37 réponses à ce sujet

[cowoline]

Hey.

I am getting confused by the concept of mage marrige. Illegal or not?
In Origins a banter between Alistair and Wynne suggests that it isn't illegal, but is "just" strongly discouraged. Then in DA II we have Hawke's parents who were married. I am geussing that they were wed in secret and the revered mother who wed them didn't know Malcolm was a mage.

But here is the rub, when Anders mentions it in DAII he makes it sound as if it is illegal.

Am I overthinking this, since this puzzels me?

[berelinde]

Mages are rarely (but not never) allowed to marry with special dispensation from the Chantry. Wilhelm, Mathias's mage father in the Stone Prisoner was the same Wilhelm who helped Maric regain the throne in the Stolen Throne. Presumably, he got wedlock for good behavior. He was also permitted to keep his mage son, although given the remoteness of Honneth, it's debatable as to whether anybody official ever knew that Mathias even existed, let alone that he was a mage.

Wynne was not given permission to marry her lover or raise her child, but whether that is because of her status as a Circle mage or because of the profession of the child's father... who knows?

Malcolm and Leandra Hawke eloped and kept Malcolm's profession a secret, so even if they had a Chantry wedding (Thedas marriages seem to be largely Common Law), it's unlikely that the officiant ever knew.

[cowoline]

Good... then I did get it right. Thank you for clarifying

[berelinde]

While we are on the subject, mages are not allowed to inherit property, which is why Redcliffe fell to Teagan after Eamon's death. That is also the basis for my suspicion that nobody ever knew about Mathias. The villagers in Honnleath (spelled it wrong before) are used to having a mage in residence and nobody felt the need to turn the boy over to the templars. Considering that everyone who survived the darkspawn attack fled to Mathias for protection, I'd say that Honnleath is a fine example of how apostate mages *can* be integrated into society to no one's detriment. Granted, there was a demon in the basement, but Kitty was summoned by Wilhelm, not Mathias.

[sylvanaerie]

Matthias was not a mage. He just knew how to activate his father's defenses, which anyone could do with the right passwords. He was a mage blood child but not an actively awakened mage.

[berelinde]

He says that he constructed the barrier to keep the darkspawn out and he modified it to allow the Warden through. He was a mage.

[sylvanaerie]

*shrug* I got the impression during the conversation that it was something his father built/made that he just activated with the right passwords. He doesn't allow the Warden entry as much as he completely shuts it off.  (everyone else goes running out of it when they hear it's safe again).  Just as he could have used the golem control rod despite not being a mage just by knowing the proper phrase to control her. (of course we all know how that ended for Wilhelm).

I doubt the chantry would have let Wilhelm keep an active mage child and its not like with Malcolm who was an active apostate hiding himself and Bethany (and Hawke if he/she is a mage as well). Wilhelm was quite out in the open (even if he was off the beaten path so to speak). You can bet they kept an eye on him and his family even if he had won his 'freedom'. Any magely tendancies would have been grounds for immediate removal of the child.

Perhaps if he was a mage, it was with very low level of skill/abilities that it went unnoticed. Or being off the beaten path. Or someone in the chantry in town was sleeping on the job. Or maybe the darkspawn invasion triggered his abilities.

In my convo with him I got no mage vibes at all from Matthias, but that is just my opinion.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 02 juin 2012 - 10:49 .

[LobselVith8]

Children of mages belong to the Chantry, which is why Wynne had to give up her son. Gaider said Grey Wardens were an exception. Considering Wilhelm is living outside the Circle Tower with a wife and son, he probably had a royal boon and asked for his freedom for his service in the Orlesian occupation.

Whether his son was a mage or not wouldn't matter. As Gaider said, married or not, the children of mages are taken by the Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 juin 2012 - 11:20 .

[cowoline]

And once again I am wondering why it took tha mages over a thousand years to rebel. Poor sods.

[Emzamination]

berelinde wrote...

He says that he constructed the barrier to keep the darkspawn out and he modified it to allow the Warden through. He was a mage.

No, he did not say that.He says he activated the barrier to keep the darkspawn out.

[Apathy1989]

cowoline wrote...

And once again I am wondering why it took tha mages over a thousand years to rebel. Poor sods.

Pretty much.

[cowoline]

Btw anyone know how much the rules within the circle changes when you give it its autonomy?
Is it the same just without any templars?

[Emzamination]

cowoline wrote...

Btw anyone know how much the rules within the circle changes when you give it its autonomy?
Is it the same just without any templars?

It becomes an imperium which is by it's very nature lawless.

