473 réponses à ce sujet

[labargegrrrl]

PizzaThe Hutt wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

As an aside, I bet there won't be ANY romances in the next game. You know, just to screw with us, and take revenge for all of these threads.

Maker no!  There'll be riots in the streets!

not that such stopped a good portion of our Hawkes from siding with the Circle!  lol!

[draken-heart]

i will use my own Hawke as an example. Gwendolyn was a flirt and a womanizer (a gay one at that). always had a different girl every evening and her mother knew about this ans was okay except she always hoped that Gwendolyn would settle down, even if it was with a girl. Enter Merrill. Merrill became kind of like a object of obsession to her. She knew about Merrill's obsession with her mirror and thought she could help her find another way. this would culminate into a fight then make-up sex and relationship with Merrill. Merrill probably never thought of another woman in a sexual/romantic sense before hawke, so it is possible that Merrill is actually a lesbian and never knew it till Hawke.

I like the all BI approach, but would be okay with the straight/bi/gay approach, but Merrill would have to be the lesbian and Aveline straight

Modifié par draken-heart, 28 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[Feuerwerke]

labargegrrrl is right. The problem here is that what people want is exclusion/restriction of bi options and it's all based in biphobia. It's not about inclusion at all. See PinkDiamondstl's reply for a prime example of what I mean.

These games are ones in which multiple different paths can happen, and you don't have to experience some of them if you don't want to. Using Origins for an example for a moment since it's fresh in my head, but Alistair and Anora can marry, but they don't have to if you don't want them to. Simple. It's the same sort of thing here. You don't want to experience an Anders or Fenris that's into dudes? Don't romance them with your male Hawke. Don't want to experience Merrill being into women? Don't romance her with your female Hawke. Obviously nothing can be done about Isabela, but honestly, if you're so damn homophobic/biphobic that even one bi character freaks you out, you probably should purge your own issues or kindly leave society rather than spewing your bigotry all over everyone else.

[draken-heart]

anyways this started because people wanted to romance Alistair and Morigan (i cannot remember her name's spelling) with a male and female warden, respectively.

[PizzaThe Hutt]

Feuerwerke wrote...

labargegrrrl is right. The problem here is that what people want is exclusion/restriction of bi options and it's all based in biphobia. It's not about inclusion at all. See PinkDiamondstl's reply for a prime example of what I mean.

These games are ones in which multiple different paths can happen, and you don't have to experience some of them if you don't want to. Using Origins for an example for a moment since it's fresh in my head, but Alistair and Anora can marry, but they don't have to if you don't want them to. Simple. It's the same sort of thing here. You don't want to experience an Anders or Fenris that's into dudes? Don't romance them with your male Hawke. Don't want to experience Merrill being into women? Don't romance her with your female Hawke. Obviously nothing can be done about Isabela, but honestly, if you're so damn homophobic/biphobic that even one bi character freaks you out, you probably should purge your own issues or kindly leave society rather than spewing your bigotry all over everyone else.

Whoa whoa settle, simply because someone doesn't want all of the LIs to be bi doesn't make them biphobic or hate bisexual people.  Simply spewing hatred at someone for their views on something that you don't agree with is doing the same thing as they are.  It's better to not take an aggressive edge to people especially in something that you want them to understand, be patient.  We are all works in progress though *shrug*

But anyways, I mean you no disrespect and I hope I have not offended

[Xilizhra]

Whoa whoa settle, simply because someone doesn't want all of the LIs to be bi doesn't make them biphobic or hate bisexual people. Simply spewing hatred at someone for their views on something that you don't agree with is doing the same thing as they are. It's better to not take an aggressive edge to people especially in something that you want them to understand, be patient. We are all works in progress though *shrug*

Not necessarily, but it's very often the case regardless. Her reaction is understandable, at least.

[Dwarva]

PizzaThe Hutt wrote...

Whoa whoa settle, simply because someone doesn't want all of the LIs to be bi doesn't make them biphobic or hate bisexual people.  Simply spewing hatred at someone for their views on something that you don't agree with is doing the same thing as they are.  It's better to not take an aggressive edge to people especially in something that you want them to understand, be patient.  We are all works in progress though *shrug*

But anyways, I mean you no disrespect and I hope I have not offended

Sadly this rebuttal attitude is why I'm a bit frightened to even comment on certain topics on here.

If me 'wondering' if all the love options being bi is truly representative of a normal group dynamic and being called biphobic as a result is how many people react (and it is) it makes me not want to even comment on the situation. It's a fairly standard response that's been thrown around the last couple of topics. And since I'm venomously supportive of people being able to live whatever life they want to live, it's incredibly hurtful to be branded as something based on a query.

