473 ответов в этой теме

[labargegrrrl]

motomotogirl wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

i liked the all-bi crew, realistic or not. we're an underrepresented bunch, for the most part, so the fact that we got so much face in this game was totally awesome!

But, but, don't you know having four of you in one game is "not realistic"?? 

amen to that!  

[draken-heart]

the only way it would be fixed in the next game is to have one Bi LI, two ****** ones, and two hetero ones. just saying

[bas_kon]

draken-heart wrote...

the only way it would be fixed in the next game is to have one Bi LI, two ****** ones, and two hetero ones. just saying

Of course the bi one being female so:

Straight Male PC: 2 LIs
Straight Female PC: 1 LI
Gay Male PC: 1 LI
Gay Female PC: 2 LIs

And of course, counting with the "HAWT LESBZ" thing, the Straight Male Gamer gets no less than 4 diferent romances to pick from and the others 1 or 2. Bravo!! That's fairness...

Also, I have some exclusively gay friends who hit on women constantly just to tease them, but not on men, since when it comes to them, they get shy and wait for the other to make the move. So hitting on women says nothing about sexuality, and IIRC the male warden nevergets to hit on him...

Btw, I read somewhere a post of Aders' writer, who said Anders was cannonicaly bi, and Karl thing always happened no matter Hawke's gender, but she didn't include it for the female romance, so they could headcannon him as straight if they wanted. But your headcannon and actual cannon are two things very different. but hey! I always headcannon Merril as asexual so I'm not the one to talk. 

[SirGladiator]

More options are better than less options, it really doesn't get much simpler than that. Look at the way they did it in ME2/ME3, you'd be in quite the minority if you didn't have at least one or two characters you wanted to romance but couldn't because of completely needless limitations. If you want to imagine a character is straight/not straight you can do that with any character in DA2 (except Isabella), and any character in the ME series except the Asari, you don't need to put limits on somebody else's enjoyment of the game to enjoy it your own personal way, the lack of limits is what makes it possible for everyone to enjoy it their own personal way, not just a few people. Hopefully the DA2 trend will continue in DA3 (and hopefully the ME fellow will eventually learn from it and apply it in that series as well).

[EricHVela]

Someone from BW mentioned that some characters that can be romanced by either protagonist's gender are only bisexual if you metagame as the character expresses only one interest depending on the protagonist's gender in one playthrough.

IIRC (though I'm not sure if this is correct), Anders in Dragon Age: Kirkwall isn't actually bisexual. He only explicitly mentions his involvement with Karl if broHawke chooses a "heart" option during the second dialog in the first act. I think he says something different with Lady Hawke that suggests he and Karl were just very good friends.

IMHO, that's a little weak to claim such isn't really bisexual, but I understand the argument and that it has narrow logical validity.

However, I've learned that impressions are more important than strict facts, logic or measurements.

There's no way to get around the more-common impression that a character shows an interest in two genders if the player saw the character acting one way in a playthrough and another way in a different playthrough of the opposite gender. Surely, writers don't expect most players to be 100% immune to metagaming.

Having nearly every character show an interest in both genders (metagaming or not) takes away some of the "sincerity" of the characters' story for me. To clarify: Bisexual people are as sincere as any other person of any preference (people are people), but it is pushing the limits of belief suspension when nearly all of the protagonists available love interests just happen to be bisexual (metagaming or not). The coincidence is too great for me. The character's story seems insincere.

People have preferences, and the cold truth is that some hot girl or guy might not swing your way. To me, that's sincerity to the story when writing a character.

(Also if they wanted to go the whole "metagaming" route, they should have created characters that are only attracted to the opposite gender of whatever the protagonist is. Fair is fair.)

Yes. There are bisexual, homosexual and hetrosexual people in Dragon Age. I would dare-say that they are fairly spread evenly in Dragon Age given the trends in Orlais, of Elves and of Dwarves. To me, though, that makes a perfect argument to not overload the game with bisexuality for the sake of "more options" over the sincerity of the story.

