473 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I wasn't talking about people having an issue with it, I was talking about the frequency with which it occurred. I assume that something that is odd or unusual, and which Zevran feels a need to specifically mention when romanced by a female Warden, is something that does not happen frequently. Which I then take to mean that same-sex relationships aren't any more common in Thedas than they are in the real world.

Even outside of LIs, this is shown to not really be the case. I think Zevran was just being careful.

Five lines of altered dialogue tagged on in an attempt to appeal to everyone doesn't feel like a gain to me. It's just as meaningless as JKR telling the world Dumbledore was gay a year after Deathly Hallows was released.

Except we can actually see their relationships in this one. It's as different as night and day.

That way each of those characters being bi would make sense and their preferences would be clearly established. Then it would feel like Hawke was just insanely lucky to be surrounded by people whose gender preferences included him/her, instead of the LIs all falling for Hawke due to him/her being Hawke. Four bisexual people in one group of companions is unusual enough that I wouldn't want Bioware to repeat it in DA3, but I would've been okay with it for one game if it had been done properly.

So the problem is the lack of information and not being all-bisexual per se. Fine then, they can learn their lesson for DA3. However, I fully expect Bioware to maintain the standard they've set here. And if it's a retcon from Origins standards, well, Origins standards are inferior in many ways. I'm quite happy with this, and I suspect you could be so in time as well.

I'm not disagreeing, like I remember reading that dolphins show homosexual tendencies. What I'm saying is the benefits of homosexuality could be seen as superficial, so far as heterosexual relationships provide children. I'm not saying heterosexuality is right, I'm saying it'd be understandable why a set of taboos could be set in place by a culture of people who develop their beliefs around necessity, and not frivolity.

They could be, but this doesn't need to be the case for LIs.

I'm saying racism exists in the DA unvierse, and if a companion happened to be racist, the PC would KNOW, and if there was a companion that was of the race they didn't like, that companion would KNOW. Kind of like how Fenris let any mage companion he happened to be around know how he felt about them.

Then implement it, though it'd be easier if they weren't an LI.

[Lenimph]

I don't mind some companions not being bi as long as I can flirt with them and they respond according to their character.

I just hate situations where I'm locked out of flirting with someone just because of my characters gender. This really bugged me with the Mass Effect series and especially in the case of Miranda and Jack.

[Aleya]

Xilizhra wrote...
So the problem is the lack of information and not being all-bisexual per se. Fine then, they can learn their lesson for DA3. However, I fully expect Bioware to maintain the standard they've set here. And if it's a retcon from Origins standards, well, Origins standards are inferior in many ways. I'm quite happy with this, and I suspect you could be so in time as well.

One can but hope ^^ As someone said above, it seems like in Orlais (open and easily accepted) same-sex relationships are more common so perhaps there all-bi LIs wouldn't seem as out of place.

However, if we're going to drop the idea that most people are straight, what I would really want is a DA3 where the LIs are one bisexual man, one bisexual woman, one gay man, and one lesbian woman. Can you understand why, in that situation, the gay man not being available to me would make me insanely happy? 

Modifié par Aleya, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:29 .

[Xilizhra]

I can understand it intellectually but not emotionally. And honestly, even in ME3, I would have no problem with either Samantha or Steve being bisexual. I can hardly apply my ideals of inclusiveness selectively; I just want to decay the constant front of heteronormativity.

[ObserverStatus]

I didn't know that Bill Nye had a BSN account.

[Arch1eviathan]

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

[Lenimph]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

 

Saying Isabela doesn't seem bi is like saying the sun doesn't seem bright. 

[Zjarcal]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

What.... what.... what.... WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!??!?!?!?

I'm sorry, I can't give any answer to that statement that isn't a mock reply.

[CuriousArtemis]

You have to wonder what a bi person "seems like" to him/her.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

That's not really accurate though. Even if you never read these forums or read the wiki, you might still have the information simply by choosing to do a second play as the opposing gender from your first play, by which you would then discover that those characters also had the option to be romanced by either gender.