[LobselVith8]

cowoline wrote...

Btw anyone know how much the rules within the circle changes when you give it its autonomy?
Is it the same just without any templars?

Gaider responded to this inquiry in "Might the Magi Boon of DA:O play a role in DA2 or continue to be ignored?"

Basically, nothing changes:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

[cowoline]

Sad... I'm really looking forward to DAIII. Hopefully we will be able to kick some chantry a**!

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

cowoline wrote...

Btw anyone know how much the rules within the circle changes when you give it its autonomy?
Is it the same just without any templars?

Gaider responded to this inquiry in "Might the Magi Boon of DA:O play a role in DA2 or continue to be ignored?"

Basically, nothing changes:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

??? The magi boon isn't being ignored.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

??? The magi boon isn't being ignored.

That was the title of my thread, where Gaider responded with the quote I used above.

Considering that the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form if The Warden asks for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry, and not one person at the royal ceremony doubts the Magi boon but treats it as a given (like Irving), Gaider's response comes across as a recton.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

??? The magi boon isn't being ignored.

That was the title of my thread, where Gaider responded with the quote I used above.

Considering that the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form if The Warden asks for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry, and not one person at the royal ceremony doubts the Magi boon but treats it as a given (like Irving), Gaider's response comes across as a recton.

Alistair's response in Da2 is different from davids in response to the boon.Why would anyone doubt or deny anything to the person who just saved their skins? nothing odd there

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Alistair's response in Da2 is different from davids in response to the boon.Why would anyone doubt or deny anything to the person who just saved their skins? nothing odd there

First, I created that thread over a year ago, prior to the release of Dragon Age 2. Not sure why you took issue with the title of my thread before.

Second, Anora and Alistair publicly agree with the Hero of Ferelden. No character voices it as something that would need Chantry approval. Not even Irving.

Third, there's the issue of no independent Circle of Orzammar if the Magi boon is selected.

Fourth, we already have prior rectons with Cullen, Oghren, Justice, Anders, and Leliana. There is a precedece for the developers changing what was previously established.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Alistair's response in Da2 is different from davids in response to the boon.Why would anyone doubt or deny anything to the person who just saved their skins? nothing odd there

First, I created that thread over a year ago, prior to the release of Dragon Age 2. Not sure why you took issue with the title of my thread before.

Second, Anora and Alistair publicly agree with the Hero of Ferelden. No character voices it as something that would need Chantry approval. Not even Irving.

Third, there's the issue of no independent Circle of Orzammar if the Magi boon is selected.

Fourth, we already have prior rectons with Cullen, Oghren, Justice, Anders, and Leliana. There is a precedece for the developers changing what was previously established.

I would've taken issue earlier but then again this is the first I'm seeing of it existence.

It wasn't something that needed to be voiced, it's a given.The chantry has held the mage leash for over one thousand years, you really think they would just let them go that easy?

The independent circle in orzamar is formed as type of rebellion.If your chosen monarch has given you aindependent circle of your own, what need is there for two?

Putting aside how insignifigant cullen and justice part was in the dao franchise, what retcon are you referring to?

Oghren was retconed? 

[LobselVith8]

 

Emzamination wrote...

I would've taken issue earlier but then again this is the first I'm seeing of it existence.

Since it was ignored in Awakening and Witch Hunt, I don't see why you would.

Emzamination wrote...

It wasn't something that needed to be voiced, it's a given.The chantry has held the mage leash for over one thousand years, you really think they would just let them go that easy?

Since you can ask for the independence of your people as a mage, I respectfully disagree.

Emzamination wrote...

The independent circle in orzamar is formed as type of rebellion.If your chosen monarch has given you aindependent circle of your own, what need is there for two?

Since the Chantry said no, your statement doesn't really make sense.

Emzamination wrote...

Putting aside how insignifigant cullen and justice part was in the dao franchise, what retcon are you referring to?

Oghren was retconed? 

Oghren can return from the dead in Awakening, and they are rectons regardless of what how you regard the changes.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 

Emzamination wrote...

I would've taken issue earlier but then again this is the first I'm seeing of it existence.

Since it was ignored in Awakening and Witch Hunt, I don't see why you would.

Emzamination wrote...

It wasn't something that needed to be voiced, it's a given.The chantry has held the mage leash for over one thousand years, you really think they would just let them go that easy?

Since you can ask for the independence of your people as a mage, I respectfully disagree.

Emzamination wrote...

The independent circle in orzamar is formed as type of rebellion.If your chosen monarch has given you aindependent circle of your own, what need is there for two?

