180 réponses à ce sujet

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

DevilBeast wrote...

It´s strange how humans, in Mass Effect, are portrayed as being more genetic diverse than all the other species considering that on Earth we are one of the least diverse.

Exactly! I really think that they should have abandoned that silly notion. 

[Fedelm]

superg30 wrote...

Dialogues in the game? this coming from the guy who, going off your profile, joined these forums 2 months ago and has apparently only played ME3, so pleeeeeeeease, elaborate on your argument.

Well, there is no need to be impolite. So I just tell you: don't make hasty conclusions. World around you is not so simple as it looks.

[superg30]

Fedelm wrote...

superg30 wrote...

Dialogues in the game? this coming from the guy who, going off your profile, joined these forums 2 months ago and has apparently only played ME3, so pleeeeeeeease, elaborate on your argument.

Well, there is no need to be impolite. So I just tell you: don't make hasty conclusions. World around you is not so simple as it looks.

Sorry if I came accross rude but it's just that the way you tried to disprove *my* theory(which is my theory and is what I believe, you don't have to if you don't want to, nobody's forcing you to) didn't make sense, you just said the dialogue and astronomy disproves it, but you never said which points they disprove or which dialogues in the game disprove them, to me it just sounded like you were taking a shot in the dark and hoping you get some people to agree with you, but again without proof of your argument, it's just that, an agrumentive statement of your own opinion.


So let's you and me come to a truce and agree to disagree and end this semi-pissing match before it really starts between the two of us?

[macrocarl]

The Seticsynth vs. Organics plot was more prevalent in the series than the Dark Energy thing. I think that plot point should come later in the series. It needs to be built on more.

"The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."
The problem with the quote above is that who the heck would choose to turn humanity into Reaper toothpaste since one of the major themes throughout ME game is hope? I know people are miffed with Starkid being the Wizard of Oz but I'd take that over the Dark Energy plot any day.

[Getorex]

macrocarl wrote...

The Seticsynth vs. Organics plot was more prevalent in the series than the Dark Energy thing. I think that plot point should come later in the series. It needs to be built on more.

"The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."
The problem with the quote above is that who the heck would choose to turn humanity into Reaper toothpaste since one of the major themes throughout ME game is hope? I know people are miffed with Starkid being the Wizard of Oz but I'd take that over the Dark Energy plot any day.

I would have been a nice workable path if they had extended the game beyond a trilogy and had the reapers resolution a step in the path to the final resolution too.  More time to develop the the dark energy thread and do a synthetic vs organic a minor subplot (which it is). 

There is no "synthetics always turn on their creators" law.  It is nonsense. 

[Fedelm]

superg30 wrote...

So let's you and me come to a truce and
agree to disagree and end this semi-pissing match before it really
starts between the two of us?

Let's end. But I really can answer some your questions.

superg30 wrote...

If your suggesting that the Reapers are like the Geth, all linked together in consenses, that would make no sense at all.

If all Reapers where 'connected' to eachother, each one knew what the other knew then why did the Reapers not immediatley storm into the galaxy from dark space when Soveriegn was destroyed and thus the galaxy knowing (but not all believing) that the Reapers exist? Plus the Reapers are fully evolved SENTIENT BEINGS, meaning that each one thinks and acts on it's own, Harbinger is the 'Head/Boss' Reaper, which wouldn't be needed if they all thought together and if the Reapers really were trying to figure out this dark energy bullsh*t for millions of years, why hasn't this "Dark Energy" destroyed the universe by now?

The Reapers are linked together. It becomes absolutely clear from Drew Karpyshyn's books (Revelation, Ascention, Retribution), especially during the process of Paul Grayson's indoctrination. Sovereign was left in our galaxy to monitor the situation - to warn other Reapers if it would be necessary to come earlier then after 50 000 years. But when he was found and then subjugated Saren, his main aim was to investigate the situation: achievements of different races, their world view, relationships with each other and etc. That is why other Reapers didn't dart to the Milky Way. Harbringer is just the oldest and the most powerful Reaper but it doesn't disapprove that they are connected. They are separate persons, connected into some kind of network. And then they, I suppose, started to find some allies. It's easier to conquer when there are some traitors inside.
About dark energy: according to this variant of the plot the harvesting of advanced civilizations every 50 000 years (nearly) assists the Reapers in the fight with the dark energy threat by delaying the collapse. It was the only way that they could figure out. That is why DE hasn't destroyed the universe by now. This is a very very long distance process.

And at the end of ME3 when the child talks to you, he says that without them (the Reapers) synthetics would destroy the galaxy, which means that somewhere in time a civilization was nearly wiped out by synthetics and they built the Reapers to harvest the advanced civilizations of the galaxy before they make super adv. synthetics (more powerful than the Geth) to make sure that there is a galaxy left for the still evolving future life forms, because if synthetics wiped out all organic life, why would they let evolving organics live?

I don't want to comment on this. It's on the scriptwriter's conscience.