If that was considered metagaming, then every play beyond the first could be considered a metagame since you can never forget the things you learned while playing it the first time. Thus, only the first play is "pure."

Not all people do multiple playthroughs and some people only ever play as one gender (I personally don't like playing as a bloke). So there must be people who play the game that don't know that all the LIs are available to male and female Hawke.

Personally I find the first playthrough is the only playthrough I can completely avoid metagaming. I'm pretty good at roleplaying instead of metagaming but I will sometimes swap companions for the sake of the friendship/rivalry points, I wouldn't make Hawke say something out of character though.

How many people do you all think are totally immune to metagaming?

I agree that if you play the game more than once its pretty much impossible to completely avoid metagaming, but I think with a bit of effort it can be kept to a minimum.

The game world and its characters do not change between playthroughs. Why on earth would sexual orientation be the one exception to that rule?

There are things other than characters' sexual orientation that change, like how Hawke's class decides if Carver or Bethany survives.

I don't mind the changeable sexual orientation I think its the best way to maximise the choices. I don't really think a person's orientation is a particularly important thing about them. I'm gay but I don't think it defines me, its about as relevant as my height or my taste in music. Merrill is my favourite character in DA2 and I don't see that having her orientation stated explicitly would have improved her character in any way. Similarly I wouldn't have liked Traynor any less if she'd been available for BroShep too, BroShep doesn't exist in my game so it doesn't matter.

[mesmerizedish]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

I'm ignoring the Isabela part, because effing lawl, but Fenris's romance was written with a male Hawke in mind.

There is no good enough reason to make any LI available to only one gender of protagonist. Straight characters are fine, just don't make them LIs (like Aveline).

[upsettingshorts]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

Kept?

Kept?!

You're do realize you're talking about the pirate hanging out in the brothel who had a "the more the merrier" attitude towards an orgy, and the elf who was written specifically with the M/M romance in mind?

[bleetman]

Sorry, what? I couldn't hear anything over the sound of Isabela having a foursome with multiple partners of both genders.

What? Oh, yeah. She's straight as a board.

[EricHVela]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Isabela and Fenris don't seem bi to me. They should've been kept heterosexual.

I have to agree with the others here. Isabela is definitely bi through and through. I don't know much about Rivaini, but it's very possible that such attitudes towards sex like hers is common in Rivain.

As for Fenris, I would have left him as homosexual, and not bisexual. I'm all for "options" but not at the cost of sincerity towards the story's setting and characters. It seems like pandering when nearly everyone is bisexual when the locale is likely to find such as the way of foreigners more than locals. Orlais (and possibly Rivain and other locations), sure. Ferelden and Kirkwall, seems off to me.

I would rather be denied a romance due to a character's preference for a specific gender than have a character flip-flop between playthroughs as if their preference has changed (which differs from bi-). The character's design becomes insincere to me. In all fairness if a character flip-flops to prefer the protagonist's gender, there should be characters that flip-flop to always favor the opposite gender of the protagonist.

The metagame argument is a weak one. People will metagame, and writers should expect this. Players cannot simply forget that they played it previously even if they pretend to ignore it (unless one is like me with annoying, random amnesia -- but forgetting the whole game is still a stretch for me -- but playing games again is a treat, so I do get something good out of it).

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 20 juillet 2012 - 11:44 .

[Masha Potato]

Ain't nobody turns down a tumble in Rivain. Ain't nobody

[Xilizhra]

I think that poster meant Merrill and got the names confused.

I would rather be denied a romance due to a character's preference for a specific gender than have a character flip-flop between playthroughs as if their preference has changed (which differs from bi-). The character's design becomes insincere to me. In all fairness if a character flip-flops to prefer the protagonist's gender, there should be characters that flip-flop to always favor the opposite gender of the protagonist.

Um, so far as I know, that's never happened and has in fact been outright denied, if I recall correctly.

