473 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Amirit wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

But if you can play the game in multiple ways surely there is no canon. And isn't the only canon that matters your personal one?

Good points. Both of them. There are some problems, though.

If there is no canon - I can not come to forums and discuss it. I can not come here and say "oh, what a woundeful love story it was - my F!Hawk and Fenris!" Someone will come and point out that Fenris is gay accoding to their vision. And it does ruin the moment (as would my interruption of gay-Fenris discussion). Now, with Alistair or Morrigan it's stable and no matter who am I talking to we are always on the same page. And I like stability...

Yet, "only your canon matters" is the right point too and your vision should not bother me at all. But it does and I do not know what to do with it 

My advice is to get off the forums, and I mean it in the nicest way possible, If you have trouble adjusting to the fact that Fenris can be 'gay' with a Hawke you don't have then don't come the forums so you can keep the game world you treasure intact.

I for example often don't play sequels if they somehow canonize a former game and unless my personal canon and the new canon line up, I often simply does not play the next game so the meta-reason don't ruin the game I already love, so I know the feeling you describe. This is also why I don't touch the books or comics or Leliana's song. I don't want to deal with these in my canon.

What you can't do is to demand that others have their game experience limited for your meta-reasoning. Dragon age is per definiton a canon-less universe in 80% of its aspect. So you won't find that stability here.

[Amirit]

Baronesa wrote...

Because your stance is rooted on bigotry and intolerance. You rather do not encounter same sex content, while no matter where I look I'm forced to swallow heteronormative content, how the hell is that fair?

Where, how did you read THAT in my post? You demonstrated more intolerance toward me in 2 sentences then I did in several posts on this forum toward anything. Why on earth my wish to see someone straight in MY game is insulting and yours to see someone gay or bi in EVERYONES game - is not? It's not a contradiction to you? Not at all? 

I do want choices. More choices then we have now. I want more game settings. I want to be able to set this, this and this character straight, that one bi and that one gay. Hence, do not see unwanted flirting options. For every particular game. What is wrong with that?


P.S. 
esper  You are right. It's just difficult not to talk about something you love and forums is the only place to do so. Normaly I do what you do - do not read things conradicting with my canons. But sometimes it is unavoidable.

Modifié par Amirit, 02 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Where, how did you read THAT in my post? You demonstrated more intolerance toward me in 2 sentences then I did in several posts on this forum toward anything. Why on earth my wish to see someone strait in MY game is insulting and yours to see someone gay or bi in EVERYONES game - is not? It's not a contradiction to you? Not at all?

Why would it be? "Seeing" someone as bisexual is the one most logically convenient for all; the only reason to see someone in particular who didn't have to be as specifically straight... well, that's hardly an encouraging sign, is it?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Sunnie22 wrote...

(...)

People are programmed from an early age by society to follow what that societies majority rule wants them to think, how to think it, and how to react.

I feel sorry for these people, their eyes will never really see the bigger world and all the wonders it contains. For how could they, since they can't even get past something as wonderful as another human being showing more thna a passing interest in them.  I am what I am, but that doesn't mean that I am not flattered when some good looking guy hits on me or compliments me in some way.

People need to leave their phobias back in the last century where they belong, which means overcomming  years and years of programming. Some manage it, but most don't, sadly.

This is unfortunately a long-standing issue that isn't about to fade any time soon. When you consider the reality of the situation, people rarely, if at all, overcome a belief they've grown up with since an early age. It's a form of adaptation and adjustment to given standards and situations. And while we've proved that we are a very capable species when it comes to adapting to new and unexpected settings, we have yet to figure out how to adapt psychologically as opposed to physically.

Indeed, it's a much more daunting task changing or overcoming a belief than it is to overcome a physical shortcoming. This is due to the simple fact that we're emotionally driven beings. That is, whatever we feel right with, especially from an early age, we are unlikely to feel otherwise toward.

Psychologically adjusting yourself and your beliefs/values tends to be a fight for most, if not all, people. I believe it stirs a lot of the current debates and issues society faces nowadays. We don't always think with our heads - we're far more emotionally driven than we'd like to admit.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 02 août 2012 - 04:36 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Everyone is PCsexual.
ALWAYS.

But in the case of DA2 it was somewhat silly.
What with Anders not talking about being in a homosexual relationship to a female Hawke, but talking about it with a male Hawke.

[Siansonea]

Amirit wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
 Don't want a romance option? Here's an idea, DON'T ROMANCE THAT CHARACTER.

Now, this one is wrong. It DOES bother me if I take some character as strait but when play the same gender have a flirting option. Why bothering me is less important then bothering you?

I will stay with my opinion: let us set NPC orientation for every game, like we can set hair color - and there will be no problems.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Are you serious?

