180 réponses à ce sujet

[Armondram99]

 All over BSN I keep seeing people comment about a scrapped Dark Energy plot. I remember the Haelstrom mission in ME2 revolving around something like that but that is all. Can somebody please explain this for me?

[CmndrFisher]

This might help:

http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings

[friendlybatarian]

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

[Tommyspa]

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

That is exactly how I feel about it. The conflict should not be about saving the universe from some unmotivated invisible thing.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 03 juin 2012 - 02:58 .

[suprhomre]

I don't get it how can creating a Reaper stop dark energy?

[AlanC9]

suprhomre wrote...

I don't get it how can creating a Reaper stop dark energy?

In another interview --sorry, but I don't have the link handy -- it sounded like the point of the Reapers is that they have the combined intelligence, creativity, etc., of the organics who are processed to make up that Reaper. So the idea is that more Reapers = more brainpower turned to finding a solution to the dark energy problem.

SF fans may recognize this plotline as a twisted version of Frederik Pohl's Heechee series (Gateway et seq.), where an unknown force is altering the entire universe in order to make it inhospitable to organic life, and destroying any organics who become advanced enough to interfere with the plan.

And yes, this would have been a worse ending than what we actually got.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[Lasien]

I had heard of this, but I hadn't seen his explanation. I have to agree that that ending would have been worse. I don't really have a problem with the concept of the current endings, but they just feel rushed. And again, I don't really have a problem with the starchild, but he feels rushed as well. Much like Benezia in ME1. To me, it felt like Benezia (and the starchild) were supposed to be encountered at least a couple of times before the final fight (or meeting) but the time just ran out. That would have fleshed them both out more, and made the encounters make mores sense.

[Dexi]

I also agree. A lot worse.

[CmndrFisher]

Lasien wrote...

 Much like Benezia in ME1. .

At least with Benezia, we had a bit of back story about her before the Noveria mission, especially if we recruited Liara before hand.  With the starchild, well, the little brat just shows up with no warning. 

I do agree though, to certain degree, with you.  It might have been a good idea to have an encounter or two with her prior to the Noveria "boss/brute" battle with her.

[CmndrFisher]

I'm of two minds about this...sure the story behind Karpyshyn's original idea could be fleshed out more.  But think about it:

"The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

Shep could have stopped the Reapers (from processing humanity) in a great battle...The Battle for Earth/Retake Earth...then having done that, without interference from the kid or being sidelined by any space magic, the story moves or is continued on to defeat the Dark Energy threat. 

Say, for instance, Shep is victorious in defeating the Reapers but becomes incapcitated or dies in the process...thus ending the Shepard arc of the Mass Effect story.  But the Dark Energy threat remains and we could have had an instant seguay into another installment of the story with Shep's successor taking up the reigns to rid the galalxy of all that threatens it.

 I think this could have worked much better than what we got.

Modifié par CmndrFisher, 03 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[Pride Demon]

I hear a lot of people saying this would have been worse than what we actually got...
Given this I have a question...

Why?

[Sejborg]

 Dark energy? Sounds like space magic to me. 

[jojon2se]

suprhomre wrote...

I don't get it how can creating a Reaper stop dark energy?

My favoured speculation is that that is more about buying time; Another 49000 years, during which entropy increase is kept at a minimum, due to restricted use of mass effect technology.

The Reapers (or "arks", or "seed vaults", sort of, preserving some small something of harvested races) hibernate, in order to make no expenditure themselves, and give the "chaos" of evolution roughly 50000 years to come up with a solution, for them, or at least an idea towards one -- 50000 simply because that's the time it generally seems to take for life and society to advance to a certain point in the premise of the ME universe.

As to why they manipulate to incite wars (EDIT: ...in light of such a... relatively "benevolent" purpose...), I suppose they reckon that such drives innovation...

There is no need for humanity to be special - we're just the fruit of another cycle.


http://www.multivax....t_question.html

Modifié par jojon2se, 03 juin 2012 - 09:57 .

[Dezerte]

Sounds better to me.

Obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit more though.

[NRieh]

Shep could have stopped the Reapers (from processing humanity) in a great battle...The Battle for Earth/Retake Earth...then having done that, without interference from the kid or being sidelined by any space magic, the story moves or is continued on to defeat the Dark Energy threat.

Actually, this scenario very likely involves "ME4: find the Dark Power Switch and Turn It Off".

I just happened to replay yesterday Tali's missions in ME2, those were apparently given as an intro for something. Probably, a DLC that never happened (and unlikely to happen now), or even ME3 ending. The overall idea seems to have more inner logic then "organics may occasionally create synthetics that will wipe organics, so we'd rather wipe the organics ourselves so that they won't create those synthetics". But it all highly depends on how could it be worked into story. All we know - is just a concept, not some kind of final cuts.

