473 réponses à ce sujet

[Sealy]

DreGregoire wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

Do I care if the person I am seeing hasn't heard from my lips that I am bisexual and therefore plods happily along calling me straight? Damn right I do.   

You're making assumptions based on your own viewpoint. You don't know if Anders minds or not, that somebody assumes he's straight when he's not. And if he makes no effort to tell female Hawke that he had a thing with Karl, it would be my guess that he does not mind female Hawke or others assuming that he is straight.

That aside, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that there are no unviewed conversations between Hawke and Hawke's love interest, but given the time that passes I doubt we can say 100% what conversations occured over the years.

The Developers said that the LI's are what they are based on if you play a male of female and I think they still feel this way, but that is different than telling us that the initial writer imagine and wrote Anders as being Homosexual. It's two different things, in my mind.

You are correct he may not mind being assumed straight, My annoyance is because I mind bisexuality being used as a pick your preferance romance option for the player. In my opinion wether the player is straight or gay if you call your character bi, they should always be bi. Not whatever is striking the players fancy at the time... it's insulting to real bisexual people.

If their sexuality is going to change in according to the players prefereance then don't call them bi... call them two different companions.

[LobselVith8]

draken-heart wrote...

i think i said this once before, but i believe that Merrill might have had something more than just a student/teacher or mother/daughter relationship with Marethari, or Merrill could have been Asexual until hawke came around and swept her off her feet (especially in a rivalmance).

Marethari tends to act like an overbearing mother (and she raised Merrill since she was almost a baby, so I'd don't think the Keeper had any romantic interest in the child she raised as a surrogate mother), and Merrill is portrayed as something of an outsider even among her own people.

As for the potential romance with Hawke, being in Friendship makes it seem as though Merrill finally has a confidant on her side who believes in her, rather than another person who thinks they know better than Merrill. It is interesting that, with a male Hawke, Merrill makes a subtle reference to children (likely because of how the progeny of humans and elves are born as humans), which is missing in dialogue with a female Hawke she has a romantic interest in.

draken-heart wrote...

the same asexual argument can be true of Fenris.

Gaider said that Danarius forced himself on Fenris, so it's possible that Hawke was the first consensual partner who Fenris is able to have a real relationship with once he settles in Kirkwall (although he seems to have a mostly physical relationship with Isabela, if Hawke romances someone else).

[DreGregoire]

Fleshdress wrote...

You are correct he may not mind being assumed straight, My annoyance is because I mind bisexuality being used as a pick your preferance romance option for the player. In my opinion wether the player is straight or gay if you call your character bi, they should always be bi. Not whatever is striking the players fancy at the time... it's insulting to real bisexual people.

If their sexuality is going to change in according to the players prefereance then don't call them bi... call them two different companions.

I wasn't aware bioware had called them all bisexual. It's been a while since I remember seeing it, but my understanding was that the point the devs were trying to make (initially anyways) is that the character's are not all bi, but some are either straight or not based on the gender of Hawke. I think leaving out a conversation with female Hawke about Karl and Anders having a thing when they were in the tower was the devs effort to meet that idea.

It's my understanding that now it has been shared that the acutal writer of Anders saw him as gay, or wrote him as gay. Personally I too have always viewed Anders as gay from way back in Awakening. This doesn't change the fact that the developers may have said, "Sorry we need Anders to be straight when somebody is playing as a female."

I don't think making a decision to write less dialog and pay less people to voice act (limiting the number of characters that the devs have to spend time and man power on) is bioware making characters to purely strike a persons fancy. I think they made the love interests and then said, "Okay writers now make them romanceable by the opposite gender, because we are not making another four companions." Isabella is the exception of course she was always happy to be with whoever.

I would have been upset if I couldn't pick who I wanted to romance in DAII. As a matter of fact, my canon Hawke enjoyed every love interest aside from the chantry brother.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 août 2012 - 08:08 .

[Wrathion]

HiddenxHydra wrote...


I cited the easy lover achievement as *one* example of a character's ( lack of ) sexual preferences. I assumed that we had all played the games and could easily think of other examples. But, instead of clarifying anything, you've decided that my argument is nothing more than fodder for the "ignorant homophobe" bonfire. Which is exactly what the TC said he wished to avoid on page 1. Great job, way to further the discussion.