Because the player artificially dictating the sexual orientation of NPCs is so realistic. Isn't that exactly what the haters are suggesting is bad if the game does it? Why is it okay if the player does it?

FAIL.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 août 2012 - 04:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Everyone is PCsexual.
ALWAYS.

But in the case of DA2 it was somewhat silly.
What with Anders not talking about being in a homosexual relationship to a female Hawke, but talking about it with a male Hawke.

True, he should have mentioned it with a female Hawke as well.

[Siansonea]

Amirit wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Because your stance is rooted on bigotry and intolerance. You rather do not encounter same sex content, while no matter where I look I'm forced to swallow heteronormative content, how the hell is that fair?

Where, how did you read THAT in my post? You demonstrated more intolerance toward me in 2 sentences then I did in several posts on this forum toward anything. Why on earth my wish to see someone strait in MY game is insulting and yours to see someone gay or bi in EVERYONES game - is not? It's not a contradiction to you? Not at all? 

I do want choices. More choices then we have now. I want more game settings. I want to be able to set this, this and this character strait, that one bi and that one gay. Hence, do not see unwanted flirting options. For every particular game. What is wrong with that?


P.S. 
esper  You are right. It's just difficult not to talk about something you love and forums is the only place to do so. Normaly I do what you do - do not read things conradicting with my canons. But sometimes it is unavoidable.

The fact that you can't see anything wrong with what you're asking for is what's wrong with what you're asking for. 

[Xilizhra]

Whether or not we want them to be bisexual has nothing whatsoever to do with their in-universe reasons for being such. It's not "making" them all be bisexual, it's just having all of the LIs we have be bisexual to begin with. That's the difference, and why it doesn't involve the player unduly controlling them.

[The Minority]

Oh boy, another topic about s/s romance in video games. This always ends well.

[Milan92]

Ivandra@ If they were already BI how does that contradict their personality?

[Flashflame58]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Like Anders for a start . He should't have been bi.

Who has the right to say, "oh, so-and-so shouldn't be bi", when these are BioWare's characters, it's their own vision for the character, not the fan's.
And they didn't retcon their (Anders and Merrill) sexuality, as it wasn't established in the first game or it's expansion.

As for future characters, whatever they invision their character to be, bi, straight, or gay (or non-romanceable), that's their choice to make, as developers. They are their characters, after all.

Modifié par Flashflame58, 02 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[aldien]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Hmm, even though discussing this subject is like stepping into a hornet's nest, I'll try and state my opinion on the matter as neutral as possible. I think Dragon Age: Origins did the right thing. You got a wide variety of characters, each with their personal background and sexual orientation, which added to their character and personality. You had a bit out of everything, which made your party a colourful mix of various personalities and interests. Let me give an example. My Warden romanced Alistair, who, in the game, is a straight man. Now suppose he wasn't straight, but gay. Well, I wouldn't have minded that. My Warden would probably have romanced Zevran then, or stayed single. (her personality didn't really fit the one of Zevran, as in, she saw Zevran more like a friend, but certainly not because of his sexuality) I honestly think that making all characters bisexual is kind of immersion-breaking. Why? Well, many people consider their sexuality as an unique part of their personality. What about the characters' personality then? Their sexuality is no longer theirs, but yours to decide. YOU want them to be bisexual and thus kind of force your own wishes upon them and change them according to what you want. It's no longer their own point of view on life and sexuality, but yours. That is why I consider making all characters bisexual unrealistic, because it does away with the character's own personality, because the characters have to conform to the wishes of the player of the game. It's no longer about the character him/herself. And THAT is my problem with making all characters bisexual. Mind you, I can understand the frustrations about not being able to romance character X or Y...But even though it's just a game character, show some respect and accept that character for how he or she is, just like you would show respect for a person's sexual orientation in real life. Now go ahead and call me a homophobe, if you wish.

I think you make some very good points. At the top of the list shold really be the story and the companion's stories. The actual sexual preference of each character really should be a minor thing but not defined.

Normally, I'd say the companions are like a character in a book and it is what it is. But this is a computer game that people pay a decent amount of money to play. People enjoy being able to control their games down to very minor details. That's why we end up with so many mods. It's also a fantasy/roleplaying game, not a representation of our world and has very little basis in reality. So, with that in mind it's hard to say limit this part of the game but not the rest. I don't have enough confidence after what I saw in DA2 for different sexual orientations to be portrayed well. That's not to be mean it's just a limitation because of many factors too numerous to list.

My wish is that BW make a great story first. The second is not to limit anyone's preference.

[hoorayforicecream]

Milan92 wrote...

Ivandra@ If they were already BI how does that contradict their personality?

