473 réponses à ce sujet

[Wrathion]

HiddenxHydra wrote...

Dragon Age Origins balanced the character romance options pretty well, in my opinion.

There were numerous dialogue hints that told a player what the companion was into. Some of them were pretty obvious ( Easy Lover, Zevran's achievement). Leliana had dialogue hints when she spoke about Orlais and her life as a bard in addition to the optional threesome with Isabella at the Pearl.

Now, consider DAII's companions and the way they were coming on to the main character in Act I, out of the blue, with no hints and little background to indicate their sexual preferences. It's also a bit annoying, though not *entirely* unjustified, to receive rivalry points for turning them down. I did, however, laugh when I declined Fenris's flattery and Hawke turned to him and said "Back off" in a menacing tone. In short, I think that making all the characters bisexual might limit certain aspects of their character development ( the aforementioned hints ) and turn them all into Easy Lovers like Zevran.

3 romances for M!Warden, 2 for F!Warden; BALANCE!!! and I would have gotten away with it to. If it weren't for that meddling kid


Er...how does Easy Lover reveal someones sexual preference? Oh oh oh, because people that don't care whether or not you identify as male or female (or neither) have no standards and are all rampant sex fiends that bone anything that crosses their path. Easy Lovers right...

Pfft, the only character that actively flirts without a prompt is Isabela. I have no idea where you're getting they were ALL coming onto the main character in Act 1. I tend not to count Anders flirt the way he reacts afterwards suggests to me that he was so engrossed with your sexy man-face that he forgot anyone would have a problem with it.

I guess all the characters that aren't straight should just have "******" displayed over their head so you aren't shocked when they "hit on you out of the blue". That's expected of those people right...<_<

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 03 août 2012 - 03:30 .

[berelinde]

2 for F!Warden? I count three... if you count Leliana. Granted, I would rather savage my ears with a fork than romance her, but apparently, she likes women.

[Wrathion]

berelinde wrote...

2 for F!Warden? I count three... if you count Leliana. Granted, I would rather savage my ears with a fork than romance her, but apparently, she likes women.

Oh right, forgot about her. That's what I get for never romancing her 
Need another point now.

[Sealy]

Really people manage to not romance her. Cause I told that girl a trillion times that I just wanted to be friends and she would go "friends, oh sure I can do that!" Then yell at me for cheating next camp out.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 03 août 2012 - 04:54 .

[thats1evildude]

I worked around that problem by only romancing Leliana.

[Sealy]

thats1evildude wrote...

I worked around that problem by only romancing Leliana.

Uhg, why the bloody hell didn't I think of that. You're a life saver dude.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

but don't lock us out of content just because you don't trust the fans to be mature and accepting.

maybe it was just one of many various different dialogues they wrote into the game so players get NPCs saying different things on multiple PTs based on their choices, maybe no one realized it might offend? I don't know, just throwing it out there.

It's possible, but it felt like the Karl relationship was explicitly stated for male PCs so that male PCs would know straight away that Anders is interested in men. Whereas it's not explicitly stated for female PCs so that female PCs don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.

The conscious choice to have that difference in lines just intrigues me. I'm not convinced it's a question of player maturity, as Anders saying he's been with a guy at all, to anyone was probably enough to cause fansplosions. Like I said on a previous page, I'm wondering if it was done to foster the PCsexual (as opposed to bisexual) direction Dragon Age is going with LIs.

[HiddenxHydra]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

HiddenxHydra wrote...

Dragon Age Origins balanced the character romance options pretty well, in my opinion.

There were numerous dialogue hints that told a player what the companion was into. Some of them were pretty obvious ( Easy Lover, Zevran's achievement). Leliana had dialogue hints when she spoke about Orlais and her life as a bard in addition to the optional threesome with Isabella at the Pearl.

Now, consider DAII's companions and the way they were coming on to the main character in Act I, out of the blue, with no hints and little background to indicate their sexual preferences. It's also a bit annoying, though not *entirely* unjustified, to receive rivalry points for turning them down. I did, however, laugh when I declined Fenris's flattery and Hawke turned to him and said "Back off" in a menacing tone. In short, I think that making all the characters bisexual might limit certain aspects of their character development ( the aforementioned hints ) and turn them all into Easy Lovers like Zevran.

