473 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Here's the thing, you're chosing what's "realistic" or not based on modern day attidues about sexuality. Which, and this shouldn't come as much of a shocker given the content of this thread, are still pretty stigmatized. Thedas doesn't have that same stigma in regards to sexual orientation or gender. Which is why we can also see women as major powers in the military and as world leaders while in many parts of reality is still "unrealistic."

It is perfectly realistic that without the framework of oppressive forces, more people would feel comfortable exploring their sexuality rather than feeling limited to a binary option. Or feeling pressured to choose someone of the opposite sex. When you make statements about realism like this, you're applying 21st Century Western World standards to a fantasy land. Stop that. Allusions are fine, but Thedas is not a direct parallel of the real world.

No, not at all. 

But the game states they are Human. Humans, wherever they are will not all be Bisexual. 

Unless this is a different species with the same name. 

First, Merrill and Fenris are elves. Please show me how elven sexuality pertains to your idea of realism

Second, not all humans are bisexual. Only Anders and Isabela are explicitly shown as such. Who knows about Aveline or Carver or Bethany or Leandra or the Viscount or Sebastian (who actually seems to be straight) or Elthina or--

Do I really need to continue? There are tons of humans in this game. Only two are known to be bisexual. Next arguement

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

So what is the 'usual' setting you spoke of?

And if all the LIs have been written as bi, how is their inclusion 'tacked on'?

What do you mean?

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

It can't simply be put in, in a setting where it's not usual.

I'd just like to know what the setting that you consider is usual would be?

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

If they all "had" been written as bi-sexual, with different reactions to the player it would have been fine.

All 4 LIs in DA2 aren't bi? I don't understand what you mean?

Modifié par The Uncanny, 02 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[Fox In The Box]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The fact that they're all Bi, is what's unusual. 

It is not unusual at all. The list of queer characters in the DA-verse is pretty long;

Leliana, Marjolaine, Zevran, Taliesin, Merrill, Isabela, Branka, Hespith, Fenris, Anders , Herren, Wade, Tallis, Jethann, Dairren, Iona. Two wardens in "The Calling". There are probably more, but they escape me at the moment.

And all of the love interests, with the exception of Fenris perhaps, do behave differently with Hawke depending on gender. I'm not sure where you get that from.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 02 août 2012 - 08:45 .

[highcastle]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

highcastle wrote...


First, Merrill and Fenris are elves. Please show me how elven sexuality pertains to your idea of realism

Second, not all humans are bisexual. Only Anders and Isabela are explicitly shown as such. Who knows about Aveline or Carver or Bethany or Leandra or the Viscount or Sebastian (who actually seems to be straight) or Elthina or--

Do I really need to continue? There are tons of humans in this game. Only two are known to be bisexual. Next arguement

I'm sorry in my opinion Elves, Dwarfs etc are all part of Humanity.

They're all the same on the inside, but yet individuals. 

Fine. Even using that logic, we don't know the sexuality of Merrill's clan or the elves in the Alienage or the dwarves in the Merchant's Guild or Bartrand or Bodahn or Sandal. Do you see where I'm going with this? Do you know how many dozens of characters get presented in these games? And how many are explicitly bisexual? Four. That's it. Four. 

But again, it's soooooo unrealistic.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

I'd just like to know what the setting that you consider is usual would be?

All 4 LIs in DA2 aren't bi? I don't understand what you mean?

It's not usual for four people in a party in a RPG to all be Bi-Sexual, not wrong just unusual.

It is unusual for a given four people to be bisexual?

But that is the case in DA2. So you find it unusual because it occurs in DA2 even though it happening in DA2 shows that it can occur?

Modifié par The Uncanny, 02 août 2012 - 08:55 .

[highcastle]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

highcastle wrote...


First, Merrill and Fenris are elves. Please show me how elven sexuality pertains to your idea of realism

Second, not all humans are bisexual. Only Anders and Isabela are explicitly shown as such. Who knows about Aveline or Carver or Bethany or Leandra or the Viscount or Sebastian (who actually seems to be straight) or Elthina or--

Do I really need to continue? There are tons of humans in this game. Only two are known to be bisexual. Next arguement

I'm sorry in my opinion Elves, Dwarfs etc are all part of Humanity.

They're all the same on the inside, but yet individuals. 

