473 réponses à ce sujet

[Crimson Moon]

Bioware has a habit of favoring heterosexual relationship, so I would prefer how they do things in Dragon Age 2. Star Wars Republics has been released for a while and there has been no talk about gay relationship yet. Dragon Age Orgins, Alistair is a strong principle character but only available to straight relationship. Gaymers have to settle for Zevran, a ****ty elf who will sleep with anyone. In Mass Effect, they cut out Kaidan's same-sex romance due to pressure. On the other hand, Liara is available to lesbian relationship (yes, I consider Liara as a lesbian relationship because she looks like a chick. If they said Garrus is a chick, I doubt people would believe it). Mass Effect 3 finally allows gaymers to romance Kaidan, but it kinda ruins the experience for people like me who want to start a long term relationship with Kaidan from the start. Regardless of what Bioware may say, they do aim trying to not offend straight gamers at the expense of their gay customers. Dragon Age and Mass Effect are about storytelling. I like to be able to choose the relationship I want without having to play as the opposite gender. I romance Anders in my first playthrough while choosing Isabela for my second playthrough. It gives me the freedom to choose how I progress my game.

[Parmida]

I really like it that everyone was BI actually, cause you can have your beloved companion love you no matter what gender you play.
And come on it's a game afterall the kind that you throw fireballs at people's faces, there is nothing real about a game I don't get it when people talk about immersion in a fantasy world.
if you don't want to romance someone you simply choose not to, no big deal.
I don't want to have to drool over one of my companions simply because of immersion and the gender that I like to play (I play male), immersion be damned gimme what I like!

[Dwarva]

Something I don't understand though is the 'this is a fantasy universe, does it need to be realistic' argument.

Well. Yes. Some aspects of it still need to be realistic IMO. Those are the things that make the game relatable.

If Fenris suddenly became a magelover with no explanation whatsoever, people would say it was unrealistic. If you had the ability to romance every single LI at the same time and no one ever mentioned it, people would say it was unrealistic. If you had the ability to change from a mage to a rogue midgame, people would say it was unrealistic. There's only so much suspension of belief your average person can achieve.

This is only in part a response to the bi issue to be honest. It goes for every time someone says a fantasy world doesn't need to be realistic. Some aspects of it need to be - I feel quite strongly about that. If you don't have an element of realism people could just be shunted about at the drop of a hat and the whole thing wouldn't be in any way true.

[Parmida]

I don't mean big and stupid changes like those, but little things like this argument are allowed cause your companions are either straight or homosexual in your playthroughs.
If you play a female Hawke you never hear even one gay line from Fenris or Anders which makes them straight in another persons game they can be both gay for that game and be open options for male Hawke and everyone's happy.
Isn't that good enough to see?

[Dwarva]

NM...

Modifié par Staarbux, 29 août 2012 - 12:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Staarbux wrote...

Something I don't understand though is the 'this is a fantasy universe, does it need to be realistic' argument.

Well. Yes. Some aspects of it still need to be realistic IMO. Those are the things that make the game relatable.

If Fenris suddenly became a magelover with no explanation whatsoever, people would say it was unrealistic. If you had the ability to romance every single LI at the same time and no one ever mentioned it, people would say it was unrealistic. If you had the ability to change from a mage to a rogue midgame, people would say it was unrealistic. There's only so much suspension of belief your average person can achieve.

This is only in part a response to the bi issue to be honest. It goes for every time someone says a fantasy world doesn't need to be realistic. Some aspects of it need to be - I feel quite strongly about that. If you don't have an element of realism people could just be shunted about at the drop of a hat and the whole thing wouldn't be in any way true.

Lis to begin with are pretty damn unrealistic. You get a solid enduring relationship with a fighting companion and they never cheat on you or stray? (Save Isabela. And even she can be talked out of it) Really? That's not realistic. Themn being available in the first place is often not realistic. Then them being interested in your PC (opposite gender or no) can often times be unrealistic. If it's just a bit more unrealism to add more options for players that would enjoy them I don't see it as an issue and it boggles me that other people make a big deal out of it. It's not like you're forced to romance someone with a s/s PC.

Only time I understand complaints is when the NPC hits on your PC first. And that bugs me no matter o/s or s/s so yeah I'd just as soon have that completely taken out. Not realistic no but more convienent.