And the Reapers leave the Citadel. Mass Relays, etc... intact to make sure that all future civilizations will evolve somewhat along the same lines, as eventually some where in time some future civilizations will evolve faster than others and need to be harvested sooner, leaving a gap where the slower evolving ones would be left with technology in say....what we had in the 1700's, which would pose no threat to the galaxy and would not to be harvested, and by the time they the Reapers arrived again at the end of the cycle to harvest the adv. civilizations, the synthetics they the 1700's civilization created might already have destroyed the galaxy. And with no way to monitor when a civilization needs to be harvested, the 50k year cycle would provide more than enough time for all 'evolved' species to be at the level where they pose a threat to the galaxy but leave slower species in their 1st or 2nd stage of evolution, just like how Javik says he remebers the Salarians as lizard people who ate flies, or the Hanar as minnos in the sea. Those species are allowed to evolve and are not harvested, as it would be pointless to harvest them.

That's again the shortcomings of the plot. But, as I said, there are some means for monitoring: Sovereign, same Collectors I suppose. Why the Reapers didn't come when the Geth were invented? Well, I think because when the Geth's story was thinked up there was no idea about creations that always rebell against their creators, huh All complaints to the scriptwriters.

Also even if one civilization learned not to make synthetics, and the Reapers didn't exist, there's only so many planets in the galaxy, not all habitable, eventually the galaxy would run out of space and resources, just like what happened with the Drell, therefore eventually wiping out life in the galaxy for ever, and whose to say that the Reapers only harvest the Milky Way galaxy? There could be other Reapers that harvest other galaxies to ensure the same thing.

Oh, what a creepy idea!  Let's think that during 50000 years cycle our Reapers harvesting another galaxies. I don't want too many Reapers

And the end of ME3 and the Crucible plans were a test most likely created by the same civilization that created the Reapers, it tests if a Civilization first has the will to survive by thinking, building the crucible, not to just try to muscle and beat the Reapers into submission and wether or not they are willing to A.) Give into the power synthetics can have (control), B.) Give into synthetics and become one yourself, which would again put the galaxy in danger (synthesis), or C.) Regect synthetics and live as organics should, organic (destroy), they also try to trick the choice maker by telling them things like this will be better, even though it won't, or this is bad, when it's not. And depending on which choice a civilization makes, determines if A.) choose A, wanting the power synthetics hold tells the Reapers that this cycle does not deserve to continue and to continue wiping it out, and projects images into the choice maker's head making them believe they made the right choice as this action will kill the choice maker, B.) choose B, accepting synthetics shows the Reapers that the cycle will try to make themselves synthetic showing again that the cycle does not deserve to continue and projecting the same images to the choice maker as choice A as this choice again kills the choice maker, and finally C.) choose C, reject the power of synthetics and live without them, therefore showing the Reapers that that civilization is worthy of living for another cycle, but will still be destroyed some time in the future by other 'Reapers', as most likely not all Reapers go to harvest at the end of a cycle.

I know this is going to sound stupid but going off this theory of mine, the Reapers probably killed the dinosaurs as the Reapers saw humans in the steps of being evolved and saw the Dinosaurs as a threat to the humanspecies, so they wiped out the Dinosaurs, which is what they're programmed to do, kill one species to protect another.

*Not 100% on this but this theory of mine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than the Indoctrination theory(as much sense as that makes) or this Dark Energy theory which makes next to no sense what so ever, comment is you like it or not.*

I understand your wish to find logic in the endings that we have now. After I played the game and was shocked, I tried to do it too. But it's а waste of time and nerves. Ends don't meet here. If this thoughts comforts and joys you - well, keep up the good work.
I do not believe in IT too. I just hope that it would be used to bring logic and explanation to the game. But I should admit that it is unlikely to happen.

P.S. If you didn't read ME books, I think it would be interesting for you. "Revelation", "Ascention", "Retribution", "Deception".

Modifié par Fedelm, 06 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[Getorex]

Fedelm wrote...

superg30 wrote...

So let's you and me come to a truce and
agree to disagree and end this semi-pissing match before it really
starts between the two of us?

Let's end. But I really can answer some your questions.

superg30 wrote...

If your suggesting that the Reapers are like the Geth, all linked together in consenses, that would make no sense at all.

If all Reapers where 'connected' to eachother, each one knew what the other knew then why did the Reapers not immediatley storm into the galaxy from dark space when Soveriegn was destroyed and thus the galaxy knowing (but not all believing) that the Reapers exist? Plus the Reapers are fully evolved SENTIENT BEINGS, meaning that each one thinks and acts on it's own, Harbinger is the 'Head/Boss' Reaper, which wouldn't be needed if they all thought together and if the Reapers really were trying to figure out this dark energy bullsh*t for millions of years, why hasn't this "Dark Energy" destroyed the universe by now?

The Reapers are linked together. It becomes absolutely clear from Drew Karpyshyn's books (Revelation, Ascention, Retribution), especially during the process of Paul Grayson's indoctrination. Sovereign was left in our galaxy to monitor the situation - to warn other Reapers if it would be necessary to come earlier then after 50 000 years. But when he was found and then subjugated Saren, his main aim was to investigate the situation: achievements of different races, their world view, relationships with each other and etc. That is why other Reapers didn't dart to the Milky Way. Harbringer is just the oldest and the most powerful Reaper but it doesn't disapprove that they are connected. They are separate persons, connected into some kind of network. A then they, I suppose, started to find some allies. It's easier to conquer when there are some traitors inside.
About dark energy: according to this variant of the plot the harvesting of advanced civilizations every 50 000 years (nearly) assists the Reapers in the fight with the dark energy threat by delaying the collapse. It was the only way that they could figure out. That is why DE hasn't destroyed the universe by now. This is a very very long distance process.