Never called you a homophobe. You sound real mad, brah.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I thought it was a good idea to leave the characters' sexuality open to interpretation. Even though Leliana is officially bisexual that wasn't my interpretation. The only past relationship she mentions is with a woman and although she talks about seducing men it is only as part of her work as a bard, she doesn't actually care about them. In DA2 I have different interpretations for different playthroughs, just adds to the replay-ability for me. So I can't change Hawke's background, at least she can shag everyone, okay maybe that's not as good as being rich/poor, dwarf/elf, etc. If nothing else the "all bisexual" companions gave LadyHawke the ability to romance Merrill which makes it a success in my book.

What I will say though is that I hadn't considered that bisexual people might find the changeable sexuality thing offensive. Bisexual people do tend to get the short end of the stick when it comes to being represented in games/tv/film. Maybe its because the one thing gay and straight people can agree on is that bisexual people are all a bunch of greedy slags who will shag anything that moves (just kidding, we're all just jealous really because our stupid brains restrict who we're attracted to by something as trivial as gender).

The Uncanny wrote...

Yes. I'd be happy to see more done with stats. I love the implementation in Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines for instance. They have real impact on your game and your character.

It's great... one of my all time favourites! It's much closer to something like Deus Ex than, say, Mass Effect, though.

On topic: it would be interesting to see what BW would have done with Velvet Velour and Jeanette.

Amazing game, not finished it yet though, my stupid computer died and took with it my save files. The Malkavian clan was really well done, her dialogue choices are mostly the same as for the other clans e.g. "Can I you a question?" but a Malkavian will word it differently e.g. "May I probe your grey matter?"

I think Bioware could do a fab game based on Vampire the Masquerade. Adding a bit of extra character interaction and improving the combat maybe. And definitely more Jeanette, who knew crazy could be so sexy?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DreGregoire wrote...

Anders not giving somebody the whole story feels spot on to me. The cagey little... hmmm... swear words are bad *winks*. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Anders has always seemed careful about what he shares and I don't see him being any different, even with somebody he loves because I think he is afraid of being rejected. I would think he would be even more careful with somebody he loves.

Well, that'd be more convincing if he hadn't just met Hawke, and this conversation hadn't followed directly on the heels of Karl being killed. It seemed a bit sudden for Anders to be thinking of romance straight after the death of his first male lover, but I can't pretend to know what makes him tick. Plus I have more issues with Anders' dialogue and character than this particular bit of it.

It's just the way I see Anders, I'm not saying you're wrong.

No worries. Everyone has opinions on these things.

[labargegrrrl]

Modifié par labargegrrrl, 05 août 2012 - 06:18 .

[labargegrrrl]

Fleshdress wrote...

You are correct he may not mind being assumed straight, My annoyance is because I mind bisexuality being used as a pick your preferance romance option for the player. In my opinion wether the player is straight or gay if you call your character bi, they should always be bi. Not whatever is striking the players fancy at the time... it's insulting to real bisexual people.

that's actually a fair point.  i don't agree completely, but there ARE those out there that want to use or abuse bisexuality for their own ulterior motives.  personally i felt like bisexuality in DA2 was done more in the spirit of inclusion than expoitation.  IF bioware sticks with the all/mostly bi route in LI's again, then they need to keep that.

[nightscrawl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider said that Danarius forced himself on Fenris...

Source please.

DG seems to love being vague about a number of issues. And if not that, seems content to let the player read whatever he or she likes in a particular line of dialogue to fit their own narrative. While I think this is true based on the presentation in the game, you should not cite a reference without a source.

[Fox In The Box]

nightscrawl wrote...

Source please.

DG seems to love being vague about a number of issues. And if not that, seems content to let the player read whatever he or she likes in a particular line of dialogue to fit their own narrative. While I think this is true based on the presentation in the game, you should not cite a reference without a source.

Here is one source.

Relevant quote;

- Did you get the sense that Danarius had a really sketchy (*cough* intimate *cough*) relationship with Fenris? Yeah, you weren’t exactly wrong…. :/

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 05 août 2012 - 09:29 .

