473 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Actually, he never called you a homophobe. In any case, having everyone be bisexual... doesn't really harm the story; there's no dichotomy of choices.

[Amirit]

syllogi wrote...


It was that he might hit on a male character and might divulge information about a past romance with a man.  That ruined Anders for you.

May be not that but inconsistensy. During DAOA Anders mentioned many times his affection for women. You even have a dialog about it between him and Warden. Suddenly, in DA2 he is hitting on your M!Hawk. 

This is not the only broken thing in DA2 and we all understand why it was done the way it was done, but it can brake immersion for some people.

[Xilizhra]

No but it is unrealistic. Not everyone IS bi-sexual. The only disservice to any sexuality in RPG's is asexuality basicly doesn't exist to most or is never mentioned, quit your whining, there will always be Homophobes etc.

Not everyone is attracted to people like the PC either, but obviously the LIs will. That's why they are LIs. Why not include bisexuality with that?

May be not that but inconsistensy. During DAOA Anders mentioned many times his affection for women. You even have a dialog about it between him and Warden. Suddenly, in DA2 he is hitting on your M!Hawk.

There are numerous possibilities here. Maybe he's bisexual but still prefers women. Maybe he doesn't want to think about Karl at the moment.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

No but it is unrealistic.

In a story in which you battle dragons, talk to ten foot tall men with horns and summon fireballs.

Modifié par The Uncanny, 02 août 2012 - 06:30 .

[berelinde]

The Uncanny wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

No but it is unrealistic.

In a story in which you battle dragons, talk to ten foot tall men with horns and summon fieballs.

Precisely. Priorities, yo. <_<

[CrazyRah]

I just can't get the it's unrealistic argument. I mean we're after all running around shooting fireballs at each other while trying to not get squashed by several different sorts of monsters

[CuriousArtemis]

Consider that Thedas is not Earth; it is a fantasy world. If it makes the bi-haters feel better, just assume that bisexuality is far more common on Thedas than on Earth. Though of course, gay and bi people are everywhere; most straight people just tend to assume everyone is straight until proven otherwise. At any given moment, your high school math teacher, your cousin, your co-worker, and the woman at the DMV are probably gay or bi and you just don't even realize it.

[Milan92]

Look! I'm fighting dragons! I even came across a hawt witch who could turn into a dragon, but we can't be bi because that would make it unrealistic!!!!!

[CuriousArtemis]

CrazyRah wrote...

I just can't get the it's unrealistic argument. I mean we're after all running around shooting fireballs at each other while trying to not get squashed by several different sorts of monsters

Well because it's not really an argument.  It's ... sort of a front?  For being uncomfortable with Anders hitting on a male PC or knowing that your favorite LI can be romanced by a Hawke of the opposite gender of your Hawke.  

But it's not cool to hate on gay folks anymore so they convince themselves that they aren't homophobic ("I fully support people's right to live how they want to live ... therefore I am not homophobic.  Now get these gay people out of my game.") and then come up with seemingly rational arguments for why player choice matters in all aspects of the game except when it comes to gender and romance.

[Baronesa]

By the way since people argue that it breaks the canon and all of this is immersion breaking and blah blah blah...

Same-gender relationships

Same-sex relations are generally considered odd but not immoral in Ferelden. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for (if not encouragement of) relations with multiple partners of either sex. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.

http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_marriage

Modifié par Baronesa, 02 août 2012 - 06:45 .

[highcastle]

I'm really getting sick of the argument that bisexual romances cheapen anything. No they don't. They add content. They allow any character to pursue the LI of their choice. And sure, you could load up an old save and experience the romance arcs with the same character. You can do that with the endings, too. You can do that with any many quest change, just reload as much as you want to experience all the content with one character. Where's the enticement to play as another character there?

The bottom line is this: making the LIs bisexual doesn't detract from anyone's experience. It only adds to it. If you don't want to romance a character with the same gender PC, then don't do it. If you're uncomfortable with a same gender character hitting on your PC, then maybe question those feelings. Ask yourself why it makes you so afraid or uncomfortable. But don't lay the blame on the game designers for providing that content or saying it cheapened the experience. It's not the devs fault. They should be encouraged for adding diversity to these games.

[Cartims]

Not everyone is Bi Sexual, not everyone is Straight, not everyone is Gay, not everyone is Black, or white or anything else.....
Everyone is ALL OF US......"ALL" of us are different and unique and beautiful...

[bleetman]

I've noticed that people have a tendancy to be very specific with regards to caring about realism. Specifically, only when it justifies the removal of something they want removed.

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

@bleetman: I was willing to continue my discussion on this subject, but your insult has taken away my wish to do so. I've been called a hypocrite and a homophobe far too many times without any legit reason.

Maybe because you keep saying things which are hypocritical and entirely self contradictory.

Your argument, summarised, consisted of two main points:

1. Characters shouldn't be changed to better fit the desires of the player.
2. Characters should've better fit your desires.

This? This kind of thing is why you get accused of such.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 août 2012 - 07:11 .