And at the end of ME3 when the child talks to you, he says that without them (the Reapers) synthetics would destroy the galaxy, which means that somewhere in time a civilization was nearly wiped out by synthetics and they built the Reapers to harvest the advanced civilizations of the galaxy before they make super adv. synthetics (more powerful than the Geth) to make sure that there is a galaxy left for the still evolving future life forms, because if synthetics wiped out all organic life, why would they let evolving organics live?

I don't want to comment on this. It's on the scriptwriter's conscience.

And the Reapers leave the Citadel. Mass Relays, etc... intact to make sure that all future civilizations will evolve somewhat along the same lines, as eventually some where in time some future civilizations will evolve faster than others and need to be harvested sooner, leaving a gap where the slower evolving ones would be left with technology in say....what we had in the 1700's, which would pose no threat to the galaxy and would not to be harvested, and by the time they the Reapers arrived again at the end of the cycle to harvest the adv. civilizations, the synthetics they the 1700's civilization created might already have destroyed the galaxy. And with no way to monitor when a civilization needs to be harvested, the 50k year cycle would provide more than enough time for all 'evolved' species to be at the level where they pose a threat to the galaxy but leave slower species in their 1st or 2nd stage of evolution, just like how Javik says he remebers the Salarians as lizard people who ate flies, or the Hanar as minnos in the sea. Those species are allowed to evolve and are not harvested, as it would be pointless to harvest them.

That's again the shortcomings of the plot. But, as I said, there are some means for monitoring: Sovereign, same Collectors I suppose. Why the Reapers didn't come when the Geth were invented? Well, I think because when the Geth's story was thinked up there was no idea about creations that always rebell against their creators, huh All complaints to the scriptwriters.

Also even if one civilization learned not to make synthetics, and the Reapers didn't exist, there's only so many planets in the galaxy, not all habitable, eventually the galaxy would run out of space and resources, just like what happened with the Drell, therefore eventually wiping out life in the galaxy for ever, and whose to say that the Reapers only harvest the Milky Way galaxy? There could be other Reapers that harvest other galaxies to ensure the same thing.

Oh, what a creepy idea!  Let's think that during 50000 years cycle our Reapers harvesting another galaxies. I don't want too many Reapers

And the end of ME3 and the Crucible plans were a test most likely created by the same civilization that created the Reapers, it tests if a Civilization first has the will to survive by thinking, building the crucible, not to just try to muscle and beat the Reapers into submission and wether or not they are willing to A.) Give into the power synthetics can have (control), B.) Give into synthetics and become one yourself, which would again put the galaxy in danger (synthesis), or C.) Regect synthetics and live as organics should, organic (destroy), they also try to trick the choice maker by telling them things like this will be better, even though it won't, or this is bad, when it's not. And depending on which choice a civilization makes, determines if A.) choose A, wanting the power synthetics hold tells the Reapers that this cycle does not deserve to continue and to continue wiping it out, and projects images into the choice maker's head making them believe they made the right choice as this action will kill the choice maker, B.) choose B, accepting synthetics shows the Reapers that the cycle will try to make themselves synthetic showing again that the cycle does not deserve to continue and projecting the same images to the choice maker as choice A as this choice again kills the choice maker, and finally C.) choose C, reject the power of synthetics and live without them, therefore showing the Reapers that that civilization is worthy of living for another cycle, but will still be destroyed some time in the future by other 'Reapers', as most likely not all Reapers go to harvest at the end of a cycle.

I know this is going to sound stupid but going off this theory of mine, the Reapers probably killed the dinosaurs as the Reapers saw humans in the steps of being evolved and saw the Dinosaurs as a threat to the humanspecies, so they wiped out the Dinosaurs, which is what they're programmed to do, kill one species to protect another.

*Not 100% on this but this theory of mine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than the Indoctrination theory(as much sense as that makes) or this Dark Energy theory which makes next to no sense what so ever, comment is you like it or not.*

I understand your wish to find logic in the endings
that we have now. After I played the game and was shocked, I tried to do
it too. But it's а waste of time and nerves. Ends don't meet here. If this thoughts comforts and joys you - well, keep up the good work.
I do not believe in IT too. I just hope that it would be used to bring logic and explanation to the game. But I sould admit that it is unlikely to happen.

P.S. If you didn't read ME books, I think it would be interesting for you. "Revelation", "Ascention", "Retribution", "Deception".

Bit of a problem with the "dinosaurs and humans" thing.  No humans at all in ANY form during dinosaur age.  Not even a HINT of humans or any other apes.  Not a single one.  Nothing but rat-like shrews and other assorted small fry quadripeds.  No point to killing off dinosaurs to get humans going since there was no way to know at that point that anything even remotely LIKE humans would ever come into being on earth.

[superg30]

Getorex wrote...

Fedelm wrote...

superg30 wrote...

So let's you and me come to a truce and
agree to disagree and end this semi-pissing match before it really
starts between the two of us?

Let's end. But I really can answer some your questions.

superg30 wrote...

If your suggesting that the Reapers are like the Geth, all linked together in consenses, that would make no sense at all.

