473 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And this illusion of diversity would most likely come at the cost of gay or bisexual characters. Look at the Dragon Age trend of having two LIs of either gender per game. Let's say they make one straight and one bisexual. Like in DAO - straight players would get two choices, while gay or bi players would be given one. If I didn't like Leliana? Well, too bad. I either got her or no one. The same would have happened if DA2 had followed the same mold. I would have gotten Isabela (most like), even if I found Merrill more appealing.

I guess they could have made one exclusively straight and one exclusively gay option, but would people really only want one romance choice?

Or, I guess Bioware could provide four options per gender (two straight only, one bi, and one gay character) - but then they run the risk of the game's character lineup being too bloated.

Indeed. One bisexual per gender is too restrictive and just adding more romance options probably leads to too many characters.

[Todd23]

What's wrong with a bunch of companions? With a combination of new companions and returning ones (fingers crossed for Zevran). They could have a huge team with everyone still being interesting. Didn't Origins have 11 companions?

[Knight of Dane]

I would think that more companions need more game time. Mass Effect 2 had a huge lineup when you had Zaeed and Kasumi too and i always felt like the game was too short to properly experience all of them.

I would rather have fewer well done characters than many with little or missing content.

[Terraforming2154]

Todd23 wrote...

What's wrong with a bunch of companions? With a combination of new companions and returning ones (fingers crossed for Zevran). They could have a huge team with everyone still being interesting. Didn't Origins have 11 companions?

Knight of Dane already stated my problem more eloquently than I can, but the more characters there are in a team, the more concerned I am that the characters won't get proper attention and won't be developed completely. ME2 had a large squad, and while I liked the characters introduced in that game a lot, it felt like their stories were more compelling snapshots than satifsying, character-developing arcs.

I actually didn't realize that DAO had that many companions. I thought it was eight or so, which seemed like a pretty good number (maybe even leaning toward the high side for my liking).

And to amend my earlier comment, in regards to diversity and sexual orientation of characters - while I personally prefer the all bi treatment and think that is the best way for Bioware to go, I would be moderately okay if they did something like 3 options (straight/gay/bi) for each gender. That way we would have six romanceable companions and maybe two or three non-LIs to round out the team. If Bioware was able to handle that well given the constraints of development, I would be able to live with that compromise.

I just want everyone to get an equal amount of choices, really.  I don't want a repeat of DAO.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .

[Knight of Dane]

Dragon age: Origins had Shale, Oghren, Sten, Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, Mabari and Loghain as companions.
Loghain and Alistair is part of the same arc, can't have them both. And mabari doesn't have an arc.
That's eight as you say.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:23 .

[Todd23]

@Terraforming2154 That's something I would like too. I don't think DA3 needs to be full of straight and gay romances, just one or two to keep it realistic. Truth be told I'd probably be content with (but not tickled pink about) only one non-bi person, if they were gay. Due to the fact that Dragon Age has been lacking such a character. So are we agreed? DA3 should have most romances bi, but not all?Edit:  AND, take their time to property script each character.

Modifié par Todd23, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:02 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not agreed; I consider it a fairly silly waste of resources to arbitrarily restrict the sexuality of any LIs. Given that none of them have any standards about race or appearance, and barely any about behavior, it seems like a somewhat arbitrary place to suddenly cry nonrealism.

[nightscrawl]

Nragedreaper wrote...

The problem is when a character is so off putting you don't really feel like you have choice.  DA2 is a great example...I didn't really care for the whole wanton sea **** of isabela, but given the option of that and Merrill...sea **** here I come.

For this post I am just taking for granted that most people will initially  go for the gender they are attracted to in real life, and not include game experimentation (like myself playing a [I specifically RPd this in my head as far as conversation and character BG go] gay guy romancing Anders, but am a straight woman IRL)


To me that doesn't really have anything to do with the ability to romance those two as either gender, but rather your personal opinion of them as characters. I'm sure there are straight guys who don't like either choice of Isabela or Merrill, and there are lesbians who don't like either Isabela or Merrill. That doesn't have anything to do with not having a choice of who you can and can't romance.

I really dislike Merrill. Isabela is amusing, but that's all. I did one romance of Isabela for kicks. I will never romance either of them again. I don't like them. Period. It's not Bioware's fault that I don't like them. The choice is there if I want to romance a woman. I'm sure there were straight women and gay men who felt the same about Fenris and Anders. Again, that's not Bioware's fault.