3 romances for M!Warden, 2 for F!Warden; BALANCE!!! and I would have gotten away with it to. If it weren't for that meddling kid


Er...how does Easy Lover reveal someones sexual preference? Oh oh oh, because people that don't care whether or not you identify as male or female (or neither) have no standards and are all rampant sex fiends that bone anything that crosses their path. Easy Lovers right...

Pfft, the only character that actively flirts without a prompt is Isabela. I have no idea where you're getting they were ALL coming onto the main character in Act 1. I tend not to count Anders flirt the way he reacts afterwards suggests to me that he was so engrossed with your sexy man-face that he forgot anyone would have a problem with it.

I guess all the characters that aren't straight should just have "******" displayed over their head so you aren't shocked when they "hit on you out of the blue". That's expected of those people right...<_<

I cited the easy lover achievement as *one* example of a character's ( lack of ) sexual preferences. I assumed that we had all played the games and could easily think of other examples. But, instead of clarifying anything, you've decided that my argument is nothing more than fodder for the "ignorant homophobe" bonfire. Which is exactly what the TC said he wished to avoid on page 1. Great job, way to further the discussion.

[ladyofpayne]

I want that reltionships M+M or F+F different from M+F.  Not DA 2 type- M+M with Anders only little different than M+F. Gender of Hawke not that thing could be forgotten.

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 03 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[Fox In The Box]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I'm curious...the dialogue differences for f/m PCs re: Karl. Has a DA2 writer actually come out and said that Karl was Anders' lover in both cases, or is this an assumption on your part? If it's been explicitly mentioned, can you tell me where or by whom?

Sure thing. Here's the source and below is the relevant quote;

What's distinctive about BioWare's approach is that although players may choose to have straight or gay romances in the game, the characters themselves are written to be gay from the start. A player's choices merely reveal their bisexuality if it exists, rather than defining it. Take Anders, who will reveal to a male Hawke his prior involvement with a man named Karl, but neglect to mention it to a female Hawke.


"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

I'm not sure wether Anders' characterization or the desire to let certain players perceive him as straight if they wished weighed the heaviest in this decision, but nevertheless.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 03 août 2012 - 02:25 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Sure thing. Here's the source and below is the relevant quote;

Thank you! Adjusting old opinions accordingly.

I'm not sure wether Anders' characterization or the desire to let certain players perceive him as straight if they wished weighed the heaviest in this decision, but nevertheless.

Admittedly it feels odd (to me) that Anders would be open about Karl to a man but not a woman...but then he's not my character. If that's how Hepler says Anders responds to that situation, then that's how it is, and I'm happy if the dialogue differences were only motivated by in character reasons.

Thanks again for the clarification.

[Fox In The Box]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Thanks again for the clarification.

Glad to be of service!

[draken-heart]

i think i said this once before, but i believe that Merrill might have had something more than just a student/teacher or mother/daughter relationship with Marethari, or Merrill could have been Asexual until hawke came around and swept her off her feet (especially in a rivalmance). the same asexual argument can be true of Fenris.

Modifié par draken-heart, 03 août 2012 - 03:43 .

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Admittedly it feels odd (to me) that Anders would be open about Karl to a man but not a woman...but then he's not my character. If that's how Hepler says Anders responds to that situation, then that's how it is, and I'm happy if the dialogue differences were only motivated by in character reasons.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Anders not giving somebody the whole story feels spot on to me. The cagey little... hmmm... swear words are bad *winks*. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Anders has always seemed careful about what he shares and I don't see him being any different, even with somebody he loves because I think he is afraid of being rejected. I would think he would be even more careful with somebody he loves. It's just the way I see Anders, I'm not saying you're wrong.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 août 2012 - 04:52 .

[Sealy]

What's distinctive about BioWare's approach is that although players may choose to have straight or gay romances in the game, the characters themselves are written to be gay from the start. A player's choices merely reveal their bisexuality if it exists, rather than defining it. Take Anders, who will reveal to a male Hawke his prior involvement with a man named Karl, but neglect to mention it to a female Hawke.


"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

Well thanks a ton for crushing all my arguments in support of bisexuality.  Here I was saying taking a bisexuality as a pick you own poison/whatever doesn't make you uncomfortable sexuality was insulting. Apparently the writers don't mind someone doing that with their characters and now I can't even... uhg. Whatever.