[nightscrawl]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Here is one source.

Relevant quote;

- Did you get the sense that Danarius had a really sketchy (*cough* intimate *cough*) relationship with Fenris? Yeah, you weren’t exactly wrong…. :/

Fun stuff in that post, thanks.

[Cerah]

Well, to be honest, I liked the variety it gave me - I
liked to have the option between two female love interests for my fem!Hawke.
Frankly, Isabela, for example, isn't exactly "my type," so I
always had the option of Merrill. Where as in Oirgins, the only
female/female option I had was Leliana; which worked well for me I guess,
but diversity tends to be a pretty beautiful thing. I guess having nearly all
bisexual companions isn't too terribly realistic, but considering I'm bisexual
and most of my friends are... ironically bisexual as well, it just doesn't seem
nearly as uncommon to me as it does to other people, I suppose.



And honestly? Even if some of the characters where male-specific in DA2,
I probably wouldn't have made a male character just to romance them... though
this has more to do with the fact that the male Hawke's voice really isn't my
cup of tea.



The only thing that really bothered me was when companions' sexualities seemed
to "flipflop" - For example, with Anders... he never gave any
indication that he was attracted to the same sex (he seemed pretty enthusiastic
for woman), so I was kind of suprised they made him bisexual in DA2,
but... I was even more surprised to find out that, if you play as a male
Hawke, Anders is pretty much gay, with Karl being his "first."
Likewise, for a fem!Hawke, Karl is never mentioned romantically, and Anders
seems to straight.

With Merrill and Fenris, they never seemed to... be too "verbal" (for
lack of better words?) with their preferences, I suppose? I mean, in my head,
with my Dalish Mahariel, I have a little fannon where Merrill was in love
with my warden, but since she knew Mahariel was in love with Tamlen, she never
told her how she felt. (Plus, I'd imagine the Dalish themselves are probably
not the most keen on same-sex relationships as it is...)



What I do like is when the sexuality ..."sticks" more to the
character: Isabela, Zevran, and Leliana are all pretty good examples
of this. Isabela is... pretty obviously bisexual, and once you learn more about
Leliana, her past relationships are explored pretty well, I think. And then you
also have Zevran, which you can learn about many of his sexual conquests, how
bisexuality is viewed in the Antivan Crows, ect.



In the back of my head though, I feel that the fact they made nearly all
of the companions in DA2 bisexual was why they didn't make Varric a
romance companion, though - otherwise, he could have been the only straight
companion in the base game. (Least idk I'm pretty sure Varric is straight. )
And then there is the fact Varric is telling the story, but... that's besides the point, okay.

Modifié par Cerah, 14 août 2012 - 04:28 .

[EricHVela]

One of my favorite things in ME3 (there are some, yes) was when broShep hit on Traynor. It was awesome.

When femShep hit on Vega (calling him on his #@*$!&%), that was cute.

Some characters need to be unavailable just for entertainment purposes: one of them being simply that they don't swing that way.

[Xilizhra]

ReggarBlane wrote...

One of my favorite things in ME3 (there are some, yes) was when broShep hit on Traynor. It was awesome.

When femShep hit on Vega (calling him on his #@*$!&%), that was cute.

Some characters need to be unavailable just for entertainment purposes: one of them being simply that they don't swing that way.

They can be unavailable for other reasons, if you want.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

One of my favorite things in ME3 (there are some, yes) was when broShep hit on Traynor. It was awesome.

When femShep hit on Vega (calling him on his #@*$!&%), that was cute.

Some characters need to be unavailable just for entertainment purposes: one of them being simply that they don't swing that way.

They can be unavailable for other reasons, if you want.

Shepard's reaction to her being homosexual instead of bisexual (or hetero if he was that clueless) was priceless. If Traynor was bisexual, it would never have happened. If she was simply unavailable, it wouldn't have been remotely as funny. Shepard's arrogance deflating in a matter of seconds into embarrassment. Awesome.

(I think an evil femShep should have tried to "sway" Cortez regardless -- and fail miserably, of course.)

The best part, there was no wishy-washy flip-flopping of them between different playthroughs.