[Feanor_II]

The Dark energy could have played a role in ME3.... But this proposal is totally idiotic.....
An enemy that in reallity is a galactic phenomenon, with no conscience, no motivations......
..... How genociding entire civilizations to construct masive battleships can help from stopping this phenomenon?
.... It's as stupid as a game were you have to stop the winds because hurricane are destructive.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 03 juin 2012 - 10:20 .

[cindercatz]

Except that dark energy is real, and the entropic principle is an actual thing, and there's an actual, eons down the road supposed deadline. So yes, this is much, much smarter than what we got. You'd still have to beat the Reapers. I think the IT should have played into it like it should play in now. I don't think humans should be particularly special in the story, genetically or otherwise. Why so? Because we like to think everything centers around us? So the human reaper is still a bad idea, but otherwise, it's better than what we got, and if you let character and choices on display play into both the actual ending and the epilogue, it's much better than what we've got. If you do all that and preserve the relays for future games, is perfect, or perfect enough.

* what might have been :-/

edit: Well, dark energy has no motivation. It's the universal constant, by another name. It just is. But it would have given the Reapers themselves purpose and a believable explanation, not to mention maintained their autonomy. The Reapers are the enemy, not dark energy. Dark energy to the universe would be seen like a comet headed toward your planet, and the question is what do you do about it.

Modifié par cindercatz, 03 juin 2012 - 10:35 .

[wright1978]

Dezman8 wrote...

Sounds better to me.

Obviously needs to be fleshed out a bit more though.

Yep this. Plus it is also foreshadowed in ME2. Seems a lot more like a scientific explanation than the indealogical zealotry of created will destroy creators.

Modifié par wright1978, 03 juin 2012 - 10:34 .

[Drake-Shepard]

i admit it doesn't sound any better then what we got. But atleast it was forshadowed in ME2 and it has the potential to not contradict other story arcs in the game.

Dark energy is taking over...it's almost too late then humans are found.
Remember mordin telling us how genetically diverse humans are...
and the fact that the reapers can't wait to start reaping humans, because apparently humans are so diverse and special their combined intelligence in reaper form could find a solution.

They believe this so much they risk exposing themselves by getting collectors to start early.
and when they fail , harbinger says ' we will find another way'. the human reaper is top priority,

the dark energy with Haemstron's sun also in tali's recruitment mission in ME2 supports this. The system being on the very edge of the galaxy happens to be the first to be seeing these weird dark energy effects?

The ending: at the end is a choice to reaperfy humans or to try to find the solution your self...


yeah this might seem lame but if the dark energy was going to be the ending there would be a lot of foreshadowing (learning curve ME1 style) and development of other themes such as ; are the reaper's good?, what does it mean to be alive, what sacrifice is worth it... is living in reaper form really living or something.

Heck... maybe you would sacrifice earth or 1 billion humans (to make that human reaper) to save all the the other species in the galaxy. (the aliens you have made friends with).

The point is it may not of sounded so silly and everything you would of learned would of led you to this final decision.

ME3 ending is crap because it's not forshadowed well, not mentioned in ME1,2, contradicts the geth story arc. Dark energy would not suffer these problems

[The Razman]

Yeah, I think they realised in ME3 that they were heading towards a conclusion which ... didn't conclude anything. You end up not solving anything by beating the Reapers because Dark Energy will kill us all soon, and with it being the last game in the trilogy, that's a huge piece of unfinished business that I can see them not figuring out how to turn around. Which is a shame, because its really one of the only explanations which makes any kind of sense for the Human Reaper at the end of ME2.

What we got at least gives you a conclusion to the story. You have to gloss over some of what happened in ME2 for it to consistently fit, but it's better than what we were heading for with this Dark Energy stuff.

[Dexi]

If Dark Energy makes the Universe go bye-bye, why in the world would you force every galactic civilization, across hundreds of million/billion years to use Mass Effec tech, that generates Dark Energy?

If the ancient race who started the whole cycle thing had foreshadowed the Ending of the Universe in some million years, in those million years they could've found alternative technology, that does not create Dark Energy, or even create something to beat it back, rather than force the Galaxy to CREATE Dark Energy for those millions of years, seriously agravating the problem, hoping somehow at one unknowable point the problem will be solved.

People arguing Reapers killing organics to save organics is illogical should ( if their opinion is unbiased) see this equally illogical, because, in a similar fashion, Reapers force organics to create Dark Energy to save them from Dark Energy.

Also, how would this Dark Energy manifest itself? How would it destroy the Universe, in what manner? It must be extremely subtle, because at least this cycle should have observed it's effects until now ( unless, conviniently, almost NO scientist in the whole Galaxy dug anything on it, making it bad writting). So, how?  Same manner as the Crucible shoots its beams and solves everything? Space Magic?