As for Fenris, I would have left him as homosexual, and not bisexual. I'm all for "options" but not at the cost of sincerity towards the story's setting and characters. It seems like pandering when nearly everyone is bisexual when the locale is likely to find such as the way of foreigners more than locals. Orlais (and possibly Rivain and other locations), sure. Ferelden and Kirkwall, seems off to me.

Two are elves, two are foreigners and I think Circles have a fairly liberal culture regarding sexuality.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would rather be denied a romance due to a character's preference for a specific gender than have a character flip-flop between playthroughs as if their preference has changed (which differs from bi-). The character's design becomes insincere to me. In all fairness if a character flip-flops to prefer the protagonist's gender, there should be characters that flip-flop to always favor the opposite gender of the protagonist.

Um, so far as I know, that's never happened and has in fact been outright denied, if I recall correctly.

Actually, the argument ties in with metagaming, claiming that the character is only bisexual if one depends on a playthrough with the other gender. That argument has been used by a BW community guy in the ME3 story/campaign forums regarding Kaidan. Logically, that would mean the character flip-flops if one playthrough without metagaming means the character is gay and another hetero.

Anders doesn't mention his relationship with Karl when talking to femHawke. He mentions it with broHawke. Seems like a big thing to suddenly leave out for a specific gender. Without metagaming, he would be gay in one and hetero in another. Since metagaming should be expected unless someone loses their memory between playthroughs, the character becomes bi, but it's worse with Anders as he treats his past differently with different genders as if the writers expect players to ignore what they experienced previously.

Xilizhra wrote...

Two are elves, two are foreigners and I think Circles have a fairly liberal culture regarding sexuality.

This ties into an earlier post I made that the protagonist somehow attracted only bisexual romance characters in a locale where such seemed like it would be less common. It seemed like pandering instead of sincerity with this convenient sexual coincidence.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Todd23]

@Feuerwerke Aveline isn't romancable? I never tried romancing her because I neither find her attractive nor interesting. I'll have to assume those videos I watched were mods, so I'll take that, my bad. But I have yet to find a group of bi kids to form because they were hoping to get together. Besides, all the companions joined because of Hawke, who's sexuality is determined by the player. Perhaps Hawke simply draws bis like moths to a flame? And I'll admit, I do find it irritating that a gay warden is practically given an ultimatum in terms of romance. I would have liked to romance Alistair, but I prefer this. A straight guy will not have sex with another man (unless he's in Brazil). And it's wrong to say Origins painted bi people as being promiscuous, Zevran was how he was because he was raised in a ****-house (as he enjoyed pointing out). And Leliana searched for something deeper in a relationship and wasn't as easy to bed as Morrigan. But I cannot stress enough that my issue is with every companion being bi, not the fact that their are bi companions. I enjoy having bi companions, I'm bi myself. I was quite dissapointed with the lack of gay and bi companions in ME 1 & 2. I simply want Bioware to not make every companion in DA3 bi.

[hoorayforicecream]

I don't want every companion in DA3 to be bi either. I only want all the love interests to be either bisexual or player-sexual.

I've felt that who they are is much more important than what their sexuality is. Every companion in the past has had one or more main themes, and none of those themes have ever been about sexuality. I'd rather they stay the course of how they've done it in the past - focus on the character arc. If somebody's really all about sexuality as his or her main theme, then that's fine with me. But I doubt that's what's going to happen when there are other, more interesting themes to be had IMO.

Edit: Just wanted to boil it down. I just don't think "Heterosexual unless proven otherwise" is the way to go.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:35 .

[Feuerwerke]

Honestly Merrill felt like a lesbian to me if anything. I can't even explain why but the idea of her with a male Hawke is skeevy to me, in part because of that vibe. This is just me, though. I don't have anything to back it up and I'm not going to try to claim it to be fact, it's just a feeling I get.

If that person really does mean Isabela then...lol what even.