[Amirit]

Staarbux wrote...
Well. Yes. Some aspects of it still need to be realistic IMO. Those are the things that make the game relatable.

Not arguing with you here, in fact, I am 100% agree. But the problem here is for different people different things means to be realistic. Like for Ryzaki  here not cheating on your patner is something unrealistic. 

Can not say I like BW solution to this problem - allowing everything. 

Modifié par Amirit, 01 septembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Ryzaki]

I didn't say not cheating was unrealistic. Plenty of people don't cheat. But...plenty of people DO cheat.

Rather the fact that none of the LIs in BW games cheat on you is unrealistic (and when they finally have someone cheat (spoilers for the name) it's the one character it's completely OOC for (and coincidently happens to be the least popular male LI). The mind boggles).

I just don't get the demands for realism about them being restricted to one gender...when they're already pretty dang unrealistic even with gender restrictions.

Also I hated BG's romances. Everytime someone lauds them I shiver. All I got was a bunch of crazy chicks ninjaing the heck out of me ([even when I was trying to cheer her up about her husband that not only did my PC know but he also died like...at the beginning of the quest! ZERO friendship paths because lo behold I be the opposite gender [or even the same gender tbh] and want to be friends. Nuh-uh. Not allowed!) unless I was a grade A douche and a jerkwad dude that I wanted to kick in the face. Also straight guys got 3 options and straight chicks got...one. And no s/s options to speak off.

Ugh. I'll be glad if we never do that crap again.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Amirit]

Ryzaki wrote...

I didn't say not cheating was unrealistic. Plenty of people don't cheat. But...plenty of people DO cheat.

Rather the fact that none of the LIs in BW games cheat on you is unrealistic (and when they finally have someone cheat (spoilers for the name) it's the one character it's completely OOC for (and coincidently happens to be the least popular male LI). The mind boggles).

I just don't get the demands for realism about them being restricted to one gender...when they're already pretty dang unrealistic even with gender restrictions.

This is exactly my point: facts like everyone you meat is bisexual or every authorities ignoring your obvious crimes, or something as simple as when little girls can easy outfight monsters 10 times bigger then they are - you take as normal, realistic and so on. 
But things from our very reality like not cheating on those you love or be approached by strangers who find you irresistibly attractive before you openly told them "I want you" - you find unnatural and unrealistic. 
To me it's a totally broken logic, but you see some sense in your sayings. And how BW are supposed to predict what others find "unrealistic" in this situation?

[Fiacre]

Not everyone you meet is bisexual, your LIs are bisexual. And they can have realism in other places, like how those relationships play out -- I'm all for things like Fenris breaking up with you because you made Orana your slave or because you became a bloodmage or Merrill breaking up with you because you refused to give her the arulin'holm and similar things, but I don't see why anyone should be forced to play a character of a certain gender just to romance their favourite. It's not like the game actually allows you to explore gender identity, so it may as well leave it up to you which sex and gender and sexuality you choose for your character and let you romance the LI you actually want to romance, not the one that happens to be there for your characters sex and sexuality.

[Amirit]

Fiacre wrote...

Not everyone you meet is bisexual, your LIs are bisexual. And they can have realism in other places,

 

If 2/3 of your companions are bi it is safe to assume, this is something normal in that univers. In fact, straight people are minority there (you can flirt with NPC of any sex as well). But this is not the point, all I am saying is - for you this is not unrealistic or such a minor stretch that "they can have realism in other places". But when you go to these "other places" it is something that others would like to see "stretched over a little , a bit unrealistic" and would in turn recommend to you to find realism in another place. 

In asian on-line games they do not care for any sence of reality. And it works! You can fly, wearing jeans under medieval dresses and killing dragons with a chainsaw or a glowing carrot. And it's Ok. Thousands of people love it. The question is, where to stop when we talk about DA world. And whether we have to stop or not.

Modifié par Amirit, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Spedfrom]

As a gay man, I roleplay my male mages as gay men as well. When I played DA:O I was in love with Alistair and kept hoping that I would eventually be able to romance him. Yes, I flirted with Zevran to the point where he wanted to have sex, but I refused, because I felt I would be betraying Alistair.