If all Reapers where 'connected' to eachother, each one knew what the other knew then why did the Reapers not immediatley storm into the galaxy from dark space when Soveriegn was destroyed and thus the galaxy knowing (but not all believing) that the Reapers exist? Plus the Reapers are fully evolved SENTIENT BEINGS, meaning that each one thinks and acts on it's own, Harbinger is the 'Head/Boss' Reaper, which wouldn't be needed if they all thought together and if the Reapers really were trying to figure out this dark energy bullsh*t for millions of years, why hasn't this "Dark Energy" destroyed the universe by now?

The Reapers are linked together. It becomes absolutely clear from Drew Karpyshyn's books (Revelation, Ascention, Retribution), especially during the process of Paul Grayson's indoctrination. Sovereign was left in our galaxy to monitor the situation - to warn other Reapers if it would be necessary to come earlier then after 50 000 years. But when he was found and then subjugated Saren, his main aim was to investigate the situation: achievements of different races, their world view, relationships with each other and etc. That is why other Reapers didn't dart to the Milky Way. Harbringer is just the oldest and the most powerful Reaper but it doesn't disapprove that they are connected. They are separate persons, connected into some kind of network. A then they, I suppose, started to find some allies. It's easier to conquer when there are some traitors inside.
About dark energy: according to this variant of the plot the harvesting of advanced civilizations every 50 000 years (nearly) assists the Reapers in the fight with the dark energy threat by delaying the collapse. It was the only way that they could figure out. That is why DE hasn't destroyed the universe by now. This is a very very long distance process.

And at the end of ME3 when the child talks to you, he says that without them (the Reapers) synthetics would destroy the galaxy, which means that somewhere in time a civilization was nearly wiped out by synthetics and they built the Reapers to harvest the advanced civilizations of the galaxy before they make super adv. synthetics (more powerful than the Geth) to make sure that there is a galaxy left for the still evolving future life forms, because if synthetics wiped out all organic life, why would they let evolving organics live?

I don't want to comment on this. It's on the scriptwriter's conscience.

And the Reapers leave the Citadel. Mass Relays, etc... intact to make sure that all future civilizations will evolve somewhat along the same lines, as eventually some where in time some future civilizations will evolve faster than others and need to be harvested sooner, leaving a gap where the slower evolving ones would be left with technology in say....what we had in the 1700's, which would pose no threat to the galaxy and would not to be harvested, and by the time they the Reapers arrived again at the end of the cycle to harvest the adv. civilizations, the synthetics they the 1700's civilization created might already have destroyed the galaxy. And with no way to monitor when a civilization needs to be harvested, the 50k year cycle would provide more than enough time for all 'evolved' species to be at the level where they pose a threat to the galaxy but leave slower species in their 1st or 2nd stage of evolution, just like how Javik says he remebers the Salarians as lizard people who ate flies, or the Hanar as minnos in the sea. Those species are allowed to evolve and are not harvested, as it would be pointless to harvest them.

That's again the shortcomings of the plot. But, as I said, there are some means for monitoring: Sovereign, same Collectors I suppose. Why the Reapers didn't come when the Geth were invented? Well, I think because when the Geth's story was thinked up there was no idea about creations that always rebell against their creators, huh All complaints to the scriptwriters.

Also even if one civilization learned not to make synthetics, and the Reapers didn't exist, there's only so many planets in the galaxy, not all habitable, eventually the galaxy would run out of space and resources, just like what happened with the Drell, therefore eventually wiping out life in the galaxy for ever, and whose to say that the Reapers only harvest the Milky Way galaxy? There could be other Reapers that harvest other galaxies to ensure the same thing.

Oh, what a creepy idea!  Let's think that during 50000 years cycle our Reapers harvesting another galaxies. I don't want too many Reapers

And the end of ME3 and the Crucible plans were a test most likely created by the same civilization that created the Reapers, it tests if a Civilization first has the will to survive by thinking, building the crucible, not to just try to muscle and beat the Reapers into submission and wether or not they are willing to A.) Give into the power synthetics can have (control), B.) Give into synthetics and become one yourself, which would again put the galaxy in danger (synthesis), or C.) Regect synthetics and live as organics should, organic (destroy), they also try to trick the choice maker by telling them things like this will be better, even though it won't, or this is bad, when it's not. And depending on which choice a civilization makes, determines if A.) choose A, wanting the power synthetics hold tells the Reapers that this cycle does not deserve to continue and to continue wiping it out, and projects images into the choice maker's head making them believe they made the right choice as this action will kill the choice maker, B.) choose B, accepting synthetics shows the Reapers that the cycle will try to make themselves synthetic showing again that the cycle does not deserve to continue and projecting the same images to the choice maker as choice A as this choice again kills the choice maker, and finally C.) choose C, reject the power of synthetics and live without them, therefore showing the Reapers that that civilization is worthy of living for another cycle, but will still be destroyed some time in the future by other 'Reapers', as most likely not all Reapers go to harvest at the end of a cycle.

I know this is going to sound stupid but going off this theory of mine, the Reapers probably killed the dinosaurs as the Reapers saw humans in the steps of being evolved and saw the Dinosaurs as a threat to the humanspecies, so they wiped out the Dinosaurs, which is what they're programmed to do, kill one species to protect another.