Giant effort put into including Homosexual/Lesbian romances and a giant finger to those of us that are bisexual, we apparently are not a sexuality, we're just waiting for the right partner to come along so that we can be properly classed. I mean I am with a male now so obviously I no longer hold any regard to the female sex. What a relief I can finally be straight.  As long as no one attempts to get to know me, and I don't come right out and tell them they can decide I'm whatever they want me to be. How nice for them. *seethes* Well back to the Witcher before I ragequit the internet. 

I take it all back man, if we are gonna use bisexuals as a way to fan pander and attempt not to offend anyone, instead of as the sexuality that they are, I want my Zevrans and Lelianas back. People who clearly state they will be with both sexes cause this "I don't want to make anyone have to be with someone who is fine with both sexes, you can let them be whatever you want them to be" crap is bull. 

Edit: I hate it when sites take out swears. It takes something from my posts.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 03 août 2012 - 05:06 .

[brushyourteeth]

DreGregoire wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Admittedly it feels odd (to me) that Anders would be open about Karl to a man but not a woman...but then he's not my character. If that's how Hepler says Anders responds to that situation, then that's how it is, and I'm happy if the dialogue differences were only motivated by in character reasons.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Anders not giving somebody the whole story feels spot on to me. The cagey little... hmmm... swear words are bad *winks*. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Anders has always seemed careful about what he shares and I don't see him being any different, even with somebody he loves because I think he is afraid of being rejected. I would think he would be even more careful with somebody he loves. It's just the way I see Anders, I'm not saying you're wrong.

But why would he share that info with a male Hawke but not a female one? If sexuality isn't a big deal in Thedas (like the writers have frequently claimed), then why does Anders hold back that info based on gender? Why would he be afraid of rejection from a female lover and not a male one?

The answer is, sadly, that the devs made this loophole to keep female players who have a distaste for m/m romance happy. And I think we're better than that.

Bottom line: you shouldn't be able to reinterpret someone else's sexuality. Not even in a videogame.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 03 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[Fox In The Box]

Fleshdress wrote...

Well thanks a ton for crushing all my arguments in support of bisexuality.  Here I was saying taking a bisexuality as a pick you own poison/whatever doesn't make you uncomfortable sexuality was insulting. Apparently the writers don't mind someone doing that with their characters and now I can't even... uhg. Whatever.

Giant effort put into including Homosexual/Lesbian romances and a giant finger to those of us that are bisexual, we apparently are not a sexuality, we're just waiting for the right partner to come along so that we can be properly classed. I mean I am with a male now so obviously I no longer hold any regard to the female sex. What a relief I can finally be straight.  As long as no one attempts to get to know me, and I don't come right out and tell them they can decide I'm whatever they want me to be. How nice for them. *seethes* Well back to the Witcher before I ragequit the internet. 

I take it all back man, if we are gonna use bisexuals as a way to fan pander and attempt not to offend anyone, instead of as the sexuality that they are, I want my Zevrans and Lelianas back. People who clearly state they will be with both sexes cause this "I don't want to make anyone have to be with someone who is fine with both sexes, you can let them be whatever you want them to be" **** is bull. 

Sorry, what?

First of all; I'm  a bisexual too. I never clearly state that I am bisexual unless someone asks me, and I never hit on other women unless I'm absolutely certain  they also like women. As such, since we live in a heterosexist society, I'm peceived by most people as straight. I don't see a problem with this being the case for most of the DA2 companions - what are they supposed to do, tattoo "I fancy both the lads and the lasses" onto their forehead?

Second of all, did you even read the whole quote? It is stated multiple times that they are written as queer from the start. and that there is no subjective sexuality, only subjective perceptions. Anders always has had a relationship with Karl, but if some players want to delude themselves into thinking that he's straight, that's their business. It doesn't change Anders' sexuality.

As for why Anders wouldn't reveal that to a female Hawke... that's something you'll have to ask Jennifer Hepler about. It struck me mostly as a way of testing the waters.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 03 août 2012 - 05:25 .

[Windninja47]

The characters are not all bisexual, their sexuality just changes depending on what gender Hawke is. I think this is a good thing. Think of it like this- A Merrill who is attracted to a male Hawke is not the same as a Merrill who is attracted to a female Hawke, they are different Merrills. As such, Merrill is not bi, but straight, it just so happens that in an alternate universe she is lesbian.

[Sealy]

Fox In The Box wrote...

First of all; I'm  a bisexual too. I never clearly state that I am bisexual unless someone asks me, and I never hit on other women unless I'm absolutely certain  they also like women. As such, since we live in a heterosexist society, I'm peceived by most people as straight. I don't see a problem with this being the case for most of the DA2 companions - what are they supposed to do, tattoo "I fancy both the lads and the lasses" onto their forehead?