Eventually I understood that I wouldn't ever be Alistair's lover which never stopped me from always rooting for him to be king, taking every change I could to boost his self-confidence and self-esteem. He was/is a great character because he is very relatable. He's humble, silly and funny, good-hearted and an underdog for all intents and purposes. I loved him and the fact that he was restricted to different sex romances eventually added to how relatable my feelings for him were, because as many gay men would tell you, some of us start by felling in love in real life with straight men, something that never turns into a relationship, but doesn't stop you from have those feelings, until you simply decide you want more for yourself.

So yes, I support making LIs either hetero or homosexual (bisexual characters is fine too, but don't make them all bi). Because to me it adds to how relatable the world and the characters themselves are. And it was partly responsible for making my DA:O experience so significant.

[Ryzaki]

Amirit wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I didn't say not cheating was unrealistic. Plenty of people don't cheat. But...plenty of people DO cheat.

Rather the fact that none of the LIs in BW games cheat on you is unrealistic (and when they finally have someone cheat (spoilers for the name) it's the one character it's completely OOC for (and coincidently happens to be the least popular male LI). The mind boggles).

I just don't get the demands for realism about them being restricted to one gender...when they're already pretty dang unrealistic even with gender restrictions.

This is exactly my point: facts like everyone you meat is bisexual or every authorities ignoring your obvious crimes, or something as simple as when little girls can easy outfight monsters 10 times bigger then they are - you take as normal, realistic and so on. 
But things from our very reality like not cheating on those you love or be approached by strangers who find you irresistibly attractive before you openly told them "I want you" - you find unnatural and unrealistic. 
To me it's a totally broken logic, but you see some sense in your sayings. And how BW are supposed to predict what others find "unrealistic" in this situation?

Wrong. everyone you meet isn't bisexual not even close. And yeah authorities ignore obvious crimes. In both games it was somewhat justifified. In DAO you were a GW and no one really had time to prosecute people over petty crap and in DA2 you're already a criminal to begin with. Not to mention in DAO the only bisexuals you saw were prostitutes and people from outside Fereldan.

So not seeing all this broken logic.

They're not. There's no way of knowing.

If all bi LIs make you think OMG the DA world is in danger of being utterly ridculous. Well I guess that's just your line. I think it's a silly line considering it's a whooping 4 main characters (and everyone else is either someone from another country or a prostitute) so yeah...not seeing the big deal. *shrugs* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I think perhaps that for some people sexuality is a very big defining trait. For these people, Fenris being gay in one play through and straight in another bothers them. And for those of us who are confused by their annoyance over the whole "make all LIs available to both genders" thing, we just don't think that sexuality is all that important in defining a person.

[Ryzaki]

That would explain it. *shrugs* guess we just can't be reconciled then.

[Fiacre]

motomotogirl wrote...

I think perhaps that for some people sexuality is a very big defining trait. For these people, Fenris being gay in one play through and straight in another bothers them. And for those of us who are confused by their annoyance over the whole "make all LIs available to both genders" thing, we just don't think that sexuality is all that important in defining a person.

I do find them changing sexualioty pretty silly and I do find sexuality to be a big deal -- though not a defining trait, and even less so ins Thedas were it's supposedly more accepted and people don't get beaten to death for liking someone of the same sex.

I also think they don't have to explicitly show interest in both sexes regardless of your character's sex and if you romance them or not. Unromanced Fenris can still like both sexes even if we only see show interest in a woman -- he's not the type to go around and point at random people and tell us how attractive they are. Anders and Merrill don't show interest in anyone if  you don't romance them, IIRC, apart from Anders telling male Hawke about Karl (after checking if male Hawke was uncomfortable with same sex relationships, too), I've never understood the reasoning that if they don't show they're interested in the same sex if you romance them with acharacter of theopposite sex / don't romance them. I'm bisexual, no one who knows me actually knows about that if I don't explicitly tell them.

[Todd23]

I don't understand why some people say things like: "In this play through, my character is a male so Fenris is gay, not bi." If you never met with his sister at The Hanged Man. Does that mean he really didn't choose to get the lyrium burned in his skin? They're all bi, every play-through. Just accept it. Your control over other characters are limited to your character's actions. Not even that, as Bioware has shown us with characters like Anders.