*Not 100% on this but this theory of mine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than the Indoctrination theory(as much sense as that makes) or this Dark Energy theory which makes next to no sense what so ever, comment is you like it or not.*

I understand your wish to find logic in the endings
that we have now. After I played the game and was shocked, I tried to do
it too. But it's а waste of time and nerves. Ends don't meet here. If this thoughts comforts and joys you - well, keep up the good work.
I do not believe in IT too. I just hope that it would be used to bring logic and explanation to the game. But I sould admit that it is unlikely to happen.

P.S. If you didn't read ME books, I think it would be interesting for you. "Revelation", "Ascention", "Retribution", "Deception".

Bit of a problem with the "dinosaurs and humans" thing.  No humans at all in ANY form during dinosaur age.  Not even a HINT of humans or any other apes.  Not a single one.  Nothing but rat-like shrews and other assorted small fry quadripeds.  No point to killing off dinosaurs to get humans going since there was no way to know at that point that anything even remotely LIKE humans would ever come into being on earth.

I'm speaking terms of the game lore, the Reapers are super adv. A.I. which know how the species of the galaxy are going to evolve, technology wise, based on their tech. they leave behind. Since they have a rough idea on this, whose to say they can't predict what species will eventually evolve, I mean they've harvested thousands of times and would eventually notice what species would evolve from what type of planet, or since the Dinosaurs had existed for millions of years, eventually something else would evolve and the dinos would cause a threat to the new species.

Or the Dinosaurs died when a Mass Accelerator weapon missed a Reaper and smacked into earth(like the meteor), since in ME2 at the Citadel a sergeant is telling his men that if you miss it could hit someone or something thousands of years later.

Again as I said in the original post, this may sound stupid because in real life, it is stupid, in real life the Reapers don't exist and niether did the Protheans, I mean I believe in "Aliens" in real life on other planets, i mean the universe is too big for us to be the only intellegent species, but I DO NOT believe that earth has ever been visted by "Aliens", some day maybe thousands of years into the future they might come here or we might go there, but as of now, no.

(P.S i put "Aliens" in " " because the term Alien means foriegn.)

[Tiggerous]

I agree with Getorex completely.

Also with saying the Dark Energy plot wasn't prevalent and only hinted at. I actually would have liked purpose of the Reapers to be handled that way. Their purpose was supposed to be unfathomable and it only being hinted at within the game would help keep it that way. Rather than the silly purpose we were given. The synthetics vs organics purpose was a cop out.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

AlanC9 wrote...

Getorex wrote...
It is not possible to understand what dark energy actually is and this isn't required for it to exist AND be the valid basis for a "problem" in a story.  As it apparently DOES exist and no one truly understands its nature (yet at least) it is not silly.  Silly is creating AIs to destroy organics to prevent them from making their own synthetics to destroy them first.  Silly is the idea, as if it is some physical law, that "all synthetics turn on their creators".  Childish is what that is.  
Dark energy, on the other hand, is adult as it is adult RL scientists and theorists who detect its presence and offer up possible explanations for it.  

A better ending is any ending that is self-consistent, can stand on its own logic (adult logic, not the logic of toddlers - and no, I do not refer to the star kid toddler but to RL toddlers).  

OK, so, how would you suddenly introduce the Dark Energy as an "enemy" in ME3 and actually wrap up the story? Or is this the part where people do a handwave and say "Well, I'm not a writer so I don't know what they'd do, but a really good writer could take this idea and make it into something super awesome that we'd all love"?

Since it was introduced in ME2 as a destructive force it is not that difficult to have expanded upon that in 3. I just wouldn't have limited it's influence to the Galaxy. As I stated before, astrophysicists theorize that an abundance of Dark energy can lead the "Big Rip". The Big Rip is probably one of the most catastrophic End of Time scenarios That would tear everything in existence apart at the subatomtic level. Knowing this, Dark energy is really a problem that the Universe must contend with.

Building a story involving the Reapers trying to stop the Big Rip essentially is easy but at the same time can become covoluded and can end up going over people's heads. But that solves the issue of contradicting Sovereign's speech on Virmire. If one can take the covoluded concept of the Big Rip and try to ground it into some sensible logic then problem solved. Since I started recently thinking about the DE concept much of my thoughts are very basic. The Reapers could very well be infinite (or older than our Universe) as Sovereign stated if the DE problem has been around and the Reapers have witnessed other Universes being torn apart. However, introducing the possiblity of a multiverse is even more problematic I'm still working on how I think it could work.   


 

[davidlt]

Want to know the reality (at least what we know) about dark energy and the Universe (without it there is no Universe- big bang / it comes from space itself- space isn't empty space) watch the NOVA series Fabric of the Cosmos.

[cindercatz]

Yep, it's a necessary force of nature. (or at least a description of a necessary natural process, however you want to put it)

AlanC9 wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

Seems like some people didn't read page two of this thread...
So, starting from this post:

http://social.biowar...0377/2#12393314

-Why dark energy is better (and yes, the idea they actually described is still very flawed)

Sure, I read it. I just didn't feel like being cruel that day.

You didn't feel like being cruel that day? Either you're lying or you're dense, because every post you've made in this thread was answered in that discussion and you ignored it. Getorex has done a good job of further restating and elaborating the same explanation of "why" the last few pages. Don't pull that flippant junk, thanks. Doesn't do you any favors.

Modifié par cindercatz, 09 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Hatchetman77]

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

I agree

[AlanC9]

cindercatz wrote...