[jlb524]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...
Hmm, even though discussing this subject is like stepping into a hornet's nest, I'll try and state my opinion on the matter as neutral as possible. I think Dragon Age: Origins did the right thing. You got a wide variety of characters, each with their personal background and sexual orientation, which added to their character and personality. You had a bit out of everything, which made your party a colourful mix of various personalities and interests.

...and DA2 lacked this?

The DA:O romances are far from perfect as far as "immersion" goes.

"LOLz, yeah, you don't like my goody goody ways but I'll give you a crap-o ton of dog bone 'gifts' so you'll fall for me."

Elf/human pairings are supposed to be a bit tabboo in the lore and not nearly as common as human/human or elf/elf but that doesn't stop the PC from easily hooking up with the elf (or the elven PC hooking up with the humans).

I can't say I've seen any dwarf/human pairings but all human LIs in DA:O will romance a dwarf PC without batting an eye.

[TheChris92]

Think it is interesting that people consider the open bisexual romances in DA2 to be unrealistic, immersion breaking even. While at the same time other BioWare romances are pretty unrealistic too given that it is so easy for the protagonist to start and maintain a relationship with the said characters. In ME1 for instance. The game makes it seem so easy which it really isn't. And comparing a character's sexuality with that of their personality is stretching it a bit too far I think. Ones sexuality doesn't determine how one might perceive society, people, or their own way of life. Romancing Fenris as a Male Hawke doesn't change how he feel about mages, or anything his life. I never got to discover this either, because I might have played a Female Hawke who was romancing someone else. I think it is pretty cool because it allows the player to set up his/her own universe. In one players universe Fenris might be homosexual, while in another he might not be. It doesn't cheapen his character, because he doesn't stop thinking the way he do. He might change his opinions throughout the game, or maybe even develop, but that has nothing to do with his sexuality. My thoughts on it.

[jlb524]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...
That's true but the people in the DA:O universe are still "Human" yes? Then more than likely not all of them are Bi-sexual, but if you want them simply for more options, fine I see your point but I prefer again, a darker more realistic approach. 

There's never a case where every person in the DA:O/DA2 universe is explicitely shown to be bisexual.

Unless I missed something in all my playthroughs of the games.

[syllogi]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No but it is unrealistic. Not everyone IS bi-sexual. The only disservice to any sexuality in RPG's is asexuality basicly doesn't exist to most or is never mentioned, quit your whining, there will always be Homophobes etc.

Not everyone is attracted to people like the PC either, but obviously the LIs will. That's why they are LIs. Why not include bisexuality with that?

That's fair, but honestly I prefer a Darker more realistic approach. 

If the game were realistic, I could at least flirt with EVERYONE, and realistically, they would at least acknowledge it, unlike Varric and Aveline, for instance.  And if the game were realistic, those characters I flirted with would take into account my player character's physical appearance, social stature, past and present actions, and the state of the world around us, before deciding whether they would reciprocate my character's affection, with varying results.

That is a darker, more realistic approach I would be okay with.  But it will be a very long time, if ever, before a video game that also has an engaging main plot and game mechanics would put that much effort into romances.

Until then, I'd really prefer all bi love interests.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

That's true but the people in the DA:O universe are still "Human" yes? Then more than likely not all of them are Bi-sexual, but if you want them simply for more options, fine I see your point but I prefer again, a darker more realistic approach. 

So you're fine with the game being 'unrealistic' so long as it's 'realistic'?

Modifié par The Uncanny, 02 août 2012 - 07:40 .

[jlb524]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...
They don't need to be but imagine if the DA Universe lasts and you get more companions in further on games, are 22 people with specialities others don't, all going to be Bi-sexual too? That's a bit more stretching of belief than needed. 

I doubt that all of the companions in the next game will be explicitely bisexual.

That wasn't the case in DA2...Isabela was the only one.

Even when playing DA:O as a female, it's hard for me to say that Zevran and Leliana were explicitely bisexual as I don't recall either of them showing interest in men during the course of my playthrough.    Maybe there's that one banter I missed where Zevran talks about it but still...I didn't experience it as I played.

[Skypezee]

I'm going to quote Yahtzee on this because I think he says it rather nicely in his "Extra Punctuation" article on DA2.

David Gaider's statement that the romances in DA2 are intended for "everyone" struck a chord with me, because I already intended to write a column about my personal experience with the romances in the game. I think David's statement goes deeper than he may have intended - any player of any sexuality can enjoy any of the romances in the game.

It's not about making all characters bi-sexual for the sake of being bi-sexual. It's about making it so any player can enjoy a romance regardless of sexuality. If you want to romance a male character as a female, fine. If you want to romance that same male character as a dude, that's fine too. It's about the concept of role playing where you can do whatever you want and perceive the world and the characters around you however you want to perceive it. "No! Anders is straight!' Okay, then he's straight for you and your character. "No! Anders is bi/gay!" okay, then for your and your character he shall be bi/gay. It's all about flexibility for not just the character but the game as whole so that way people can have their own experiences with the game.

The only ones who are making the game "unrealistic" are the people playing it because they are only seeing it for what it is without understanding what the intention was, which is to allow for people to role play however they want to role play along with being able to enjoy any of the romances in the game regardless of their own sexuality.

Modifié par Skypezee, 02 août 2012 - 07:47 .