Again realistically, writers should expect players to metagame if the game is worth playing several times in different ways. Most players cannot just forget that they played the game before if the game is worth remembering.

[Xilizhra]

It was put in due to the unfortunate circumstance of not being able to fit in everyone as bisexual when Bioware had pulled its head out of its ass so late in the series. The one joke isn't nearly worth the cost of being unable to romance, say, Jack or Garrus as your preferred gender.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

It was put in due to the unfortunate circumstance of not being able to fit in everyone as bisexual when Bioware had pulled its head out of its ass so late in the series. The one joke isn't nearly worth the cost of being unable to romance, say, Jack or Garrus as your preferred gender.

Depends on which is more important to you I guess.

I prefer the opportunity to get turned down for the sake of defined characters over options to romance anyone and everyone just to be able to romance anyone and everyone. That "one joke" was enough to break the monotony, throw a curveball into the mix.

That's more important to me than seeing two characters kiss.

[Xilizhra]

You can always be turned down by non-LIs.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can always be turned down by non-LIs.

And ME3 shows that we can be turned down by LIs because of the individual character's ... characteristics. I would prefer to explore that. I think it adds something to the story when we can't always have what we want because of who they are and who we are.

Heck. The player can turn down LI's. It's only fair to return the favor.

[Xilizhra]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can always be turned down by non-LIs.

And ME3 shows that we can be turned down by LIs because of the individual character's ... characteristics. I would prefer to explore that. I think it adds something to the story when we can't always have what we want because of who they are and who we are.

Heck. The player can turn down LI's. It's only fair to return the favor.

I don't. I believe it leads to more undue frustration, and absolutely nothing is added to the story. Only possibilities stolen.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can always be turned down by non-LIs.

And ME3 shows that we can be turned down by LIs because of the individual character's ... characteristics. I would prefer to explore that. I think it adds something to the story when we can't always have what we want because of who they are and who we are.

Heck. The player can turn down LI's. It's only fair to return the favor.

I don't. I believe it leads to more undue frustration, and absolutely nothing is added to the story. Only possibilities stolen.

Frustration is part of the story, of relationships, too. Frustration adds to the story or else they wouldn't have those moments ever -- of which there are many. Those opportunities for experience it is lost. It's jarring to suddenly have any relationship one wants with all companions when they're denied other things.

You don't seem to realize that demanding specific "possibilities" equally deny other opportunities. One seems to be more realistic. The other seems to be more pandering.

How does the protagonist seem to attract nearly every bisexual LI? The game was rampant with heterosexual (and some homosexual) characters, but Hawke managed to find all bisexual LI companions (until the not-quite-LI DLC). That statistics are a little skewed. It doesn't seem sincere. It seems like it was done just for the sake of players getting to see whoever they wanted kiss their champion. That's pandering.

If the game takes place in Orlais or Rivain, I can see it happening where the protagonist finds mostly bisexual companions but not when Kirkwall was flooded with Ferelden refugees. It simply seemed out-of-place.

What you call "possibilities stolen" are opportunities to explore something. You'd rather steal those opportunities just to see any LI kiss the protagonist? That's when the story has lost something.

[Xilizhra]

It is not "pandering." None of the statistical clusterings for Bioware protagonists are ever likely in the slightest, and in any case, all of them will romance you regardless of appearance, attitude or morality so long as you're sufficiently flirty. In DAO, regardless of race as well. Such has been deemed to be acceptable breaks from reality to allow for the maximum possibility of stories to tell in regards to different protagonists finding whom they love most; cutting it off at sexual orientation is wholly arbitrary and basically worthless. It's no more pandering than this restriction would be pandering to you people.

Also, you're being incredibly dismissive of romance in general. I would likely have not enjoyed the game nearly as much as I did if I was denied a chance to romance Merrill. So yes, I believe those passionate about certain LIs, and there are always for everyone, will gain far more net enjoyment out of having everyone be bisexual than your mild pleasure over certain restrictions.

[Windninja47]

The characters aren't bisexual, they are herosexual.

I'd be fine with some only straight characters as long as there were also only gay characters for those inclined. So a total of six, M/F straight, M/F Bi, M/F Gay. Otherwise, four characters romance-able by any gender is fine by me.