I do genuinely wonder whether, in a group of 10 people, at least 5 being bi is a genuine representation of Thedas' culture, particularly given how few same sex couples (outwith companions/player characers) are shown. I can only think of one same sex couple NPCs that are shown. If more people are bi in Thedas' culture (as indicated by them all being bi) I do imagine we'd see more NPC same sex couples. But I don't think not wanting all the LIs to be bi is being anti-gay or anti-bi. In most peoples cases it's generally just that they want a realistic group dynamic and are questioning whether that's the case for Hawke and crew. *shrug*

Modifié par Staarbux, 31 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[Xilizhra]

This is more a matter of not enough same-sex couples being shown, either due to the developers not thinking of it or not wanting to make straight people uncomfortable (bizarrely, ME3 is actually better at this, so this could be a positive indicator for DA3). Regardless, I doubt one's companions are supposed to be true representations of Thedas' culture, since certainly the vast majority of people you meet aren't powerful warriors/rogues/mages.

[Sylvanpyxie]

I've often found "choice" is the biggest reason for want of Bi-Sexual companions.

Understandable opinion, to be sure.

I grew up playing Role-Playing Games that offered nothing in the way of romance choices for women, and boasted almost triple the number of available romances for men. Of course, RPGs grew with me and i got to witness the first Bioware game to offer gay/bi sexual options and that was awesome.

I mean, it really was. I'm a huge supporter of choice and people who boast different sexuality to myself deserve just as much choice as i do.

The problem i have with the Dragon Age II format is quite simply the fact that sexuality is used as a fan-service. It was a case of "please all and be done".

Sexuality *is* a part of who we are as people, our attraction to people is what drives us to take a romantic interest, and i don't understand why it should be written any differently. I'm not saying that characters should be defined by their sexuality, but i do believe that sexual attraction should be a factor in their personality, not just tacked on for the sake of pleasing as many people as possible.

I don't think we should give up choice, i really don't. I'm not asking for "MOER STRAIT CHARS". What i'm asking for is quality character writing. Writing that acknowledges attraction as a factor in personality, so that the romantic interest of a companion doesn't feel like a tacked on crowd pleaser.

I'll try to be a little more clear i guess - I've met more than a few women who are bi-sexual or gay. Not all of them have thrown themselves at my feet demanding that i make sweet, sweet, love to them. Purely because i'm not their type. Attraction is a large factor in romantic interest and it should be treated as such.

Too Long? Didn't Read? The Short Version - The sexuality of the characters doesn't matter, but attraction to the Main Character really should be treated better as a whole.

It's a crazy opinion - but there you go.

Apologies if it's a bit disjointed. I took a break while writing, to get a sandwich.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 31 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .

[Xilizhra]

So it's not bisexuality that's a problem, just people not saying why they're attracted to the PC well enough? That's more understandable, though it seems to be a perennial issue in most games with romances.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Just people not saying why they're attracted to the PC well enough?

It's more the fact that, despite obvious personality clashes and completely different opinions, a romantic companion character in Dragon Age II will always remain attracted to Hawke.

The only one that doesn't is Sebastian, and that's only because you may have flirted with other companions.

Personality should always be a factor in attraction and in Dragon Age II, personality just didn't matter. All the bi-sexual romance options will *always* remain sexually and romantically attached to Hawke.

Hawke could throw their most prized possessions off a cliff and they'd still be trying to jump into his/her bed. Hawke could kill a bunny right infront of Merrill then rub her face in it and she'd still be after Sexy-Times.

It's just unrealistic.

Edit: I should probably point out that the *only* time the attraction will end is if Hawke ends it.

So no, it's not the sexuality that's the problem, at least not for me. It's the complete lack of care that Bioware put into it.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 31 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .

[Xilizhra]

For Fenris and Anders, sexual attraction was only brought up at the very beginning of their time with Hawke. For Merrill, it never comes at all if you don't flirt with her. Isabela is just naturally flirty.

Also, personality never matters for whatever reason. It certainly didn't in ME, and in DAO, all you need is gifts to make it irrelevant as well.

[The Uncanny]

Staarbux wrote...

In most peoples cases it's generally just that they want a realistic group dynamic and are questioning whether that's the case for Hawke and crew. *shrug*

But if that content only manifests if you play as the same sex and deliberately flirt... what difference does it make?

Modifié par The Uncanny, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .

[Dwarva]

Because it's still there whether or not you pursue it I guess. Depends how you see it.

If you ignore Aveline's quest in Act 2 say, do you assume she doesn't have feelings for Donnic because they're not expressed ingame and you've not pursued it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not necessarily someone for whom this bothers. All I think is that I can understand why some people think it isn't entirely representative of Thedas' culture.

[Xilizhra]

I consider the "culture" argument irrelevant. Ultimately, it's entirely about player choice to me, and I don't see why it needs to be restricted in this way.

[The Uncanny]

Staarbux wrote...

Because it's still there whether or not you pursue it I guess. Depends how you see it.

If you ignore Aveline's quest in Act 2 say, do you assume she doesn't have feelings for Donnic because they're not expressed ingame and you've not pursued it?

But wouldn't the point in that instance be that you wouldn't know?

If you continually flirt with her as a woman character the quest ends with her saying something along the lines of "Hey, did you ever consider you and I...?"

Does that alter your perception of Aveline? Should it?

[Dwarva]

I guess it's just hard for me to 'not assume' these things now I know all of the game, IYKWIM? I think it depends whether you think of the game as a collection of individual playthroughs, or if you think the whole universe is what it is over the course of ALL your playthroughs. Does that make any sense?