Yep, it's a necessary force of nature. (or at least a description of a necessary natural process, however you want to put it)

AlanC9 wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

Seems like some people didn't read page two of this thread...
So, starting from this post:

http://social.biowar...0377/2#12393314

-Why dark energy is better (and yes, the idea they actually described is still very flawed)

Sure, I read it. I just didn't feel like being cruel that day.

You didn't feel like being cruel that day? Either you're lying or you're dense, because every post you've made in this thread was answered in that discussion and you ignored it. Getorex has done a good job of further restating and elaborating the same explanation of "why" the last few pages. Don't pull that flippant junk, thanks. Doesn't do you any favors.

I thought your argument was crap, and poorly written crap at that. Getorex at least gets his points across clearly. But yeah, it wasn't so much not wanting to be cruel, as not thinking you were worth taking seriously.

But since you insist, I guess I can give it a shot:

Let's start here:

What might cause you to look at the universe and your species on such a long term, almost unfathomable (or only abstractly fathomable) scale and fear? Maybe you've gotten to such a point that you've become practically immortal. Maybe those "beings of light" actually existed, after a certain point. What if they are the first Reaper, and they're offering immortality of a sense to other advanced species? If that kind of salvation is the goal, the Reapers throughout the series make sense, and they serve a purpose other than sweeper. Maybe the reason that they really always maintained the relays, other than potentially finding more eezo, (and I always thought eezo burning in that star was responsible for Haestrom..) is that they really don't care about staving off universal entropy, being seemingly impossible, so who cares if you speed it up a bit? Maybe your goal is to ride your arc through it, with whoever else you 'save' along the way, and the relays help you to do that.. That idea of the Reapers as a museum of past civilizations, in their bio-synthetic inner world, would not be far off. 

The problem here is that no one -- literally not one single ME3 player, I'll wager -- found the "immortality of a sense" that the Reapers offer in ME3 to be acceptable. This doesn't even change what the Reapers are offering from what we got in ME3. Your "salvations" is being turned into paste and pumped into a Reaper.

And how would Reapers "ride their arcs" through the end of the universe? Being turned into a 2km long space battleship won't help you with that. I guess that's where the space magic comes in?

So whoever the first Reaper society were, they looked at the far flung, eventual end of the universe as one would regard a large comet headed for your planet in a future you can't change, i.e. inevitable doom. So, if you see that as personally threatening to all that you've become, and you're so advanced as to see yourself personally effected, and to see yourself as your galaxy's shephard, so to speak, what do you do? Do you accept your eventual fate head on, continue to live as you have, or, given the option, do you build an arc and attempt to beat it? And that would be the question to Shepard. All the Reapers are species that someone somewhere decided to accept the Reaper's offer.

The italicized bit is simply false. The Reapers don't make an offer. They incorporate species whether or not they want to be Reaperized. By violence -- extreme, catastrophic violence.

And yes, it's very much like indoctrination, because you're being brought about to the Reaper point of view. I think there should have been an indoctrination choice anyway, and then you get to see it actively play out. 

No one would have been brought around to that view. Except maybe you.

Or should I have been looking at Dexi's posts instead? Those are a bit better. But in the end that would still fail as an ending. Not only would no player ever accept the Reapers' offer of transcendence, but having Shepard even consider the offer would be seen as insulting . Anyway, his concept has even less to do with dark energy than yours does.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 juin 2012 - 05:02 .

[cindercatz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure, I read it. I just didn't feel like being cruel that day.

cindercatz wrote...

You didn't feel like being cruel that day? Either you're lying or you're dense, because every post you've made in this thread was answered in that discussion and you ignored it. Getorex has done a good job of further restating and elaborating the same explanation of "why" the last few pages. Don't pull that flippant junk, thanks. Doesn't do you any favors.

AlanC9 wrote...

I thought your argument was crap, and poorly written crap at that. Getorex at least gets his points across clearly. But yeah, it wasn't so much not wanting to be cruel, as not thinking you were worth taking seriously.
But since you insist, I guess I can give it a shot:

Getorex has done a great job in this thread of trying to educate people about the concepts, for one.

Your posts clearly indicate that you don't even really understand the discussion, but I was being polite. I didn't even mention your name in the post. What I was pointing out was that you were rehashing the same debate that we'd already clearly argued, on the same page, and acted as though we were arguing that dark energy was some monster side effect that was going to destroy the universe right around the corner if Shepard didn't stop it. We all pretty well agreed that was crap and moved on. I was trying to move the thread back into interesting, new ground, as we had a nice discussion going. I was never gloating about my posts; I was referring to the six or seven posts before yours. I chose that one because it had a few of our full posts prior with all the main points so far included in quotes. It was "starting here" for convenience, not "I have all the answers".

You had a more interesting point later on about dark energy not being the best way to go because of the lack of a definite antagonist (or, oddly, you arguing against de as an antagonist, which is odd as it's meant to describe a fundamental yet poorly understood (or directly observed, hence "dark", like dark matter is matter we don't know how to directly measure and don't particularly well know how to describe) process of nature, and wouldn't count as any sort of antagonist at all), and if you'd just made your damn point, we could of argued it from there and gotten back on track, but no, you had to be a dick. I guess it's pointless to hope for more. Seems that way every time I've seen you in a thread, so my bad. Learned my lesson.