Since the Chantry said no, your statement doesn't really make sense.

Emzamination wrote...

Putting aside how insignifigant cullen and justice part was in the dao franchise, what retcon are you referring to?

Oghren was retconed? 

Oghren can return from the dead in Awakening, and they are rectons regardless of what how you regard the changes.

The topic never comes up in awakening unless you're referring to your talk with wynne.I'm not sure what you're reffering to in WH.

Yes, you ask your monarch to help you, I don't see how making a request negates the chantry from saying no.You can ask for quite a few forbidden things like holding a title which mages are not allowed to do.

The chantry said no but the boon is still granted in da2

Didn't know that, never killed oghren, thanks for the info.

Unless it was a retcon with significance there is no point wasting time on it. David Gaider said all epilogues are rumors and hearsay anyway if that's what you're referring to. 

Modifié par Emzamination, 03 juin 2012 - 08:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

The topic never comes up in awakening unless you're referring to your talk with wynne.I'm not sure what you're reffering to in WH.

The topic never comes up, at all - which is the entire problem. The Magi boon is ignored.

Emzamination wrote...

Yes, you ask your monarch to help you, I don't see how making a request negates the chantry from saying no.You can ask for quite a few forbidden things like holding a title which mages are not allowed to do.

No, you ask for your people to be given their freedom, the new ruler declares that this will happen. The US actually has Alistair or Anora order Greagoir to free the mages once the new Tower is built.

Emzamination wrote...

The chantry said no but the boon is still granted in da2

No, it isn't. Gaider's comment makes that clear, as does Act III's quest with an Origins' character.

Emzamination wrote...

Didn't know that, never killed oghren, thanks for the info.

Unless it was a retcon with significance there is no point wasting time on it. David Gaider said all epilogues are rumors and hearsay anyway if that's what you're referring to. 

That's a fancy way of saying recton.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The topic never comes up in awakening unless you're referring to your talk with wynne.I'm not sure what you're reffering to in WH.

The topic never comes up, at all - which is the entire problem. The Magi boon is ignored.

Emzamination wrote...

Yes, you ask your monarch to help you, I don't see how making a request negates the chantry from saying no.You can ask for quite a few forbidden things like holding a title which mages are not allowed to do.

No, you ask for your people to be given their freedom, the new ruler declares that this will happen. The US actually has Alistair or Anora order Greagoir to free the mages once the new Tower is built.

Emzamination wrote...

The chantry said no but the boon is still granted in da2

No, it isn't. Gaider's comment makes that clear, as does Act III's quest with an Origins' character.

Emzamination wrote...

Didn't know that, never killed oghren, thanks for the info.

Unless it was a retcon with significance there is no point wasting time on it. David Gaider said all epilogues are rumors and hearsay anyway if that's what you're referring to. 

That's a fancy way of saying recton.

Aside from the fact there was no catalyst for it, none of the boons came up except the one which couldn't be ignored.

Alistair and Anora making a declaration does not mean the matter is closed.A perfect example of this is when the chantry supersedes the crown's direct order regardining anders.The chantry has existed for one thousand years and their power base is far stronger and stretches far wider than a newly elected monarch.

I've played act 3 with an origin's import and meredith's statement proves it was granted.

No, that's just a fancy way of saying Dao was originally intended to be one game but since it was so well received, bioware decided to make a sequel.Any retcon they make to Dao is justified in that regard.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Aside from the fact there was no catalyst for it, none of the boons came up except the one which couldn't be ignored.

Magi boon was ignored in narratives that dealt with Circle mages, and I see that as an issue.

Emzamination wrote...

Alistair and Anora making a declaration does not mean the matter is closed.A perfect example of this is when the chantry supersedes the crown's direct order regardining anders.The chantry has existed for one thousand years and their power base is far stronger and stretches far wider than a newly elected monarch.

Rylock tried to commit murder. Her actions don't appear to have been sanctioned in the warehouse, and Grey Wardens don't operate under the auspices of the Chantry. See Gsider's quote about the children of mages above to see shy Grey Warden mages don't have to surrender their children to the Chantry.

Emzamination wrote...

I've played act 3 with an origin's import and meredith's statement proves it was granted.

You heard wrong then, because Gaider's quote above confirms that it wasn't granted.

Emzamination wrote...

No, that's just a fancy way of saying Dao was originally intended to be one game but since it was so well received, bioware decided to make a sequel.Any retcon they make to Dao is justified in that regard.

When it negates player choice, I respectfully disagree.