Give me characters that my protaganist finds attractive and make them off-limits for specific reasons that still stand with the other gender. Kelly Chambers (likes only women). Steve Cortez (likes only men). Aveline Vallen (like someone specific). Varric Tethras (seems to prefer the Dwarven ladies -- unless enchanted by blood magic). Stuff like that. I prefer that. It gives the story sincerity rather than having it waffle so much.

Anders is a perfect example of a waffling story.

[PizzaThe Hutt]

While I have no problem with all the romacible characters being bi-sexual, it still would be nice to have a variety like maybe one character has a preference to the opposite gender, while another character is better off with their same gender and while some other character(Isabela) is ok with either gender. I did like DA2s openess to sexuality but I just think some of the characters would have been better off with just being straight or gay and not wholly bi-sexual. I'm someone who enjoys having variety in games that I'm more likely to replay. Even though the romance-able ones are all bi, I still just playthrough one game as a straight character or another one as gay, besides, it isn't like I have to romance all of the characters in one go...

[Ghost_Nappa]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Someone from BW mentioned that some characters that can be romanced by either protagonist's gender are only bisexual if you metagame as the character expresses only one interest depending on the protagonist's gender in one playthrough.

IIRC (though I'm not sure if this is correct), Anders in Dragon Age: Kirkwall isn't actually bisexual. He only explicitly mentions his involvement with Karl if broHawke chooses a "heart" option during the second dialog in the first act. I think he says something different with Lady Hawke that suggests he and Karl were just very good friends.

IMHO, that's a little weak to claim such isn't really bisexual, but I understand the argument and that it has narrow logical validity.

However, I've learned that impressions are more important than strict facts, logic or measurements.

There's no way to get around the more-common impression that a character shows an interest in two genders if the player saw the character acting one way in a playthrough and another way in a different playthrough of the opposite gender. Surely, writers don't expect most players to be 100% immune to metagaming.

Having nearly every character show an interest in both genders (metagaming or not) takes away some of the "sincerity" of the characters' story for me. To clarify: Bisexual people are as sincere as any other person of any preference (people are people), but it is pushing the limits of belief suspension when nearly all of the protagonists available love interests just happen to be bisexual (metagaming or not). The coincidence is too great for me. The character's story seems insincere.

People have preferences, and the cold truth is that some hot girl or guy might not swing your way. To me, that's sincerity to the story when writing a character.

(Also if they wanted to go the whole "metagaming" route, they should have created characters that are only attracted to the opposite gender of whatever the protagonist is. Fair is fair.)

Yes. There are bisexual, homosexual and hetrosexual people in Dragon Age. I would dare-say that they are fairly spread evenly in Dragon Age given the trends in Orlais, of Elves and of Dwarves. To me, though, that makes a perfect argument to not overload the game with bisexuality for the sake of "more options" over the sincerity of the story.

Give me characters that my protaganist finds attractive and make them off-limits for specific reasons that still stand with the other gender. Kelly Chambers (likes only women). Steve Cortez (likes only men). Aveline Vallen (like someone specific). Varric Tethras (seems to prefer the Dwarven ladies -- unless enchanted by blood magic). Stuff like that. I prefer that. It gives the story sincerity rather than having it waffle so much.

Anders is a perfect example of a waffling story.

Mr. Regger you just summed up my thoughts, and possibly othersin, on the matter in a clear adult way that doesn't belittle others. Thank you.

[wowpwnslol]

Burnouts3s3 wrote...

 I fully support the idea of homosexual options in video
games. This is not a homophobic rant against bisexuals or homosexuals. This is
not a tirade against homosexuality, but rather a personal insight that I hope
leads into an intellectual discussion. Whatever your preference in real life or
in virtual life, I fully support.

Why is this paragraph even needed? In bold text no less. Are you afraid of appearing politically incorrect and hurting someone's feeling over the intrawebz? Lol.