My posts weren't meant to be entries in an essay contest, and I don't feel the need to go back and fix my typos or sloppy grammar, or go google the en vogue terminology for the same damn things. What they were meant to do was get some basic ideas across and spark some thought, and they were successful enough, I think. Most of yours, on the other hand, haven't even been given enough thought to qualify for "poorly written".

"Taken seriously," please. Basic respect, please. It's my fault though. When someone thinks they're smarter than they are and takes license to attempt to talk down at me, it shouldn't bother me, but it does. I need to work on that. I shouldn't have responded to your insult. I even let it effect another post I made in a different discussion, so I should probably go apologize for that too.

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's start here:

*

The problem here is that no one -- literally not one single ME3 player, I'll wager -- found the "immortality of a sense" that the Reapers offer in ME3 to be acceptable. This doesn't even change what the Reapers are offering from what we got in ME3. Your "salvations" is being turned into paste and pumped into a Reaper.

You miss the point entirely. "Immortality of a sense" is what the species that created the reapers would have already had, and why they'd see the "big rip", which you apparently didn't realize is another name for all that entropy I was talking about, as such a threat. If other species are near enough to their level of development to also begin to see themselves as a sort of immortal race, they might look at the situation in a similar way. None of the ME species are, outside of the "beings of light", but they might be close enough to consider the question, since their technology and civilization is largely influenced by that of the Reapers' creators.

The Reapers in ME3 are basically just giant robots as it turns out, but if they'd gone the original way and stuck with Sovereign's "each of us a nation" concept, then things wouldn't be that simple and the choice would be different. I never liked what the little blurb this thread started on proposed, and I said so. But doing DE right would've changed that, and DE vs. what we got is what I was arguing. DE gives the Reapers a believable motivation and a consistent logic that the player could weigh, if it were done right.

AlanC9 wrote...

And how would Reapers "ride their arcs" through the end of the universe? Being turned into a 2km long space battleship won't help you with that. I guess that's where the space magic comes in?

 All the Reapers are species that someone somewhere decided to accept the Reaper's offer.

The italicized bit is simply false. The Reapers don't make an offer. They incorporate species whether or not they want to be Reaperized. By violence -- extreme, catastrophic violence.

"Space magic." Since when have I ever said anything about space magic or supported anyything like it? Reaper-tech that we know of deals with dark energy, their weapons, their ftl travel (eezo itself with the dark energy waste product, essentially), their jump gates (the relays). It's pseudoscience, but Mass Effect is all pseudoscience. We're not there yet, and until and unless we eventually are, anything applying these concepts will be pseudoscience. Any sci-fi that's not right around the corner, in development, hard science based, is going to take some leaps and liberties. My point was that it's concievable as a goal within the ME universe. I never said the Reaper's tech would even be successful, just that it would explain their original species' motivation.

Indoctrination is accepting their offer. Indoctrination is just another word for brainwashing. The Reapers do it with some kind of fields and telepathic interference, sure. Enough members of a species could be successfully brainwashed or they could simply see themselves very much like the Reapers' creators saw themselves. The result is the same, and in the game, the choice does and would take the form of an offer, so that's the word I used.

And sorry, I didn't go back and correct "arc" for "ark". Again, not writing essays for peer review here. In a series of posts that long and that quickly banged out (obviously), I didn't think anybody would be anal enough to care. I don't think you really did either. I think you just wanted to throw in the extra little insult.

AlanC9 wrote...

And yes, it's very much like indoctrination, because you're being brought about to the Reaper point of view. I think there should have been an indoctrination choice anyway, and then you get to see it actively play out. 

No one would have been brought around to that view. Except maybe you.

No, not me. Stop trying to paint me as some idiotic charicature. I don't agree that any of us surviving the big rip in any context is worth slaughtering untold trillions and more, but I'm not an 'ends justifies the means' kinda guy.

Also, choosing the Reapers would obviously not follow through into another game, just like getting Shep killed in ME2 doesn't follow into ME3. What it would do is give us a more interesting, thought provoking set of questions, give the Reapers both a believable origin and a consistent, less nutty motivation, and give us a starkly different ending cut scene to watch. Along with character epilogue scenes and choices taken into account during the endgame, that would've been great. I could go for even more, like I've suggested elsewhere on the boards, but that would've done very well.

AlanC9 wrote...

Or should I have been looking at Dexi's posts instead? Those are a bit better. But in the end that would still fail as an ending. Not only would no player ever accept the Reapers' offer of transcendence, but having Shepard even consider the offer would be seen as insulting . Anyway, his concept has even less to do with dark energy than yours does.

Dexi's posts are fine indeed. From the point we got "dark energy is real" into the discussion, the thread was stellar, and then you decided to derail it and insult me (what is this? personal? what'd I ever do to you?) the first time I referred back to that. You apparently don't have the slightest clue about dark energy, despite links to its wiki page in this thread, for starters. Stop talking at me like you have some leg up on physics when you don't.

And the player considers the question. If you as a player never consider anything the Reapers say, then Shep never considers it either. That's how it should be. The current ending doesn't give us that option. There's no rejecting the choice.

Anyway, I'm done. I don't want to say anything that'll get me banned from playing my BioWare games, so consider this my last post for the thread.

