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[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

But in most generic fantasy a team of extraordinary characters are assembled (Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance: Chronicles, etc.). I thought you approved of such conventions?

I do, but I mean the fact that depending on Gender they don't react differently, they treat you exactly the same is the problem. 

They shouldn't change character but simply add more to that character. 

For instance (Male) Anders V1 contradicts, (Female) Anders V2. 

You may think he's Bisexual but he never states it, So he's technically to some a different character because of this. But Perhaps he is. We'll never know because of how badly, DA2 works. 

Bi-sexuality isn't the only issue with this.

I agree that there should be more options and more variant dialogue... but why does that need to have anything to do with all the LIs being bisexual?

And how does what a character fails to state make them a 'different character'?

And what is it about DA2 that works badly?

I seems like the developers were being lazy and decided
"Hay make them all Bi and we can use half the dialogue!" When it actually took away from the experience in my opinion. 

No, no what they fail to state but occasionally they act the opposite of their "Other self" it's minor but breaks immersion. 

The Game. ಠ__ಠ 

How did the LIs being bi detract from your experience?

How can something you need never be aware of break your immersion?

[jlb524]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...
You can't change a character simply by existing, that is unrealistic. 
But if you made them realise that they are Bi-sexual then that's fantastic that's a well implemented RPG option, but to simply make them Bi-sexual through your sheer existance is silly. 

This type of narrative is differnt from a movie or book though...it starts at the beginning when you have input into defining the main protagonist.

..and it's not real life.

We can change lots of things about the game world and characters that change from playthrough to playthrough simply by creating a character and having it exist in the game world.  I think that is the appeal of these type of narratives over reading a book...it's cool that I have some input into how the story line progresses.

Also, you aren't actually "making them bisexual through your sheer existence" it's just that the game allows for a few varying interpretations of a character's sexuality.  The game isn't presenting a scenario where character X was shown to be explicitly heterosexual before meeting the PC but then changed due to the PC's existence.

[Fox In The Box]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

This is exactly, what I mean. It's silly.  

"It's pretty much Bull" is correct but the problem is that it can be assumed, this needs to be fixed. 

So, if I understand correctly; you want the characters to explicitly tell you that they are attracted to both genders? Like, for instance, Merrill mentioning a crush she's had on another woman?

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

How did the LIs being bi detract from your experience?

How can something you need never be aware of break your immersion?

Not them being bi-sexual actually, but the lack of effort put into it. 
It feels like an afterthough because of the rushed product, it could've been so much more. 
But the fact that it's four. While a little stretching realism, Isn't the real problem, what I stated above is.

Because even though I try not to Meta-Game I do play several playthroughs and it annoys me when it pops up.

Ah. So you're actually fine with bi LIs, you just think it could be better written?

What annoys you when what pops up?

Modifié par The Uncanny, 02 août 2012 - 10:07 .

[jlb524]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

You are changing things through your sheer existance, that's the damn problem.

"It's not who you are underneath, but what you do that defines you."

I'm just not following you.

The game world possibly changes due to what type of character you select and play through as.

That's like, how these games work for the most part.

If I decide to start DA:O off with a City Elf, things in Ferelden change b/c of that characters existence (compared to someone that selects a Circle Mage).

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Ah. So you're actually fine with bi LIs, you just think it could be better written?

What annoys you when what pops up?

Yes. 

The occasional contradictory piece of dialogue according to Gender or whatever. 

Feels and looks like rushed Dialogue.

Ah! We have an accord! 

Yes... I think some of the scripting in DA2 is very good but I definitely think that more variant dialogue would help create a more individual experience for each player. It's a lot of work, I get that. But I think the outcome would be worth it.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

Yeah. 

Yes, I'd prefer that too. 

Bioware sees the solution as: "Less dialogue and more auto-dialogue." 

Which is going to fail in the long run.

I completely agree. There should be more interactive dialogue not less. More options empower the player and enable them to play the game their way. More options help us create a character and play a role.

Yay for options! 

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

Yeah, like I miss the smart dialogue option sometimes, y'know when you used to level up persuade and intelligence. Damn, I miss stat bars. I know they're there in DA2 but they don't have much effect. 