Having them be Hawkesexual, or PCsexual, whatever you want to term it, actually enables more choice  than you had with DAO. If you were on a female PC and are a lesbian you have a choice of Leliana and that's it. If you are on a male PC are a gay man you have a choice of Zevran and that's it. On the other hand, straight persons of either sex have two choices each since Leliana and Zevran cross over. If you are bi in real life you still only have two choices per gender of your PC in DAO, whereas you have a total of four in DA2.

DA2 = more choices for everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation in real life. Just because you have some outside knowledge  that tells you they are romancable by either gender doesn't take away  your number of choices. That is a mental barrier for you and has nothing to do with Bioware.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 juillet 2012 - 02:37 .

[nightscrawl]

As an aside, I bet there won't be ANY romances in the next game. You know, just to screw with us, and take revenge for all of these threads.

[ladyofpayne]

I want realistic background for BI Character.
It doen's matter who it be-warrior, mage and another.
Just write that those companion is orlesian or antivan that would be enough. But no- we get bi Merril it is impossible there is no such wide-opened point of view in dalish clans.

[Xilizhra]

ladyofpayne wrote...

I want realistic background for BI Character.
It doen's matter who it be-warrior, mage and another.
Just write that those companion is orlesian or antivan that would be enough. But no- we get bi Merril it is impossible there is no such wide-opened point of view in dalish clans.

And you have proof of this how? Not to mention the logic of bisexual people only ever coming from countries that accept them...

[Knight of Dane]

Yeah, what do you base that childish statement on ladyofpayne?

[PizzaThe Hutt]

nightscrawl wrote...

As an aside, I bet there won't be ANY romances in the next game. You know, just to screw with us, and take revenge for all of these threads.

Maker no!  There'll be riots in the streets!

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Merrill's clan would probably be more bothered about Hawke being a shem than a woman. In any case Merrill has already had to leave her clan because of her beliefs, I doubt she'd let the clan's disapproval stop her being with who she wants to be with.

[Feuerwerke]

Wow ladyofpayne that is horrible reasoning. Did you know that bi/homosexual people CAN come from social groups that don't accept them? Shocking, I know. Heck, I come from a rural, conservative town in the Midwest, myself! By your logic I cannot be bisexual because it's not something my sphere of society accepts. But guess what? Here I am. I am bisexual. There are tons of others like me. LGBT people don't just come from the magical land of San Fransisco, you know.

Also uh. Merrill has a tendency to reject her clan's norms, if you haven't noticed, so that's kind of a moot point anyway.

[Todd23]

PizzaThe Hutt wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

As an aside, I bet there won't be ANY romances in the next game. You know, just to screw with us, and take revenge for all of these threads.

Maker no!  There'll be riots in the streets!

I'd rally one myself! 
@ladyofpayne  I don't blame you for your statement.  I know it stems from a lack of knowing the truth about such things, rather then a lack of morale character.  When I came out to my grandma, she said:  "I thought gays were in France.  They came here?"  

[ladyofpayne]

Feuerwerke wrote...

Wow ladyofpayne that is horrible reasoning. Did you know that bi/homosexual people CAN come from social groups that don't accept them? Shocking, I know. Heck, I come from a rural, conservative town in the Midwest, myself! By your logic I cannot be bisexual because it's not something my sphere of society accepts. But guess what? Here I am. I am bisexual. There are tons of others like me. LGBT people don't just come from the magical land of San Fransisco, you know.

Also uh. Merrill has a tendency to reject her clan's norms, if you haven't noticed, so that's kind of a moot point anyway.

I know. I mean- that in Orlais and Antiva people have more free relationships that in another lands. 
In games and books talk much about it:

"Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for (if not encouragement of) relations with multiple partners of either sex. "

If BI char would be from orlais/antiva it will not be so surprized for me and the char will looks more natural.

But in Merril case- I was shocked. Because

"
There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.
"

She was raised in society with such opinion. She isn't kind of person who can be very rebellious from everything of elven soicety, Merril isn't  Anders.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

ladyofpayne wrote...

But in Merril case- I was shocked. Because

"
There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.
"

She was raised in society with such opinion. She isn't kind of person who can be very rebellious from everything of elven soicety, Merril isn't Anders.

I see your point about the elves but a human/elf relationship would be just as taboo as a same sex relationship and I disagree about Merrill not being rebellious. The description of Merrill's personal tree Dalish Pariah:

"Merrill has never quite felt like she's fit in, and her choices have only furthered the gap between her and her people."

And from Merrill's friendship bonus Solidarity:

"Striking out alone is never easy. Hawke's companionship has renewed Merrill's strength."

Merrill has already alienated herself from her clan, they don't support her, don't trust her. Hawke does so its not surprising she'd choose Hawke over her clan.

[Fox In The Box]

ladyofpayne wrote...