[labargegrrrl]

while i would love this forum if it was about INCLUSION of gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, androgyn, or any other intersection of gender interest or sexuality, it has become remarkably transparent that it is NOT about INCLUDING a more sexually diverse cast.

it is about EXCLUDING bisexual cast.

maybe we should start a forum based on who we INCLUDE and not who we REJECT?

[Nragedreaper]

labargegrrrl wrote...

while i would love this forum if it was about INCLUSION of gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, androgyn, or any other intersection of gender interest or sexuality, it has become remarkably transparent that it is NOT about INCLUDING a more sexually diverse cast.

it is about EXCLUDING bisexual cast.

maybe we should start a forum based on who we INCLUDE and not who we REJECT?

It doesn't seem to be about excluding a bisexual cast, but including a exclusively straight, exclusively gay, and bisexual cast.  If the point is to be inclusive then there needs to be some diversity or at least the illusion of diversity.  The problem is when a character is so off putting you don't really feel like you have choice.  DA2 is a great example...I didn't really care for the whole wanton sea **** of isabela, but given the option of that and Merrill...sea **** here I come.  I admit I like the fact that traynor shut MaleShep down.  It makes the world more realistic and immersive.  That's just me though.  Not saying there shouldn't be one, but do we have to do the DA2 round robin of everyone is bisexual? 

[Dwarva]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
 Fenris's romance was written with a male Hawke in mind.

What makes you think this? I've always thought Fenris' romance played equally believably with either a male or female Hawke?

[whykikyouwhy]

Staarbux wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
 Fenris's romance was written with a male Hawke in mind.

What makes you think this? I've always thought Fenris' romance played equally believably with either a male or female Hawke?

It's not that the romance can't be or isn't believable regardless of what gender Hawke is. I believe what ishmaeltheforsaken is referring to is that David Gaider has been quoted/paraphrased as saying that when he wrote Fenris's romance arc, he had a male Hawke in mind - not as a means to limit the relationship, but as what he envisioned when he was storyboarding it, how the scenes played out in his head, as it were.

I haven't found a direct quote from Gaider (though I seem to recall seeing it somewhere), but it has been mentioned in a blog from a fan that interviewed him - it's on the wiki, but here's the Fenris bit:

"Favorite part: Gaider wrote the Fenris romance with a male Hawke in mind! I am a F!Hawke/Anders, M!Hawke/Fenris girl so this was neat to me. The rivalry romance was the one he wrote first, and the one he prefers."

[Terraforming2154]

Nragedreaper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

while i would love this forum if it was about INCLUSION of gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, androgyn, or any other intersection of gender interest or sexuality, it has become remarkably transparent that it is NOT about INCLUDING a more sexually diverse cast.

it is about EXCLUDING bisexual cast.

maybe we should start a forum based on who we INCLUDE and not who we REJECT?

It doesn't seem to be about excluding a bisexual cast, but including a exclusively straight, exclusively gay, and bisexual cast.  If the point is to be inclusive then there needs to be some diversity or at least the illusion of diversity.  The problem is when a character is so off putting you don't really feel like you have choice.  DA2 is a great example...I didn't really care for the whole wanton sea **** of isabela, but given the option of that and Merrill...sea **** here I come.  I admit I like the fact that traynor shut MaleShep down.  It makes the world more realistic and immersive.  That's just me though.  Not saying there shouldn't be one, but do we have to do the DA2 round robin of everyone is bisexual? 

And this illusion of diversity would most likely come at the cost of gay or bisexual characters. Look at the Dragon Age trend of having two LIs of either gender per game. Let's say they make one straight and one bisexual. Like in DAO - straight players would get two choices, while gay or bi players would be given one. If I didn't like Leliana? Well, too bad. I either got her or no one. The same would have happened if DA2 had followed the same mold. I would have gotten Isabela (most like), even if I found Merrill more appealing.

I guess they could have made one exclusively straight and one exclusively gay option, but would people really only want one romance choice?

Or, I guess Bioware could provide four options per gender (two straight only, one bi, and one gay character) - but then they run the risk of the game's character lineup being too bloated.