180 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluko]

Dark Energy could be an interesting plot development... but not if it makes the Reapers the "good guys". Because then we seemingly become the backward primitives. In many senses it invalidates Shepard as a hero if his/her quest never served any meaningful purpose. (Which is sort of the issue with the current endings.)

Personally I prefer the Reapers remain malovent. For starters it's better for the series integrity that they remain the "big bad". One of the worst things you can do with a fictional setting is continually create bigger evils simply to draw out the storyline in attempts to outstage the last act. This is fine if it is planned and established in a way that flows naturally. The other thing is it cheapens the value of Shepard's exodus knowing the fought against the lesser evil. It would also be best IMO if the Reapers remain the central atangonists of Mass Effect. The Reapers have simply been built up as such omni-potent beings it would be laughable to create something bigger then them.


I'm fine with Dark Energy being a part of the Reaper's grander schemes to control the universe. (Might also resonate well with T.I.M.'s beliefs of control.) Hence it is something even the Reapers still don't fully understand. I believe this would somewhat validate the Human Reaper as supposedly Humans are very adept at harnessing Dark Energy via Biotics. However going with the idea only the Human race can save the Galaxy is going a bit too far. Makes us way too special and the last thing that should be ever be encouraged is the idea of our "superiority". It's a delusion we already suffer from far too often as we tend to assume we are the masters of Earth. 

I would like some of my questions answered in regards to the Reapers. You know why exactly do they harvest us? What's the point of the cycles? What was Human Reaper for? Other questions such as: Where and when did you come from? What is Dark Energy? Those sorts of questions are best left unanswered so the Reapers remain slightly enigmatic in nature. Also I fear Bioware has a bad tendency to over explain their stories and that in doing so diminishes the appeal. Upon seeing Bioware's attempt at Tali's face I'm starting to think it's better they leave some things alone. Mostly because they fail to give the proper fore-thought to their creations. I mean last thing I want is Harbinger to give me a fully detailed narration of the Reaper's History. But there does need to be some basic explanation as to their purpose.

[Sidney]

AdamJenson wrote...

Favourite store on the CitadeI wrote...

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

agree

Why?  And if you say, "it is space magic" I will hit the eject button on you because dark energy is real, unlike green beams that can convert ALL life everywhere into some magical mulch of organic and synthetic.  What you need to pull off that particular trick is a medical doctor and some imbedded chips and synthetic limbs.  No magic green beams.

Dark energy, unlike eezo and all is actually REAL and thus cannot be as stupid as ANY alternative.

Real or not the plot aspect of the use of it is dumber than a box of hammers.  The idea that the reapers are in a race vs time to stop dark energy and their only solution is to puree life in a desultory race every 50,000 years to do something to stop dark energy is just staggeringly weak.

Plus, you thought people hated the "unhappy" ending the unicorms and rainbows retake crowd would have lost their $%^# over a slurpee the universe to stop dark matter or save them and everyone dies set of choices at the end.

[AlanC9]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
what im saying is ME4s plot line should have been shepard and crew UNITED with the reapers to stop the spread of dark matter.

Assuming you're serious.... exactly what would Shepard be able to contribute towards solving the dark energy problem? Or anyone on the crew except for scientists? It's not like you can shoot dark energy and kill it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 juin 2012 - 04:53 .

[AlanC9]

Sidney wrote...
Real or not the plot aspect of the use of it is dumber than a box of hammers.  The idea that the reapers are in a race vs time to stop dark energy and their only solution is to puree life in a desultory race every 50,000 years to do something to stop dark energy is just staggeringly weak.

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Plus, you thought people hated the "unhappy" ending the unicorms and rainbows retake crowd would have lost their $%^# over a slurpee the universe to stop dark matter or save them and everyone dies set of choices at the end.

Nah... they'd all pick the "save everyone" choice and then just assume that humans and their firencs will somehow find a way to save the universe. And Bio wouldn't have had the guts to contradict them. Even if Bio had done the dark energy plot, no way they'd actually have had the Reapers turn out to be right.

[cindercatz]

Seems like some people didn't read page two of this thread...
So, starting from this post:

http://social.biowar...0377/2#12393314

-Why dark energy is better (and yes, the idea they actually described is still very flawed)

[Fedelm]

Bluko wrote...

I would like some of my questions answered in regards to the Reapers. You know why exactly do they harvest us? What's the point of the cycles? What was Human Reaper for? Other questions such as: Where and when did you come from? What is Dark Energy? Those sorts of questions are best left unanswered so the Reapers remain slightly enigmatic in nature. Also I fear Bioware has a bad tendency to over explain their stories and that in doing so diminishes the appeal. Upon seeing Bioware's attempt at Tali's face I'm starting to think it's better they leave some things alone. Mostly because they fail to give the proper fore-thought to their creations. I mean last thing I want is Harbinger to give me a fully detailed narration of the Reaper's History. But there does need to be some basic explanation as to their purpose.