[Ryzaki]

It's interpretation. Yes people's interpretations of characters can vary based off their playthrough. some so Morrigan as a sister character to their wardens. I saw her as a manipulative harpy. Both interpretations are valid and based off interactions in game with the character.

[jillabender]

Personally, I hope that Bioware will continue to make companion characters who are romanceable by characters of any gender. I really don't see why the fact that a companion character is romanceable by characters of any gender should be seen as a problem.

The way I see it, unless a character explicitly states his or her sexual orientation, I as the player simply don't know.

The mere fact that a character expresses attraction to another character of a certain gender doesn't dictate that I have to assume anything about that character's sexual orientation. At the most, it might tell me that a character isn't exclusively attracted to people of only one gender – it doesn't necessarily tell me whether that character considers himself or herself to be gay or bisexual.

For example, I could interpret Anders as being gay with some straight tendencies, straight with some gay tendencies, or as attracted to men and women in approximately equal measure. As far as I know, there's nothing in the games that falsifies any of those interpretations. And if I were to romance Anders with a female Hawke, I could easily imagine – if I wished – that she assumes that Anders is straight, because there's nothing in his interactions with a female Hawke to suggest otherwise.

So, as the player, I can choose to imagine that my character's love interest has stated his or her sexual orientation to my character – or I can decide that my character doesn't need to know. 

I disagree with the idea that having love interests who are romanceable by characters of any gender is somehow "unrealistic." In real life, there are many people who aren't exclusively attracted to people of only one gender. In real life, I don't assume that everyone I meet is straight, and I don't know who someone is attracted to unless they tell me – and I don't see why the world of Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, should be any different.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Ryzaki, that's not 'interpretation'. The difference between your examples is that different people take actions and words differently, and so yes, two people might have different opinions of Morrigan. But someone's sexuality is not determined by your perception of it. You may THINK someone is a certain sexuality because of what you've percieved, but that doesn't mean they are. The reality is that the bisexual LIs can be attracted to people of both sexes, which makes them bi, regardless of perception.

Yes, someone's Hawke might interpret their LI as gay or straight - but that doesn't make the character that sexuality. Someone who states that Fenris is gay for their male Hawke, or straight for their female Hawke, is taking an interpretation and trying to turn it into fact.

I can watch people going past on the sidewalk, and "interpret," from the fact that a man and a woman are holding hands, that they're straight, but that doesn't mean they are. They could be bi, or they could both be gay and just good friends who hold hands. Trying to say that in MY version of the world, they are straight, would be insulting - it would be denying who they are based on my "interpretation." And that's what's wrong with people saying LIs are gay or straight.

And sure, the characters are characters and won't care, but there are plenty of real-life bisexual people around, who get that kind of **** in real life all the time. "Oh, you have a boyfriend? So you're straight/gay now?" "When did you get a girlfriend? Did you decide go straight/lesbian?" Etc. And when we have to see people doing the same thing to characters we care about and maybe see a bit of ourselves in, it causes the same anger, hurt, and frustration.

[jillabender]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ryzaki, that's not 'interpretation'. The difference between your examples is that different people take actions and words differently, and so yes, two people might have different opinions of Morrigan. But someone's sexuality is not determined by your perception of it. You may THINK someone is a certain sexuality because of what you've percieved, but that doesn't mean they are. The reality is that the bisexual LIs can be attracted to people of both sexes, which makes them bi, regardless of perception.

Yes, someone's Hawke might interpret their LI as gay or straight - but that doesn't make the character that sexuality. Someone who states that Fenris is gay for their male Hawke, or straight for their female Hawke, is taking an interpretation and trying to turn it into fact.

I can watch people going past on the sidewalk, and "interpret," from the fact that a man and a woman are holding hands, that they're straight, but that doesn't mean they are. They could be bi, or they could both be gay and just good friends who hold hands. Trying to say that in MY version of the world, they are straight, would be insulting - it would be denying who they are based on my "interpretation." And that's what's wrong with people saying LIs are gay or straight.

And sure, the characters are characters and won't care, but there are plenty of real-life bisexual people around, who get that kind of **** in real life all the time. "Oh, you have a boyfriend? So you're straight/gay now?" "When did you get a girlfriend? Did you decide go straight/lesbian?" Etc. And when we have to see people doing the same thing to characters we care about and maybe see a bit of ourselves in, it causes the same anger, hurt, and frustration.