[Wrathion]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Burnouts3s3 wrote...

 I fully support the idea of homosexual options in video
games. This is not a homophobic rant against bisexuals or homosexuals. This is
not a tirade against homosexuality, but rather a personal insight that I hope
leads into an intellectual discussion. Whatever your preference in real life or
in virtual life, I fully support.

Why is this paragraph even needed? In bold text no less. Are you afraid of appearing politically incorrect and hurting someone's feeling over the intrawebz? Lol.

Being a decent human being = politically correct

lolokay

[labargegrrrl]

just a few questions before i state my case:

why is it that no one seemed to think het romance options were ever controversial?

or unrealistic?

or something that watered down a character's development?

or cheap?

who originally coined the term 'hawkesexual' as a DA2 slur for bi?

can i slap them?

why is it that many people are quick to say they don't mind characters being straight or gay, but some of these same individuals seem to have a problem with them being bi?

do those people even know how you sound to those of us that are?

ok, ok, the questions WERE my case, i admit it!

i understand wanting to see everyone's sexuality honored and embraced. but i think we can say that without stating or implying biaphobia. saying you support bisexuality outside of a game, but don't like to see it so fully embraced IN a game, doesn't make your case sound any better.

HOWEVER:

i fully support what you're saying about having the whole spectrum of sexual diversity reflected.

we have yet to see a character that is gay. period. totally homosexual. that needs to change.

kudos to bioware for making an asexual/heteroromantic out of Sebs, which i think is a way undersung phenomenon in regards to the issue of sexual diversity.

kudos to them for introducing bi characters to begin with.

slowly but surely we'll all get where we need to be.

[PizzaThe Hutt]

Besides romances, I'd kind of like to see more of the Bro-mances or the BFFs, someone that doesn't act like a "sidekick" or comedy-relief to a character but as an equal. Like how Varric or Garrus were(at least with my playthroughs they were), I want to see more of that too.

[KAM12780]

I'm gay and I completely agree. I wish they did it like Origins where there was one straight option for male/female and the two bisexual options for straight/gay/bisexual male/female. Although I'd appreciate someone as caring as Allistair, instead of Zevran next time!

[KAM12780]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Burnouts3s3 wrote...

 I fully support the idea of homosexual options in video
games. This is not a homophobic rant against bisexuals or homosexuals. This is
not a tirade against homosexuality, but rather a personal insight that I hope
leads into an intellectual discussion. Whatever your preference in real life or
in virtual life, I fully support.

Why is this paragraph even needed? In bold text no less. Are you afraid of appearing politically incorrect and hurting someone's feeling over the intrawebz? Lol.

Because if he didn't some people may get angry and start needless drama over the internet who live proably tens of thousands miles apart with him/her. 

[Sarcastic Tasha]

How can more choice be bad? Yes it means you have to try to ignore metagaming and embrace roleplaying but I don't think that's bad. There's not much room for variety with 4 LIs. Adding extra characters doesn't seem like a better option, just means each character is going to get less content. DA2 gave us extra choice without having to write extra characters.

[EricHVela]

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering. The character development becomes insincere for the sake of appeasement.

[berelinde]

ReggarBlane wrote...

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering. The character development becomes insincere for the sake of appeasement.

Without the clarifying objects, your sentence makes no sense.

See what I mean?

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering to straight male gamers. The character development becomes incincere for the sake of appeasement of those whose sexual identity is too fragile to withstand the inclusion of characters whose orientation differs from their own.

Is that what you were trying to say?

It is possible that straight male gamers do still constitute the majority of BioWare's customer base, but that becomes more debatable every year. With "non-traditional" gamers - females and gay males - making up a larger portion of the fan base all the time, including characters who appeal to these gamers is not appeasement, it is good story-telling. It keeps the audience coming back for more. BG2 was a great game, but it put a lot of female gamers off because of the gender disparity in the romance department.