At least basic explanation. I personally want to know more. Ok, may be not in the game, but in a book for example. I don't really think that comics would be suitable here (that would be very funny although, especially in that sort of graphics like the comics about Tali ). The truth is out there ©.

[Grubas]

Every Reaper, each a nation.... Harvesting and preserving the whole inteligence of an entire cycle for what reason? To find a solution for a threat that is so big, that it makes it necessary.

Dark energy explains it.

Me3 not.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Absolutely this. I still think alot of people (Smudboy included) take Sovereign's speech on Virmire far too seriously. His speech is more intended to make us feel puny than take him seriously.

[AlanC9]

cindercatz wrote...

Seems like some people didn't read page two of this thread...
So, starting from this post:

http://social.biowar...0377/2#12393314

-Why dark energy is better (and yes, the idea they actually described is still very flawed)

Sure, I read it. I just didn't feel like being cruel that day.

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Absolutely this. I still think alot of people (Smudboy included) take Sovereign's speech on Virmire far too seriously. His speech is more intended to make us feel puny than take him seriously.

Me too. I'm amazed by just how many people really bought into that pile of self-serving obscurantist B.S.

[BeefoTheBold]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

Amen. 

Don't even need to read further. That sounds completely stupid. Why not just call it "The Force" and say that the job is to stop it somehow and that you're building a robotic super Jedi.

[AlanC9]

Grubas wrote...

Every Reaper, each a nation.... Harvesting and preserving the whole inteligence of an entire cycle for what reason? To find a solution for a threat that is so big, that it makes it necessary.

But it doesn't explain instituting the cycles in the first place. If you need more organic intelligences for some reason -- and why wouldn't you be better off building more A. I.s? -- you farm them. You don't exterminate everyone and then wait 50,000 years to see what happens. It's like a farmer harvesting his crop and then going away for a decade to see if any edible weeds take over his empty field.

And if it's a diversity of intelligent species the Reapers want, then they should harvest some species and plant others. After harvesting the protheans, you then give simple technology to the turians, humans, and so forth. Giving humans agriculture would have shortened the cycle by 40,000 years in our case. Even shorter if they had taken us up further. And if humans are really the best species of our cycle, then they should have exterminated the other intelligences in the galaxy and let humanity expand unchecked for a while longer. It's not like fully modern humans weren't available for study 50,000 years ago.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Absolutely this. I still think alot of people (Smudboy included) take Sovereign's speech on Virmire far too seriously. His speech is more intended to make us feel puny than take him seriously.

Me too. I'm amazed by just how many people really bought into that pile of self-serving obscurantist B.S.

For myself, I think they should have stuck with Vigil's analysis:

"In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them"

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Absolutely this. I still think alot of people (Smudboy included) take Sovereign's speech on Virmire far too seriously. His speech is more intended to make us feel puny than take him seriously.

Me too. I'm amazed by just how many people really bought into that pile of self-serving obscurantist B.S.

For myself, I think they should have stuck with Vigil's analysis:

"In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them"

Still, I could see the temptation of giving in to that kind of demand. Because had we gotten our way, I can easily see a whole crowd of people complaining that we never learned about what the Reapers wanted. The real problem is that any explanation of the Reapers' motives will either appear illogical or instantly contradict the claim of them being "beyond our understanding".

[BeefoTheBold]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep, but ME1 dug the series such a deep hole that there aren't really any good explanations for Reaper behavior. 

Absolutely this. I still think alot of people (Smudboy included) take Sovereign's speech on Virmire far too seriously. His speech is more intended to make us feel puny than take him seriously.

Me too. I'm amazed by just how many people really bought into that pile of self-serving obscurantist B.S.

For myself, I think they should have stuck with Vigil's analysis:

"In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them"

Still, I could see the temptation of giving in to that kind of demand. Because had we gotten our way, I can easily see a whole crowd of people complaining that we never learned about what the Reapers wanted. The real problem is that any explanation of the Reapers' motives will either appear illogical or instantly contradict the claim of them being "beyond our understanding".

True enough and a great point. Once Sovereign said his speech on Virmire, it locked in the Reapers. If you believe him, and supposedly he's one of the head honchos in the Reaper hierarchy, then you either have to keep the Reaper motives mysterious or retconn Sovereign into being a liar there.

Either way, some folks WILL complain.

Personally, I'd have preferred keeping the Reapers unfathomable. Let people guess on why they were doing what they were doing right up until the moment that they were stopped and turned back.

Sure, that's imperfect. But Sovereign's speech was so chilling, so malignant, so awesome that I prefer to keep it that way.

[Il Divo]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

True enough and a great point. Once Sovereign said his speech on Virmire, it locked in the Reapers. If you believe him, and supposedly he's one of the head honchos in the Reaper hierarchy, then you either have to keep the Reaper motives mysterious or retconn Sovereign into being a liar there.

Either way, some folks WILL complain.