I can definitely understand that.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I definitely didn't mean to imply that a character's sexuality is dependent on a player's perception.

All I meant was that when I meet people in real life who seem to be attracted to people of both genders, I don't assume that they identify as bisexual, because they might describe their sexuality differently. So I don't make that assumption about fictional characters either.

I have a good friend who considered herself a lesbian, but who fell in love with a man. They're still together, and she doesn't consider her sexuality to have changed – when asked about it, she shrugged and said "it's one of those 99.9% things." Most of the time, she doesn't feel the need to label her sexuality, but I've heard her describe her sexuality as "bent."

In real life, I could ask Anders, for example, whether he considers himself bisexual, but in the game, I can't. That's why I say that I as the player simply don't know whether certain Dragon Age characters identify as bisexual – all I know for sure is that they're not exclusively attracted to people of one gender. And I'm fine with that.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Ryzaki]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ryzaki, that's not 'interpretation'. The difference between your examples is that different people take actions and words differently, and so yes, two people might have different opinions of Morrigan. But someone's sexuality is not determined by your perception of it. You may THINK someone is a certain sexuality because of what you've percieved, but that doesn't mean they are. The reality is that the bisexual LIs can be attracted to people of both sexes, which makes them bi, regardless of perception.

Yes, someone's Hawke might interpret their LI as gay or straight - but that doesn't make the character that sexuality. Someone who states that Fenris is gay for their male Hawke, or straight for their female Hawke, is taking an interpretation and trying to turn it into fact.

I can watch people going past on the sidewalk, and "interpret," from the fact that a man and a woman are holding hands, that they're straight, but that doesn't mean they are. They could be bi, or they could both be gay and just good friends who hold hands. Trying to say that in MY version of the world, they are straight, would be insulting - it would be denying who they are based on my "interpretation." And that's what's wrong with people saying LIs are gay or straight.

And sure, the characters are characters and won't care, but there are plenty of real-life bisexual people around, who get that kind of **** in real life all the time. "Oh, you have a boyfriend? So you're straight/gay now?" "When did you get a girlfriend? Did you decide go straight/lesbian?" Etc. And when we have to see people doing the same thing to characters we care about and maybe see a bit of ourselves in, it causes the same anger, hurt, and frustration.

Not really. You can have it so Morrigan onpenly dispises your PC. That's a far cry from seeing same events differently. She has a completely different relationship with the PC. That's just fact. It is not the same relationship she has with a high approval PC. As a result we get two different viewpoints of the same character.

Someone's sexuality isn't changed by your interpretation of it that's true. But this is a video game. Interpretation is all you really have to go on. The characters can't tell you everything. So yes maybe Fenris is still bi in all games. Or maybe in the game he romances a male Hawke but Hawke's the exception. That's what I mean by interpretation. This isn't RL where I can't change events and he can clearly correct me if I'm wrong. 

As for "that's what's wrong" maybe to you. I don't care what people's other gameworlds are as long as they don't intervene in mine. So someone saying they see X as straight in their playthrough doesn't bother me at all. So no I don't really see the wrong. As for real life of course that's agitating. They're real people plus I'm a large advocate of mind your own business and no assumptions in RL and yes they're characters as for anger hurt and frustration...I can't say I really feel for you getting agitated over someone's interpretation of a video game character. *shrugs* It's just not something I see worth even caring about much less getting upset over. Waste of time and effort.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Todd23]

To say your straight with the exeption of one guy, just means your bi, but very much prefer women. The romance stories in the game go beyond simply experimenting. All these characters are bi. I don't get mad when people tell themselves otherwise, I just don't think they should say this character was this sexuality in their profile in arguements.

[draken-heart]

Let's go back to origins for a bit. Leliana the only S/S female LI is technically bi, but in my mind she is gay to a female warden because besides the warden, who may or may not be male, her only REAL lover was her bard master, a WOMAN. (REAL as in she actually had feelings for)

now let's look at Merrill and Fenris. these two have no established sexual orientation. Since we do not know which way they would swing normally, It is up to the player's choice of gender to determine these two gay/lesbian or straight.

[ladyofpayne]

I'd like to see BI warrior. There is no BI warrior active type. Intresting who it be- hot orlesian Warden or templar from Antiva.

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:33 .