 

Okay but see now we are talking about random encounters, do I care if joe blow walking down the street see's me holding a guys hand and assumes I am straight? Nope. Do I care if the person I am seeing hasn't heard from my lips that I am bisexual and therefore plods happily along calling me straight? Damn right I do.   

Second of all, did you even read the whole quote? It is stated multiple times that they are written as queer from the start. and that there is no subjective sexuality, only subjective perceptions. Anders always has had a relationship with Karl, but if some players want to delude themselves into thinking that he's straight, that's their business. It doesn't change Anders' sexuality.

 
Yah, which was nice, then it slams the whole thing into the ground by stating that if someone wants to see them as straight that it is perfectly fine. When it's not. If you are pretending that someone bisexual is straight it's because you don't like that other part of them, and it's literally a part of them, it isn't something that only comes up when I date a female, it comes up when I even think about an attractive female who passes me by. They are actually saying oh yah, backstory wise he is bi, but we won't bring it up in game as a conscious decision to allow you to create a straight character out of our bisexual one. Which isn't a player deluding themselves. Dating a bisexual person doesn't make you bisexual. So you are actually changing them because your turned off by part of who they are, and that isn't okay. It's a tad hurtful.
 
But okay, ignorance is bliss, so yah if you have never romanced Anders/Fenris/Merrill with same sex, you have no access to internet, don't read a guide, and live under a rock, I can probably forgive you for making the assumption that a character that never mentions their sexuality is whatever sexuality you want them to be. But we are arguing with people on this forum, and the chances of not playing the game ever as a male and therefore never even seeing those flirt options is rare. So these aren't people assuming or percieving a character as straight. It's people making the conscious choice to ignore the homosexual side of characters. That is what irks me, and is what Bioware should not be supporting.  

[DreGregoire]

brushyourteeth wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Anders not giving somebody the whole story feels spot on to me. The cagey little... hmmm... swear words are bad *winks*. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Anders has always seemed careful about what he shares and I don't see him being any different, even with somebody he loves because I think he is afraid of being rejected. I would think he would be even more careful with somebody he loves. It's just the way I see Anders, I'm not saying you're wrong.

But why would he share that info with a male Hawke but not a female one? If sexuality isn't a big deal in Thedas (like the writers have frequently claimed), then why does Anders hold back that info based on gender? Why would he be afraid of rejection from a female lover and not a male one?

Anders shares his relationship with a male Hawke to open the door for a relationship with male Hawke. He is essentially saying "I like you and I've been with men. How do you feel about that?" Anders tone of voice when he asks if it (him having a relationship with Karl) bothers male Hawke, to me, is a clear indication that he is concerned about rejection and/or prejudice. In my opinion, Anders doesn't share it with female Hawke because he doesn't think it's needed to establish a relationship with female Hawke. The devs saying that there are no societal problems with same sex relationships, does not mean that individuals that live in Thedas are all of the same mind. As far as I can tell there is no same sex marriage in Thedas, at least where I've been I haven't been exposed to it. I'm not sure that marriage is a necessary thing in Thedas anyways. And there are prejudices against same sex couples, because in DAII Uncle Amell makes some very prejudiced comments about male Hawke and any male relation he has.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[berelinde]

Gamlen makes rude remarks about *any* Hawke and *any* LI. It's part of his charm.

[Fox In The Box]

Fleshdress wrote...

Okay but see now we are talking about random encounters, do I care if joe blow walking down the street see's me holding a guys hand and assumes I am straight? Nope. Do I care if the person I am seeing hasn't heard from my lips that I am bisexual and therefore plods happily along calling me straight? Damn right I do.  

If this person says something that makes the assumption you're straight, I assume you would correct them. Since we never get to make an assumption like that in-game, the LI's never get to correct us. Perhaps such a mechanic ought to be implemented.

The problem I had with your comment it seems to make the assumption that one has to be out and loud in order to qualify as a proper bisexual. It's a headache I deal with every time someone starts a discussion about Kaidan's sexuality that involves the word "retconned".


 

  It's people making the conscious choice to ignore the homosexual side of characters. That is what irks me, and is what Bioware should not be supporting.  