Personally, I'd have preferred keeping the Reapers unfathomable. Let people guess on why they were doing what they were doing right up until the moment that they were stopped and turned back.

Sure, that's imperfect. But Sovereign's speech was so chilling, so malignant, so awesome that I prefer to keep it that way.

"I am the vanguard of your destruction".

I freaking love that line.

[BeefoTheBold]

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."

I loved the entire speech.

"In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply are."

[BeefoTheBold]

"The cycle cannot be broken. The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom.

...

You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it."

[Il Divo]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it."

Ah, damn. Was about to post that one. That one's probably the single best line in the game.  

[Getorex]

Bluko wrote...

Dark Energy could be an interesting plot development... but not if it makes the Reapers the "good guys". Because then we seemingly become the backward primitives. In many senses it invalidates Shepard as a hero if his/her quest never served any meaningful purpose. (Which is sort of the issue with the current endings.)

Personally I prefer the Reapers remain malovent. For starters it's better for the series integrity that they remain the "big bad". One of the worst things you can do with a fictional setting is continually create bigger evils simply to draw out the storyline in attempts to outstage the last act. This is fine if it is planned and established in a way that flows naturally. The other thing is it cheapens the value of Shepard's exodus knowing the fought against the lesser evil. It would also be best IMO if the Reapers remain the central atangonists of Mass Effect. The Reapers have simply been built up as such omni-potent beings it would be laughable to create something bigger then them.


I'm fine with Dark Energy being a part of the Reaper's grander schemes to control the universe. (Might also resonate well with T.I.M.'s beliefs of control.) Hence it is something even the Reapers still don't fully understand. I believe this would somewhat validate the Human Reaper as supposedly Humans are very adept at harnessing Dark Energy via Biotics. However going with the idea only the Human race can save the Galaxy is going a bit too far. Makes us way too special and the last thing that should be ever be encouraged is the idea of our "superiority". It's a delusion we already suffer from far too often as we tend to assume we are the masters of Earth. 

I would like some of my questions answered in regards to the Reapers. You know why exactly do they harvest us? What's the point of the cycles? What was Human Reaper for? Other questions such as: Where and when did you come from? What is Dark Energy? Those sorts of questions are best left unanswered so the Reapers remain slightly enigmatic in nature. Also I fear Bioware has a bad tendency to over explain their stories and that in doing so diminishes the appeal. Upon seeing Bioware's attempt at Tali's face I'm starting to think it's better they leave some things alone. Mostly because they fail to give the proper fore-thought to their creations. I mean last thing I want is Harbinger to give me a fully detailed narration of the Reaper's History. But there does need to be some basic explanation as to their purpose.

So?  We ARE backwards primatives.  In reality AND in the ME universe.  The Reapers are vastly more advanced than any organic, that is their thing.  Their nature.  In any case, it would NOT make humans the proper backwards primative, it would simply mean that the reaper's motives were a mystery but now they aren't.  

[Getorex]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

Amen. 

Don't even need to read further. That sounds completely stupid. Why not just call it "The Force" and say that the job is to stop it somehow and that you're building a robotic super Jedi.

Well, because the "force" ala Star Wars doesn't exist, not even in theory, but dark energy DOES exist in theory and as THE single best explanation (though it is not understood) for very real cosmological observations.  See the difference?  The former is a jokey made up bit of magic while the latter is, like, real and stuff.  

[Purge the heathens]

No, no, wait. I've got it all figured out.

So we know that eezo is created when a planet is affected by the energy of a star going supernova -and- we know that the dark energy buildup was aging stars prematurely -and- we know that mass relays have "dark switches" that control the transmission of energy from neighboring systems. Thus, in each cycle, the Reapers blow up a few suns to create new eezo stores for their next victims.

It's very simple, see?

[Purge the heathens]

Getorex wrote...

So? We ARE backwards primatives. In reality AND in the ME universe. The Reapers are vastly more advanced than any organic, that is their thing. Their nature.

Actually, I don't think they are all that advanced. They're either hibernating or harvesting the same old technologies for the umptillionth time. They're stagnating, they've stopped developing and don't tell me it's because there's nothing left to develop. For eldritch abominations, they're somewhat lacking in the omnipotence department. If they're so advanced, they could at least have the decency to be completely invulnerable to conventional weaponry.

[AlanC9]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."

In one sense, that kind of works. If they're super-intelligent we wouldn't be able to follow their thinking.

The problem is that for creatures who are very far beyond organics' comprehension, the Reapers seem to be awfully concerned with how organics develop. This sort of thing worked for Frederik Pohl's Assassins, who blew up intelligent races that might get in their way but ignored them otherwise. Or for the Vile Offspring in Charles Stross'  Accelerando, who weren't especially concerned with organic life, but had a regrettable habit of dismantling the planets of the solar system for computronium. But the Reapers seem to depend on organics existing, and existing in a particular way.

Maybe it's something like Xanth, where the super-beings are playing a complex game with arbitrary rules.