It doesn't alter my perception of Aveline no. But I guess that's because she's not necessarily expressing an interest in Hawke. I always assumed that she suddenly became conscious of Hawke flirting with her and it was her way of asking if Hawke was interested? But that could just be me.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Also, personality never matters for whatever reason.

Which, as i stated, is my personal problem.

It certainly didn't in ME

You're right, it certainly didn't. 1 Straight Romance each and a Bi-Sexual Romance and none of them were really that put off if you clashed on personality. The thing is with Mass Effect though is that with any given character you only had 2 romances available at once, it was a much smaller romantic scale.

In Dragon Age II, however, the scale is much bigger. There are 4 Romantic Companions, which is already 2 more than you'd have in Mass Effect, all of which are Bi-Sexual and available to all created Hawkes, which instantly puts the number above Mass Effect.

With a larger number of romances available, the flaw is more obvious. The central plot of Dragon Age II didn't help either, with the entire Mage and Templar conflict, personalities were clashing almost constantly and not in minor ways either.

In Dragon Age II you are, quite literally, challenging the very core aspect of the characters. You're opposing their beliefs and shattering their personal missions and they will still love you forever. I'm sorry, but that is hardly comparable to the differences between Mass Effect characters.

In Origins, i know for a fact, Alistair would end a romantic relationship with the Warden if certain conversation choices were chosen. Certain personality clashes would just, stop the romance dead in it's tracks. Even if you back tracked and apologised to him it would still be over. It's things like this that i'm really asking for.

As i've said. I'm not against Bi-Sexual romance options, the problem is the flaws in personality that lead to highly unrealistic, and borderline idiotic, attractions.

It's a classic Bioware mistake, but Dragon Age II made their mistake more obvious because the scale for screwing up was much larger than previous titles.

My opinion, really, is entirely off-topic for this thread, so i'll just end my rant with - CHOICE IS GOOD.

Edit for a final word: Bi-Sexual characters are great. But Bioware really need to up their writing quality.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

And why is it that this content would make anyone uncomfortable in the first place? I quite frankly don't buy that it's ever just cultural issues except for a few rabidly dedicated people whose immersion is that easily broken. Some form of ******/biphobia is, regrettably, quite common still even among those who don't admit it.

[Dwarva]

^ Oh well hell if we're talking about personality combinations making NO sense that's a whole other debate lol. Because I absolutely agree there were some couplings in DA that should never have happened depending on your character archetype.

Xilizhra wrote...

And why is it that this content would
make anyone uncomfortable in the first place? I quite frankly don't buy
that it's ever just cultural issues except for a few rabidly dedicated
people whose immersion is that easily broken. Some form of ******/biphobia
is, regrettably, quite common still even among those who don't admit
it.

Who's saying it makes them uncomfortable? Just because they want one thing doesn't mean they HATE the other thing.

And given that I suspect that last line is a thinly veiled attempt to call me homophobic/biphobic I am, once again, out of the conversation.

Modifié par Staarbux, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .

[Xilizhra]

And why is it that this content would make anyone uncomfortable in the first place? I quite frankly don't buy that it's ever just cultural issues except for a few rabidly dedicated people whose immersion is that easily broken. Some form of ******/biphobia is, regrettably, quite common still even among those who don't admit it.

You're right, it certainly didn't. 1 Straight Romance each and a Bi-Sexual Romance and none of them were really that put off if you clashed on personality. The thing is with Mass Effect though is that with any given character you only had 2 romances available at once, it was a much smaller romantic scale.

Actually, you can have four introduced in ME2, Then one more of each by ME3, so the final total is seven (and actually eight for Maleshep because of Kaidan).

In Dragon Age II you are, quite literally, challenging the very core aspect of the characters. You're opposing their beliefs and shattering their personal missions and they will still love you forever. I'm sorry, but that is hardly comparable to the Mass Effect characters.

That's because of the rivalry system in particular. In any case, you don't do that with Fenris or Isabela, though I agree that the Merrill and Anders rivalmances are repugnant.

Who's saying it makes them uncomfortable? Just because they want one thing doesn't mean they HATE the other thing.

And
given that I suspect that last line is a thinly veiled attempt to call
me homophobic/biphobic I am, once again, out of the conversation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said that you weren't uncomfortable with this.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[Dwarva]

I'm not uncomfortable with it. Of course I'm not. But when people start saying things like 'it's probably homophobia' when they have no idea what a person's personal beliefs are it just reeks of 'I don't agree/understand their point of view so its probably X'. Which doesn't make sense to me...

Modifié par Staarbux, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[Milan92]

[LobselVith8]

I agree about the archetype, Staarbux. I see a big problem with companions being attracted to Hawke if he does things that they find to be repellant. Why would Anders be attracted to Hawke if he supports the Chantry controlled Circles, and wants to stop a mage rebellion from emancipating Anders' people? Why would Fenris be in love with Hawke if he supported slavery and had a slave himself? I can see the problem with companions being attracted to Hawke no matter what he does, or who he (or she) is.