[Carmen_Willow]

As long as Bioware keeps writing the LI's I want to romance so that in my roleplay I can see them as heterosexual if I choose and nothing in the dialogue makes me think otherwise, I don't care.

Isabela was openly bi, and Anders could be taken as being bi, but I don't recall any Fenris dialogue that forced you to think of him as bi, and I only romanced Merrril once so I don't remember with her. I think of Fenris as heterosexual who was forced to be Denarius' "body slave." He comes off as someone with that kind of rage and shame, so it works for me. But you could equally interpret his dialogue as being gay and raging over what is essentially rape by his owner. Bioware did a good job with this.

I can understand why someone who was gay would be upset at being forced to play a female in order to romance Alistair. You pay $60.00 for a game, you'd like to be able to play with whomever you choose.

[Toki]

I could go either way. They could either make it so it's depending on the actually character/personality, which wouldn't bother me, or they could just make everyone bisexual to please more fans. In all honestly, both don't bother me. I, personally, don't play as a homosexual because I feel a bit awkward, but I have no problem playing as a woman so when I wanted to see Fenris's romance I just played as Lady Hawke.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

ReggarBlane wrote...

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering. The character development becomes insincere for the sake of appeasement.

I don't really see how a character's sexual orientation is relevant to the story. Its superficial, its like having the ability to play as LadyHawke, it doesn't change the story but some people prefer it. Merrill being available to both Hawkes didn't make her character development insincere, her character development had nothing to do whether she was gay or straight and why should it?

Now if Thedas were a place where gay people were persecuted then it would be relevant because it would have a bigger effect on the character (e.g. they may have had to hide who they really were to avoid persecution). But as it is it really doesn't matter.

[Wrathion]

berelinde wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering. The character development becomes insincere for the sake of appeasement.

Without the clarifying objects, your sentence makes no sense.

See what I mean?

"More choice" can be bad when the story shows obvious signs of pandering to straight male gamers. The character development becomes incincere for the sake of appeasement of those whose sexual identity is too fragile to withstand the inclusion of characters whose orientation differs from their own.

Is that what you were trying to say?

It is possible that straight male gamers do still constitute the majority of BioWare's customer base, but that becomes more debatable every year. With "non-traditional" gamers - females and gay males - making up a larger portion of the fan base all the time, including characters who appeal to these gamers is not appeasement, it is good story-telling. It keeps the audience coming back for more. BG2 was a great game, but it put a lot of female gamers off because of the gender disparity in the romance department.

Preach. 
Straight male gamers are so oppressed.

[Dwarva]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I can understand why someone who was gay would be upset at being forced to play a female in order to romance Alistair. You pay $60.00 for a game, you'd like to be able to play with whomever you choose.

I wasn't really going to get involved in this debate but I admit I find this opinion rather peculiar.

Alistair was straight. It was part of his personality - it wasn't up for debate (although some shippers might disagree ) and just was part of who he was. He liked women. No one's forcing anyone to romance anyone and if anyone is upset at the writers creating a certain part of his personality that they can't access, I'm not sure that they be expected to write in a way that makes every single player happy.

Would it be different if Velanna had been a LI and only wanted a relationship with elves? I can see that being perfectly plausable because it's part of who she is, just like being straight was part of Alistairs/Morrigan's. I don't think people would be up in arms about that actually...

If we're saying the writers can't create characters with personalities/stories that don't appeal to every single fan we're in a sorry state indeed...

Сообщение изменено: Staarbux, 11 Июль 2012 - 02:10 .

[PizzaThe Hutt]

They shouldn't be expected to write characters that everyone likes, it's improbable to make a character that everyone likes. Like for example, I like Loghain while others hate him. I think the writers should make a characters sexuality consistent with the personality of the character in mind. I'd understand why Isabela doesn't particularly care who she sleeps with as long as she sleeps with someone it's in her personality. Also while anders seemed to say he likes women I wouldn't be surprised if he were open to the idea of being with a man, it's in his personality, etc...