Many people have the assumption that a character has to be explicitly bisexual through their behavior in order for it to be "realistic". It's a pretty textbook example of heteronormative privilege - that everyone is heteronormative by default, and deviations from this norm only exist if they explicitly show it.

Personally, I don't buy the idea of "heterosexual unless proven otherwise", but some do.

[bleetman]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Why? Well, many people consider their sexuality as an unique part of their personality.

And many people don't.

What about the characters' personality then? Their sexuality is no longer theirs, but yours to decide. YOU want them to be bisexual and thus kind of force your own wishes upon them and change them according to what you want. It's no longer their own point of view on life and sexuality, but yours.

I'm pretty sure the writing team wanted them to be bisexual. Thus, they were. And now, we have posts where people argue they ought to have been a mix of different sexualities as opposed to what they were.

What was that about not imposing what you want on them and changing them accordingly? 

That is why I consider making all characters bisexual unrealistic, because it does away with the character's own personality, because the characters have to conform to the wishes of the player of the game.

So instead of just being what they are, they should be what you want them to be. Y'know, to avoid them being unrealistic, immersion breaking oddities that conform to the wishes of the player.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2012 - 04:43 .

[PinkDiamondstl]

Flashflame58 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Like Anders for a start . He should't have been bi.

Who has the right to say, "oh, so-and-so shouldn't be bi", when these are BioWare's characters, it's their own vision for the character, not the fan's.
And they didn't retcon their (Anders and Merrill) sexuality, as it wasn't established in the first game or it's expansion.

As for future characters, whatever they invision their character to be, bi, straight, or gay (or non-romanceable), that's their choice to make, as developers. They are their characters, after all.

They did that because they do listen to the fans from to time you do know that right?
Merrill maybe but Anders no... that ruined that character for me he was my fav in DAOA. 

[syllogi]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Like Anders for a start . He should't have been bi.

Who has the right to say, "oh, so-and-so shouldn't be bi", when these are BioWare's characters, it's their own vision for the character, not the fan's.
And they didn't retcon their (Anders and Merrill) sexuality, as it wasn't established in the first game or it's expansion.

As for future characters, whatever they invision their character to be, bi, straight, or gay (or non-romanceable), that's their choice to make, as developers. They are their characters, after all.

They did that because they do listen to the fans from to time you do know that right?
Merrill maybe but Anders no... that ruined that character for me he was my fav in DAOA. 

So, it wasn't the fact that he had willingly bonded with a spirit, turning him into a barely contained abomination who is anguished and angry and drives him to commit an act of terrorism that may have led to the deaths of hundreds or thousands in Kirkwall that ruined Anders for you.

It was that he might hit on a male character and might divulge information about a past romance with a man.  That ruined Anders for you.

[PinkDiamondstl]

syllogi wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Like Anders for a start . He should't have been bi.

Who has the right to say, "oh, so-and-so shouldn't be bi", when these are BioWare's characters, it's their own vision for the character, not the fan's.
And they didn't retcon their (Anders and Merrill) sexuality, as it wasn't established in the first game or it's expansion.

As for future characters, whatever they invision their character to be, bi, straight, or gay (or non-romanceable), that's their choice to make, as developers. They are their characters, after all.

They did that because they do listen to the fans from to time you do know that right?
Merrill maybe but Anders no... that ruined that character for me he was my fav in DAOA. 

So, it wasn't the fact that he had willingly bonded with a spirit, turning him into a barely contained abomination who is anguished and angry and drives him to commit an act of terrorism that may have led to the deaths of hundreds or thousands in Kirkwall that ruined Anders for you.

It was that he might hit on a male character and might divulge information about a past romance with a man.  That ruined Anders for you.

 Exactly ....

Modifié par PinkDiamondstl, 02 août 2012 - 06:07 .

[Sealy]

Look if the reason you don't like the "everyone is bi" card is because it's unrealistic then all the power to you, you want to bash the lack of realism in a fantasy game them I say full steam ahead. It isn't offensive, it's a little wierd, cause meeting five (Aveline will kiss both sexes) bisexual people if far more of a possibility then meeting... a dragon.

If you are arguing that your fave romance can't be bisexual cause you don't want to "date" a character that might look at someone of the same sex and then you with hopeful puppy dog eyes of threesome goodness, then yah, your a little homophobic. *shrug*

[PinkDiamondstl]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

@bleetman: I was willing to continue my discussion on this subject, but your insult has taken away my wish to do so. I've been called a hypocrite and a homophobe far too many times without any legit reason. I tried to make my point clear in a neutral manner. I prefer story above details such as whether my character is able to bang a certain character. But people just want to twist the game in all directions to make it live up to their own fantasy. Well, I wish them much fun with that. It's their game, their life. But this is my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. And now I'm done here.

^
This  . I 100% agree.