[Fiacre]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is not "pandering." None of the statistical clusterings for Bioware protagonists are ever likely in the slightest, and in any case, all of them will romance you regardless of appearance, attitude or morality so long as you're sufficiently flirty. In DAO, regardless of race as well. Such has been deemed to be acceptable breaks from reality to allow for the maximum possibility of stories to tell in regards to different protagonists finding whom they love most; cutting it off at sexual orientation is wholly arbitrary and basically worthless. It's no more pandering than this restriction would be pandering to you people.

Also, you're being incredibly dismissive of romance in general. I would likely have not enjoyed the game nearly as much as I did if I was denied a chance to romance Merrill. So yes, I believe those passionate about certain LIs, and there are always for everyone, will gain far more net enjoyment out of having everyone be bisexual than your mild pleasure over certain restrictions.

I very much agree with this.

There are people -- and from what I've seen quite a lot of people -- for whom romances are an important part of the game and for whom romancing their preferred LI is a very important part of the experience.

And I really, *really* disagree with the notion that someone should be forced to play as a certain sex to do so or have to deal with being unable to access certain content if they continue playing as their preferred sex. I'm not against differences depending on which sex you play as, but considering that the romances are (or can be) a substantial part of the game, they shouldn't be completely unavailable.

Honestly, had, say, Fenris been straight, I *might* have watched his romance on youtube, but I certainly wouldn't have made a femHawke just to romance him, let alone two to try out both the friend- and the rivalmance. (And I do occassionally play female characters, though rarely in RPGs.)

Really, gender is a complicated issue enough that a game -- one that lets you choose your character's sex -- shouldn't force you to play a certain one just so you can unlock the content you want. What's the point in giving you a "choice" then, anway? That alone is reason for me to want all LI's to be bi; it's not even so much about having my sexuality represented (though that is somewhat nice).

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is not "pandering." None of the statistical clusterings for Bioware protagonists are ever likely in the slightest, and in any case, all of them will romance you regardless of appearance, attitude or morality so long as you're sufficiently flirty. In DAO, regardless of race as well. Such has been deemed to be acceptable breaks from reality to allow for the maximum possibility of stories to tell in regards to different protagonists finding whom they love most; cutting it off at sexual orientation is wholly arbitrary and basically worthless. It's no more pandering than this restriction would be pandering to you people.

Also, you're being incredibly dismissive of romance in general. I would likely have not enjoyed the game nearly as much as I did if I was denied a chance to romance Merrill. So yes, I believe those passionate about certain LIs, and there are always for everyone, will gain far more net enjoyment out of having everyone be bisexual than your mild pleasure over certain restrictions.

I agree, unless they are going to start limiting romances by appearance, race, morality, etc it seems silly to limit them by gender. Merrill's my favourite character in DA2, I'd have been disappointed that I'd have missed out on Merrill content while someone playing ManHawke could spend the entire game patronising her and still get to romance her (I didn't like Merrill rivalmance).

Thing is, if you don't romance a character in DA2 you miss out on a lot of information about that character. For example, if Hawke doesn't sleep with Isabela she never finds out that Isabela was once married. Aveline is a fab character, you get to find out loads about her and even get the chance to flirt with her. If LIs had friendship arcs comparable to that I wouldn't feel so much like I was missing out by not romancing them.

With the romances something has to give, either realism or choice. For me, one of the main reasons I play rpgs is for the customisation, getting to choose the protagonists class, gender, clothing, etc (hell that's why I liked Saints Row 2 and 3 so much as well). Not that I necessarily deviate much in the choices I make (for my first playthrough anyway). If I look at the characters I've made on rpgs almost all of them are female anti-heroes, most of them are thieves and many of them are gay. But that's just my favourite type of protagonist and its a nice change from the usual straight male warrior/soldier who's built like a brick wall. I think its really cool that the protagonist can be gay and hats off to Bioware for giving me that choice, I mean I'm not going to be seeing an action film any time soon where the hero is a lesbian. So for me DA2 was ideal, Hawke could be a lesbian and there was a choice of two female LIs. Similarly ME3 was great for lesbian Shep but not so good for straight FemShep.