[Wrathion]

Staarbux wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I can understand why someone who was gay would be upset at being forced to play a female in order to romance Alistair. You pay $60.00 for a game, you'd like to be able to play with whomever you choose.

I wasn't really going to get involved in this debate but I admit I find this opinion rather peculiar.

Alistair was straight. It was part of his personality - it wasn't up for debate (although some shippers might disagree ) and just was part of who he was. He liked women. No one's forcing anyone to romance anyone and if anyone is upset at the writers creating a certain part of his personality that they can't access, I'm not sure that they be expected to write in a way that makes every single player happy.

Would it be different if Velanna had been a LI and only wanted a relationship with elves? I can see that being perfectly plausable because it's part of who she is, just like being straight was part of Alistairs/Morrigan's. I don't think people would be up in arms about that actually...

If we're saying the writers can't create characters with personalities/stories that don't appeal to every single fan we're in a sorry state indeed...

Before I start looking at you side-ways. I'm going to need for you to answer a question.

Velanna hate humans. Velanna hates humans. Velanna hates humans. Because they've enslaved and tortured her people for centures. That's why (if she were romancable) it would be likely that she wouldn't go for your human Warden(?)

How does Alistair liking females tie in with his personality/story?



Hint: It doesn't.
 

Сообщение изменено: Alexandrine Delassixe, 11 Июль 2012 - 06:23 .

[Dwarva]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...
How does Alistair liking females tie in with his personality/story?

Hint: It doesn't.

Because your sexuality is part of who you are. It's part of what makes you, you. Just like your likes, your dislikes and your oddities. Just like the fact that you might like blondes or you might prefer red heads.

I'm a straight woman. Do you think I wander around saying 'it's not fair that he's gay because I'm straight and I'm attracted to him?'. Eh no. Because it's part of who he is.

These characters belong to their writers. We get to play with them and thats it. If they say 'part of this person's make up is that they only like men/women', who the hell are we to say that's unfair?

And, quite frankly, there's no need to talk to me like I'm a child just because I have a different viewpoint from you.

Сообщение изменено: Staarbux, 11 Июль 2012 - 07:42 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Staarbux wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I can understand why someone who was gay would be upset at being forced to play a female in order to romance Alistair. You pay $60.00 for a game, you'd like to be able to play with whomever you choose.

I wasn't really going to get involved in this debate but I admit I find this opinion rather peculiar.

Why?  If Fenris were gay-only, wouldn't it be kind of annoying that you'd have to play as DudeHawke to romance him?  (I don't know if you play FemHawke or DudeHawke, just using that as an example).

Carmen is just pointing out that it can be annoying when the character you want to romance is unavailable to you.  It's particularly annoying because you paid 60 bucks for the game (that's quite a lot of money).  That's not really an opinion; it is annoying.  

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

How does Alistair liking females tie in with his personality/story?



Hint: It doesn't.

 

So irrefutable, and yet haters gonna hate and try to refue it anyway 

Staarbux wrote...

Because your sexuality is part of who you are. It's part of what makes you, you. Just like your likes, your dislikes and your oddities. Just like the fact that you might like blondes or you might prefer red heads. 

I'm a straight woman. Do you think I wander around saying 'it's not fair that he's gay because I'm straight and I'm attracted to him?'. Eh no. Because it's part of who he is. 

 

There is a difference between a real person and a video game character.  

If you are attracted to Anderson Cooper and were disappointed to find out he's gay, well, you're a bit crazy for thinking you had a chance with a celebrity in the first place, but that at least makes some kind of sense.

If you want to romance Alistair but can't because you prefer to play male Wardens and/or find it not particularly enjoyable to play male/female romances, then that also makes sense.  You want Alistair for your Warden.  You can't have him.  You're annoyed.

Only difference is Anderson is a real person and Alistair is not, so it's actually okay to make Alistair be however you want him to be in order to satisfy your fantasy playthrough.  Beause he's a character ... in a ROLE-PLAYING GAME.