She was raised in society with such
opinion. She isn't kind of person who can be very rebellious from
everything of elven soicety, Merril isn't  Anders.

Your sexual orientation is not a logical extension of your personality. It's just who you are. As for Merrill "not being very rebellious" - being with another human, regardless of gender, is basically spitting on whatever the Dalish believes that proper elves should do, since no babies born out of that is going to be an elf. It's not like Merrill ever personally expressed the view that homosexuality is wrong or immoral anyway. She might never have considered it an option up until the point where she came to Kirkwall, with a much more relaxed view on same-sex relations, and interacted with people like Isabela and Hawke and thought "hey, having crushes other women is not weird and I can act on those feelings if I want to."

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[Heidenreich]

Oh look, it's this thread!

Anders is not Bisexual. He is Pansexual. He doesn't base sexuality on gender, but personality. He is attracted to the PERSON, not the body parts. Thus he can easily joke about skirt-chasing in Awakening with obviously straight characters. Not to mention the fact that EVERYONE in the circle wears skirts ;p I am highly amused when folks use that as an excuse as to why Anders would never romance Males -- HE TALKS ABOUT WOMEN -- with a straight male. LE GASP.

Merrill had zero sexual experiences within her clan. It isn't until she gets out of her clans environment that she experiences the CONCEPT of bisexuality through Isabela and a gay/bi Hawke. Not to mention the fact that it's more Taboo for her to romance a HUMAN then whether or not they're female or male.

We have zero context on Fenris' sexual preferences until he expresses them. Fenris could easily be gay only OR straight only. An unromanced Fenris eventually hooks up with Isabela, yes, but a romanced Fenris never expresses interest in her at all. In fact it's  7 years deep into Kirkwall before he (as non-romanced) even considers it. Sex is a non-issue for him for the vast majority of the game. He finds the jokes amusing, but otherwise he is more inclined to asexualtiy then anything.

Isabela is the ONLY bisexual character in the cast. She's clear and defined from the start.

So no, the cast is not all Bi. Each individual character is defined by how you play. Anders will hit on ANY HAWKE that is kind and understanding and accepting of him (pansexuality). Fenris will only take that dive if Hawke or Isabela pushes the subject. Merrill has no concept of sexuality at all unless your Hawke expresses interest.

Don't hate on the idea that your Hawke is charming enough to cause a crewmember to consider them worthy of their love. It's not "ALL LI ARE BI" but "YOUR HAWKE IS AWESOME ENOUGH TO LOVE"

;p

Modifié par Heidenreich, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:18 .

[EricHVela]

Heidenreich wrote...

Oh look, it's this thread!

Your arguments here have already been addressed in this thread.

[Ryzaki]

So has every other arguement. It's just ****** at this point.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[PinkDiamondstl]

I pray that they don't add the bi stuff in DA3. 

http://t3.gstatic.co...F_hHFPMkc-u41ZQ

Modifié par PinkDiamondstl, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[Knight of Dane]

Heidenreich wrote...
In fact it's  7 years deep into Kirkwall before he (as non-romanced) even considers it.

Not entirely true, you can get this dialogue from them in act 2:

Fenris: You keep staring at me. Is it my eyes again?
Isabela: You're very lanky, for an elf. I like lanky.
Fenris: From what I gather, you like a lot of things.
Isabela: Nonsense. But when I see something I like, I go after it.
(If Hawke is romancing Fenris)
Fenris: I suggest keeping your distance.
Isabela: Now you're just making it challenging.
(Otherwise)
Fenris: Do you intend to go after me, then?
Isabela: Will you take off all that spiky armor you're wearing?Fenris: It's been known to happen.
Isabela: Then forget it.
It's hesitant, but it's there. 

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:50 .

[labargegrrrl]

Nragedreaper wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

while i would love this forum if it was about INCLUSION of gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, androgyn, or any other intersection of gender interest or sexuality, it has become remarkably transparent that it is NOT about INCLUDING a more sexually diverse cast.

it is about EXCLUDING bisexual cast.

maybe we should start a forum based on who we INCLUDE and not who we REJECT?

It doesn't seem to be about excluding a bisexual cast, but including a exclusively straight, exclusively gay, and bisexual cast.  

i'd buy that...EXCEPT that the much of initial post and the vast majority of subsequent posts have been more about venting biaphobia all over the DA2 crew rather than honest discussion of what it would look like to have diversity in the next cast.  just sayin'.

ps- on a personal note:  you would prefer Isaballa's romance to Merril's?  RYFKM?!  i meen, whatever floats your boat and all, but i totally dug Merril's romance.