Not saying the current ending is a masterpiece, but Reapers apparently being stupid ( though in my opinion only, killing advanced organics to save all ( primitive) organic life-forms
from the advanced ones' creations , ensuring organic continuity is better than creating Dark Energy to save Universe from Dark Energy ) and space magic ( human Reaper saves Universe with Space Magic, Catalyst saves Galaxy with Space Magic) are present in both endings.

Modifié par Dexi, 03 juin 2012 - 11:07 .

[Drake-Shepard]

Dexi wrote...

If Dark Energy makes the Universe go bye-bye, why in the world would you force every galactic civilization, across hundreds of million/billion years to use Mass Effec tech, that generates Dark Energy?

If the ancient race who started the whole cycle thing had foreshadowed the Ending of the Universe in some million years, in those million years they could've found alternative technology, that does not create Dark Energy, or even create something to beat it back, rather than force the Galaxy to CREATE Dark Energy for those millions of years, seriously agravating the problem, hoping somehow at one unknowable point the problem will be solved.

People arguing Reapers killing organics to save organics is illogical should ( if their opinion is unbiased) see this equally illogical, because, in a similar fashion, Reapers force organics to create Dark Energy to save them from Dark Energy.

Also, how would this Dark Energy manifest itself? How would it destroy the Universe, in what manner? It must be extremely subtle, because at least this cycle should have observed it's effects until now ( unless, conviniently, almost NO scientist in the whole Galaxy dug anything on it, making it bad writting). So, how?  Same manner as the Crucible shoots its beams and solves everything? Space Magic?



Not saying the current ending is a masterpiece, but Reapers apparently being stupid ( though in my opinion only, killing advanced organics to save all ( primitive) organic life-forms
from the advanced ones' creations , ensuring organic continuity is better than creating Dark Energy to save Universe from Dark Energy ) and space magic ( human Reaper saves Universe with Space Magic, Catalyst saves Galaxy with Space Magic) are present in both endings.

No1 can be 100% sure exactly how dark energy is released because BW never revealed it.

Maybe the reapers put the relays everywhere so species that advance would use them...instead of developing individual super mass relay drive cores per ship that would cause much much more dark energy then relays would. 

The reapers also needed to create an environment where the species have a greater understanding of mass effect tech so their reaper forms can help solve it. Also they needed a trap so they could gather intel and reaperify anyone that can help, hence all roads lead to citadel.

There, that tooks me 30 seconds to think up.

[Dezerte]

To explain my position further, I'll explain why the dark energy story is better:

Dark Energy is real

It paints the Reapers as a sort of necessary evil, they may be killing billions of organics but they are slowing down the effects of dark energy. It gives you an interesting dilemma, do you sacrifice humanity and hope it will stop dark energy or do choose to destroy the Reapers and hope that you can figure out a solution yourself.

The star-child story is nothing but full of plot holes and illogical reasoning and events (yay space magic).

[Feanor_II]

cindercatz wrote...

Except that dark energy is real, and the entropic principle is an actual thing, and there's an actual, eons down the road supposed deadline. So yes, this is much, much smarter than what we got. You'd still have to beat the Reapers. I think the IT should have played into it like it should play in now. I don't think humans should be particularly special in the story, genetically or otherwise. Why so? Because we like to think everything centers around us? So the human reaper is still a bad idea, but otherwise, it's better than what we got, and if you let character and choices on display play into both the actual ending and the epilogue, it's much better than what we've got. If you do all that and preserve the relays for future games, is perfect, or perfect enough.

* what might have been :-/

edit: Well, dark energy has no motivation. It's the universal constant, by another name. It just is. But it would have given the Reapers themselves purpose and a believable explanation, not to mention maintained their autonomy. The Reapers are the enemy, not dark energy. Dark energy to the universe would be seen like a comet headed toward your planet, and the question is what do you do about it.

First of all we should not confuse Dark Energy with Antimatter...... I don't know much about the subject (my elder brother is more into that, I'm more for History).

OK, that has a scientifical basis..... but a few notes:
- Like it or not synthetics Vs organics is a subject that has been more present in previous games than Dark Energy had (only strated to be hinted in ME2), in ME1 it was even the central subject
- While it could be a good "plot asset" that premise of creating reapers to stop Dark energy it's simply absurd!:
> OK a civilization creates a hell of a technology
> Latter they discover that it's usage consumes the Galaxy or Universe......
> .............. so instead of stop using that technology, disable Mass Relays, investigate alternatives and leave messages in that direction for future civilizations.........
> ......... they sacrifice themselves to construct massive battleships that make even a greater use of than lethal technology and leave Mass Effect tech pieces scatered through the galaxy as lures for other civilization an periodicaly slaughter them brutally to construct other ships
> After each slaughtering they dissapear on the edge of the galaxy and enter "stand-by" mode.
- Not to tell that IMO it's stuppid trying to "stop Dark Energy", as I said it's like stopping the wind because of hurricanes.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 03 juin 2012 - 11:36 .