[Heimdall]

Fedelm wrote...

 
Shortcomings of the plot. But, as I said, there are some means for monitoring: Sovereign, same Collectors I suppose. Why the Reapers didn't come when the Geth were invented? Well, I think because when the Geth's story was thinked up there was no idea about creations that always rebell against their creators, huh All complaints to the scriptwriters.

Actually, if the Rachni are to be believed, Sovereign was looking for ways to activate the Citadel over a thousand years before the creation of the Geth.  The Reapers had already determined to end the current cycle, but that Prothean sabotage foiled their timing.

[Heimdall]

My only problem with dark energy is that it is an impersonal faceless threat without any will of its own. It's like making global warming the primary threat of a plot. It just isn't terribly interesting and could lead to an overly convoluted plot.

I also wish people would stop misrepresenting the current Reaper plan. They do not "wipe out organic life so they don't create synthetics that might wipe out organic life", they cull species with the capability to create advanced synthetics and store them in the form of a Reaper, leaving more primitive species the opportunity to thrive and advance. They mass relays and the Citadel just make them more manageable to harvest. I'm not wild about it or the current endings, but it only hurts your own arguments if you insist on oversimplification.

[Il Divo]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I also wish people would stop misrepresenting the current Reaper plan. They do not "wipe out organic life so they don't create synthetics that might wipe out organic life", they cull species with the capability to create advanced synthetics and store them in the form of a Reaper, leaving more primitive species the opportunity to thrive and advance. They mass relays and the Citadel just make them more manageable to harvest. I'm not wild about it or the current endings, but it only hurts your own arguments if you insist on oversimplification.

The phrase actuall should read "the Reapers wipe out advanced organic so they don't create synthetics that might wipe out other organics", if we want to be accurate. .

[GreenFlag]

Hatchetman77 wrote...

friendlybatarian wrote...

This sounds even stupider than what we got.

I agree

30 years ago people thinking, the Star Wars will be stupid movie and it wasn't.
It's about interpretation, good story from crappy thing can make a miracle.

Modifié par GreenFlag, 11 juin 2012 - 01:08 .

[Outamyhead]

Armondram99 wrote...

 All over BSN I keep seeing people comment about a scrapped Dark Energy plot. I remember the Haelstrom mission in ME2 revolving around something like that but that is all. Can somebody please explain this for me?

Something Drew Karpyshyn was working on for the story of ME3, and dark matter is mentioned a few times in ME2.  Anyway, Drew retired while working on both ME3, and Old Republic (which to be honest won't get you the best results having someone working two massive top priority projects, and being the main guy for storyline creation of ME, I would quit too under that kind of pressure), so once Drew left Casey came up with another storyline which is what we got as the finished product of ME3, and why the fourth book sucks with character and storyline continuity.

[Heimdall]

Frankly, they should have decided on the Reaper's motivations from the beginning

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I also wish people would stop misrepresenting the current Reaper plan. They do not "wipe out organic life so they don't create synthetics that might wipe out organic life", they cull species with the capability to create advanced synthetics and store them in the form of a Reaper, leaving more primitive species the opportunity to thrive and advance. They mass relays and the Citadel just make them more manageable to harvest. I'm not wild about it or the current endings, but it only hurts your own arguments if you insist on oversimplification.

The phrase actuall should read "the Reapers wipe out advanced organic so they don't create synthetics that might wipe out other organics", if we want to be accurate. .

The more alternative ME plots I read, the more I appreciate the existing explanation. Given the non-rational nature of the Reaper cycle, there weren't a lot of good options lying around.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 juin 2012 - 03:02 .

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...


The more alternative ME plots I read, the more I appreciate the existing explanation. Givent the non-rational nature of the Reaper cycle, there weren't a lot of good options lying around.

That's why I think they should have just left the motive unexplored. The problem is that the reasoning which the Catalyst gives us is so bad that it makes basic logic cry. And seems in stark contrast to Bioware's usual style of story-telling (exposition, exposition, exposition). There's nothing wrong with omitting details, but here it's uncharacteristic of Bioware (since NwN) and left many players banging their heads.

Ultimately, when engaged in the fight against genocide, motive isn't really important; survival is. If motivation allows us a better chance of surviving, then it's helpful. But in this case, the Catalyst doesn't do this effectively. At the end of the day, the synthetic-organic line fills the same terrible role as dark energy, by forcing a choice on the player regarding something outside their control and making the Reapers seem benevolent. But at least dark energy did have some amount of foreshadowing in ME2 (Gianna Parasini, Haelstrom, codex entries, etc).  

[AlanC9]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Actually, if the Rachni are to be believed, Sovereign was looking for ways to activate the Citadel over a thousand years before the creation of the Geth.  The Reapers had already determined to end the current cycle, but that Prothean sabotage foiled their timing.

A thousand years... and yet he didn't have the patience to indoctrinate a bunch of C-Sec folks and take over the Citadel from the inside.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Actually, if the Rachni are to be believed, Sovereign was looking for ways to activate the Citadel over a thousand years before the creation of the Geth.  The Reapers had already determined to end the current cycle, but that Prothean sabotage foiled their timing.

A thousand years... and yet he didn't have the patience to indoctrinate a bunch of C-Sec folks and take over the Citadel from the inside.

ME1 definitely has its own faults to deal with.