Fine. Even using that logic, we don't know the sexuality of Merrill's clan or the elves in the Alienage or the dwarves in the Merchant's Guild or Bartrand or Bodahn or Sandal. Do you see where I'm going with this? Do you know how many dozens of characters get presented in these games? And how many are explicitly bisexual? Four. That's it. Four. 

But again, it's soooooo unrealistic.

Yep, We do not know. That's the way it is in real life. 

Right. Four bisexual LIs is not excessive. Everyone else's personal lives in the game are their own business. So glad we see eye to eye on this.

[AbsoluteApril]

Is it really that hard to ignore the 'heart' if you don't want to think that chacter in your personal story is bi or gay or whatever? It breaks immersion knowing the character might be different in another PT? If you're already done a PT, then wouldn't simply knowing the ending break immersion? perhaps that is a bad comparision. (<-this response was for comments made a couple pages ago..)

Anyways, thought this might be a good place to re-quote Mr. Gaider's big post as it had some (imo) relevance to this subject. originally from: http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8

David Gaider wrote...
(The romances are) for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

<snip>

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

<snip>

Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 02 août 2012 - 09:04 .

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

I'd just like to know what the setting that you consider is usual would be?

All 4 LIs in DA2 aren't bi? I don't understand what you mean?

It's not usual for four people in a party in a RPG to all be Bi-Sexual, not wrong just unusual.

It is unusual for a given four people to be bisexual?

But that is the case in DA2. So you find it unusual because it occurs in DA2 even though it happening in DA2 shows that it can occur?

Four to be Bi-sexual in the same group with unique talents of battling

Their combat skills alter the likelihood of them being bisexual?

[Sealy]

You know as far as realism goes I think the "Bisexual people are unicorns and incredibly rare" argument should be dropped and the "if you are having sex with Fenris and buy a slave he'll dump you" should be brought back. I really dislike the locked system where once you have them at one end of the spectrum you can do whatever you want and they don't even care. I liked that Wynne and Leliana would turn on you if the got pushed to far.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

I'd just like to know what the setting that you consider is usual would be?

All 4 LIs in DA2 aren't bi? I don't understand what you mean?

It's not usual for four people in a party in a RPG to all be Bi-Sexual, not wrong just unusual.

It is unusual for a given four people to be bisexual?

But that is the case in DA2. So you find it unusual because it occurs in DA2 even though it happening in DA2 shows that it can occur?

Four to be Bi-sexual in the same group with unique talents of battling

Their combat skills alter the likelihood of them being bisexual?

No, the fact they all happen to be doing all these things at once, exactly the same does. Varation in character is always good. 

But in most generic fantasy a team of extraordinary characters are assembled (Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance: Chronicles, etc.). I thought you approved of such conventions?

[Fox In The Box]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

No, hell, I don't even want it removed. If somebody else is enjoying something why remove it, I just think they should upgrade it. Give it more footing to stand on. 

What do you mean by "more footing to stand on"? Can you give an example as to why you think the four Love Interests in DA2 were not written as bisexuals?

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

But in most generic fantasy a team of extraordinary characters are assembled (Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance: Chronicles, etc.). I thought you approved of such conventions?

I do, but I mean the fact that depending on Gender they don't react differently, they treat you exactly the same is the problem. 

They shouldn't change character but simply add more to that character. 

For instance (Male) Anders V1 contradicts, (Female) Anders V2. 

You may think he's Bisexual but he never states it, So he's technically to some a different character because of this. But Perhaps he is. We'll never know because of how badly, DA2 works. 

Bi-sexuality isn't the only issue with this.

I agree that there should be more options and more variant dialogue... but why does that need to have anything to do with all the LIs being bisexual?

And how does what a character fails to state make them a 'different character'?

And what is it about DA2 that works badly?

[Fox In The Box]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...


I do, but I mean the fact that depending on Gender they don't react differently, they treat you exactly the same is the problem. 

They shouldn't change character but simply add more to that character. 

For instance (Male) Anders V1 contradicts, (Female) Anders V2. 

You may think he's Bisexual but he never states it, So he's technically to some a different character because of this. But Perhaps he is. We'll never know because of how badly, DA2 works. 

Bi-sexuality isn't the only issue with this.  

Subjective sexuality - the idea that the characters' sexual orientation differ based on the gender of the PC - is pretty much bull, though. Karl was always Anders' lover, even if Hawke is female, but his writer thought he would choose to not mention that to her. They are all bisexual.