Yes. I'd be happy to see more done with stats. I love the implementation in Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines for instance. They have real impact on your game and your character.

[The Uncanny]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

I've never played that but heard a lot, what's it like?

It's great... one of my all time favourites! It's much closer to something like Deus Ex than, say, Mass Effect, though.

On topic: it would be interesting to see what BW would have done with Velvet Velour and Jeanette.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Subjective sexuality - the idea that the characters' sexual orientation differ based on the gender of the PC - is pretty much bull, though. Karl was always Anders' lover, even if Hawke is female, but his writer thought he would choose to not mention that to her. They are all bisexual.

I'm curious...the dialogue differences for f/m PCs re: Karl. Has a DA2 writer actually come out and said that Karl was Anders' lover in both cases, or is this an assumption on your part? If it's been explicitly mentioned, can you tell me where or by whom?

It's always intrigued me somewhat to learn if Anders' past is deliberately changed to 'suit' the PC (which is a concept I don't like), or if he simply speaks differently about it depending on if he's talking to a male or female. I've always leaned towards the former being the truth of it.

[brushyourteeth]

syllogi wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Like Anders for a start . He should't have been bi.

Who has the right to say, "oh, so-and-so shouldn't be bi", when these are BioWare's characters, it's their own vision for the character, not the fan's.
And they didn't retcon their (Anders and Merrill) sexuality, as it wasn't established in the first game or it's expansion.

As for future characters, whatever they invision their character to be, bi, straight, or gay (or non-romanceable), that's their choice to make, as developers. They are their characters, after all.

They did that because they do listen to the fans from to time you do know that right?
Merrill maybe but Anders no... that ruined that character for me he was my fav in DAOA. 

So, it wasn't the fact that he had willingly bonded with a spirit, turning him into a barely contained abomination who is anguished and angry and drives him to commit an act of terrorism that may have led to the deaths of hundreds or thousands in Kirkwall that ruined Anders for you.

It was that he might hit on a male character and might divulge information about a past romance with a man.  That ruined Anders for you.

I have to say, this made me LOL. 

As a female player who romanced Anders through two playthroughs, I'm still a little offended/annoyed that the MHawke/Anders romance got the exclusive Karl content and we didn't
 
From an in-game standpoint, DG's stance is that if he didn't say it, it may have never happened, or "Why would Anders tell a girl he had sex with a guy?" I don't know. Maybe he trusts us? Why would he tell a guy he romanced but not a girl? Why should we assume FHawke couldn't be trusted with that information any less than MHawke? There's subtle discrimination involved in that progamming choice.

From an out of game standpoint, it seems to me that was something the writers deliberately left out of the FHawke dialogue because they assumed we wouldn't be able to accept a romance with a guy who'd been with another guy. And that's bull. Maybe it's true for some, or even the majority of female players, but it's still bull and not worth pandering to. My gender shouldn't affect Anders' sexual past or his choice to talk about it. Either give it to us and let us work it out like adults (which would be my choice) or let MHawke be Anders' "first", but don't lock us out of content just because you don't trust the fans to be mature and accepting.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 03 août 2012 - 01:31 .

[HiddenxHydra]

Dragon Age Origins balanced the character romance options pretty well, in my opinion.

There were numerous dialogue hints that told a player what the companion was into. Some of them were pretty obvious ( Easy Lover, Zevran's achievement). Leliana had dialogue hints when she spoke about Orlais and her life as a bard in addition to the optional threesome with Isabella at the Pearl.

Now, consider DAII's companions and the way they were coming on to the main character in Act I, out of the blue, with no hints and little background to indicate their sexual preferences. It's also a bit annoying, though not *entirely* unjustified, to receive rivalry points for turning them down. I did, however, laugh when I declined Fenris's flattery and Hawke turned to him and said "Back off" in a menacing tone. In short, I think that making all the characters bisexual might limit certain aspects of their character development ( the aforementioned hints ) and turn them all into Easy Lovers like Zevran.

[AbsoluteApril]

brushyourteeth wrote...

but don't lock us out of content just because you don't trust the fans to be mature and accepting.

maybe it was just one of many various different dialogues they wrote into the game so players get NPCs saying different things on multiple PTs based on their choices, maybe no one realized it might offend? I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 03 août 2012 - 01:42 .