See, that I agree with, and I certainly hope that wasn't how it was meant. David Gaider might have worded himself awkwardly. But to go from there to the "all the LI's are bisexual" approach in DA2 as inherently bad and that we should go back to the approach that favored heterosexual players over queer ones is something I object to.

[brushyourteeth]

Fleshdress wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

First of all; I'm  a bisexual too. I never clearly state that I am bisexual unless someone asks me, and I never hit on other women unless I'm absolutely certain  they also like women. As such, since we live in a heterosexist society, I'm peceived by most people as straight. I don't see a problem with this being the case for most of the DA2 companions - what are they supposed to do, tattoo "I fancy both the lads and the lasses" onto their forehead?

 

Okay but see now we are talking about random encounters, do I care if joe blow walking down the street see's me holding a guys hand and assumes I am straight? Nope. Do I care if the person I am seeing hasn't heard from my lips that I am bisexual and therefore plods happily along calling me straight? Damn right I do.   

Second of all, did you even read the whole quote? It is stated multiple times that they are written as queer from the start. and that there is no subjective sexuality, only subjective perceptions. Anders always has had a relationship with Karl, but if some players want to delude themselves into thinking that he's straight, that's their business. It doesn't change Anders' sexuality.

 
Yah, which was nice, then it slams the whole thing into the ground by stating that if someone wants to see them as straight that it is perfectly fine. When it's not. If you are pretending that someone bisexual is straight it's because you don't like that other part of them, and it's literally a part of them, it isn't something that only comes up when I date a female, it comes up when I even think about an attractive female who passes me by. They are actually saying oh yah, backstory wise he is bi, but we won't bring it up in game as a conscious decision to allow you to create a straight character out of our bisexual one. Which isn't a player deluding themselves. Dating a bisexual person doesn't make you bisexual. So you are actually changing them because your turned off by part of who they are, and that isn't okay. It's a tad hurtful.
 
But okay, ignorance is bliss, so yah if you have never romanced Anders/Fenris/Merrill with same sex, you have no access to internet, don't read a guide, and live under a rock, I can probably forgive you for making the assumption that a character that never mentions their sexuality is whatever sexuality you want them to be. But we are arguing with people on this forum, and the chances of not playing the game ever as a male and therefore never even seeing those flirt options is rare. So these aren't people assuming or percieving a character as straight. It's people making the conscious choice to ignore the homosexual side of characters. That is what irks me, and is what Bioware should not be supporting.  

I agree with every single thing you're saying here, FD. For what it's worth.

+1 

[DreGregoire]

Fleshdress wrote...

Do I care if the person I am seeing hasn't heard from my lips that I am bisexual and therefore plods happily along calling me straight? Damn right I do.   

You're making assumptions based on your own viewpoint. You don't know if Anders minds or not, that somebody assumes he's straight when he's not. And if he makes no effort to tell female Hawke that he had a thing with Karl, it would be my guess that he does not mind female Hawke or others assuming that he is straight.

That aside, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that there are no unviewed conversations between Hawke and Hawke's love interest, but given the time that passes I doubt we can say 100% what conversations occured over the years.

The Developers said that the LI's are what they are based on if you play a male of female and I think they still feel this way, but that is different than telling us that the initial writer imagine and wrote Anders as being Homosexual. It's two different things, in my mind.

[Sealy]

Fox In The Box wrote...

If this person says something that makes the assumption you're straight, I assume you would correct them. Since we never get to make an assumption like that in-game, the LI's never get to correct us. Perhaps such a mechanic ought to be implemented.

The problem I had with your comment it seems to make the assumption that one has to be out and loud in order to qualify as a proper bisexual. It's a headache I deal with every time someone starts a discussion about Kaidan's sexuality that involves the word "retconned".

Lol, no I don't think you should have to be out and loud, that would be hypocritical, which is why I was fine before seeing that line from Gaider, cause before then it was just they are bisexual, and it was just fans I had to argue with, it's harder to argue it when the people who created them say you can imagine them however you want. In that case I prefer they not use the term Bisexual, use... alternate reality companions.

See, that I agree with, and I certainly hope that wasn't how it was meant. David Gaider might have worded himself awkwardly. But to go from there to the "all the LI's are bisexual" approach in DA2 as inherently bad and that we should go back to the approach that favored heterosexual players over queer ones is something I object to.

Ahh I hope they don't go back to straight vs Bisexual characters, I just hope they are all bi in the sense that Zevran and Leliana were, where you had the option of bringing it up.