boils down to player's choice what they wanna use.....with that being the case: why are people saying the game isnt balanced?

#122
TheSevered

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Without reading all the preceding post except for the OP.

What about the player element here? There are several different skill levels out there so whats wrong with having a 'noob' gun? Don't argue that there are different difficulties cause there's always people that will wonder out of there skill range whether by accident or choice. Especially, when the higher difficulties offer higher rewards.

#123
Apl_Juice

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whateverman7 wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

:/

I'm upset that we keep coming back to the idea that we want balance just to stroke our egos. I don't know how else to say it: It simply isn't true. People who want nerfs because they are beaten by other players will always lose the argument to hard data and reason. Always.

So guys, can we leave the personal opinions at the door and stop trying to throw mud on everyone's motivations?

As it is now, there are definitive "best" builds. With balance, there isn't. As a result, people expirement more and have fun. They use other classes and find what works. I don't understand how you can say that you don't want people to use more varied skills. If there was a metric given for "Most used class on Gold", it would undoubtedly be the Infiltrator.


it keeps coming back to ego because that's what this is all about...look at the ones that have complained about balance and what they've used as evidence the game isnt balance....they are posting scores that they acheived, and then crying the game isnt balanced because they acheived said score....how is that not about ego?...

best builds doesnt mean a game isnt balanced...that's what the pro-balance people arent getting.....a game can be balanced and people will still find the 'best' way to beat it....that has happened since the beginning of gaming, and that will continue as long as there is gaming.....in the case of this game, people using the same builds to make the game easier for themselves doesnt mean the game isnt balanced, just means they are being sheep and following what has been established that works....there are enough things present in the game now to have people use varied skills....dont blame the game cause the community chooses not to use those things


Way to falsely label two different groups.

I've said this I don't know how many times:

-People who want nerfs or buffs for selfish reasons will always get de-bunked with hard data and logic EVERY TIME.
-I and many others don't care about score.
-Antibalance people use score to give false weight to their opinions too. I've heard "Well I can outscore so-and-so with an Eagle, so its perfectly balanced. <<<<That is wrong, and doesn't lend ANYTHING to the argument AT ALL.
-Why do people say that I can't adapt? Last time I checked, I can use the Krysae just fine. Ability to adapt has NO bearing on balance.




#124
neteng101

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whateverman7 wrote...

all that is present now in the game...everything has pros/cons and  it boils down to player's choice what they wanna use.....with that being the case: why are people saying the game isnt balanced?


Because...  at the end of the day, some people score more playing certain classes using certain weapons.  At the end of the day, it comes back to that useless score that's meaningless in a co-op MP game, but people are still hung up about beating everyone else.

Why do people play the OP classes and weapons when you have so much to choose from?  Its not the lack of balance that drives these sort of decisions, its just human nature, the selfish need for boosting one's own ego.

#125
GodlessPaladin

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neteng101 wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

all that is present now in the game...everything has pros/cons and  it boils down to player's choice what they wanna use.....with that being the case: why are people saying the game isnt balanced?


Because...  at the end of the day, some people score more playing certain classes using certain weapons.  At the end of the day, it comes back to that useless score that's meaningless in a co-op MP game, but people are still hung up about beating everyone else.

Why do people play the OP classes and weapons when you have so much to choose from?  Its not the lack of balance that drives these sort of decisions, its just human nature, the selfish need for boosting one's own ego.

*facepalm*

See Apl_J's statement immediately preceding yours.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 01 juin 2012 - 08:40 .