604 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Killahead wrote...

deadpixel92 wrote...

What is wrong with the people in this thread? attacking and insulting the OP just because you don't agree in his opinion? yes i wasn't necessary to make another nerf post but the attitude of some people in this thread is pathetic. Show some respect.

This.

I love how Stardusk has been completely ignoring all the straw man arguments and the trolls in this thread and only responded to those who actually have contributed to the discussion.

He and his nerf clique routinely ignore any argument that they can't answer, preferring to pick and choose amongst points to further illustrate their position. This works great in a competitive debate, but is the antithesis of having a constructive dialogue. Whereas you specifically show up in these threads repeatedly with no contribution other than to either troll people or be a Stardusk Yes-Man.

For the record I do consider you a troll, and I could bring up various comments proving as much but the most blatant one is the fact that you refer to me as Starduck. Now tell me if that is trollish behaviour or not?

[humes spork]

Pitznik wrote...

But that is what makes it broken. You can prove that BW ain't good if you put it on character relying on cooldown and try to shoot everything from hip. You have to put the weapon in the right context to check what is wrong with it. I won't say anything about GI, or another Infiltrator, because I do not play these classes.

"In the right context" or cherry-picking? Because, the overwhelming majority of the complaints about the reegar seem to me to be the latter, focused around the two most extreme examples and used as a basis for crying nerf.

Take this video, for example. A shotgun that does heavy sustained damage is good on a krogan vanguard. Well, thanks for that revelation. I guess your next trick is to tell us the sky is blue, grass is green and water is wet. I don't mean to be facetious there, but the point is really silly. I'd challenge Stardusk or anyone else to make a gold vid displaying the same "skilllessness" on other vanguard classes, or a soldier, sentinel, or certain engineers who can make solid use of shotguns -- who thanks to that also constitute "the right context" -- but may lack distance closers as vanguards and infiltrators readily have, or the passive shotgun bonuses awarded to krogan.

Clean house as a drellguard on gold as you did the krogan and I'll be tempted to admit the reegar may be overpowered. If indeed your thesis -- that the weapon carries the class and requires no skill -- is true, then it shouldn't be a problem at all.

I've been using the reegar myself on my krogan soldier, and while it's powerful closing distance is a royal pain in the ass and I've been using it as a vehicle to build rage by blasting them down to a sliver of health and finishing them off with a headbutt. In that case, it's really anything but a "skillless" weapon as posited given krogan have their inherent problems with taking cover, and no dodging.

We've been down this path before -- the revenant on a turian soldier back in the demo/beta, the falcon on a human soldier host, the eagle on infiltrators, for example -- and seen what happens with twitch-nerfs based on cherry-picked examples firsthand.

Modifié par humes spork, 02 juin 2012 - 03:07 .

[astheoceansblue]

Air Quotes wrote...

Reegar is NOT OP. I got outscored by a Claymore GI on Dagger by 10000. And she didn't use any rockets, while I used 3. I had Adrenaline Mod 3 on QI and still wasted a lot of time running up to enemies. Reegar X didn't even melt a Pyro in 1 mag with Incendiary mod 2. Which resulted in me dying 3 times.

Reegar is only good on small close quarter maps and even then you have to be on your toes to not die.

You being outscored by the most powerful class in the game has nothing to do with the Reegar's effectiveness. Gi makes everything look UP when played well.

Modifié par astheoceansblue, 02 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[Killahead]

death_for_sale wrote...

Killahead wrote...

deadpixel92 wrote...

What is wrong with the people in this thread? attacking and insulting the OP just because you don't agree in his opinion? yes i wasn't necessary to make another nerf post but the attitude of some people in this thread is pathetic. Show some respect.

This.

I love how Stardusk has been completely ignoring all the straw man arguments and the trolls in this thread and only responded to those who actually have contributed to the discussion.

He and his nerf clique routinely ignore any argument that they can't answer, preferring to pick and choose amongst points to further illustrate their position. This works great in a competitive debate, but is the antithesis of having a constructive dialogue. Whereas you specifically show up in these threads repeatedly with no contribution other than to either troll people or be a Stardusk Yes-Man.

I believe this is the first time I've assumed that role, and I've discussed balance with many members of this forum without ever resorting to personal insults. I think it was called for after having seen all the bashing and stupidity in this thread.

[Stardusk]

I'd rather say it bespeaks the quality and character of the posters who simply have to resort to name calling, something I have never done. This isn't about me being a good player or not. It's about this weapon. Calling me a '******t' or some other drivel is completely irrelevant to the topic. 

neteng101 wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

People are free to disagree with my opinions here and even on my channel though it is clear by the number of mindless ad hominems directed at me over there (four letter word insults and the like), that the caliber of comments coming from those folks is pretty low.

Indeed.  But remember, you're already shown your biases in past videos and disdain of infiltrators...  you talk about it, give your reasons clearly.  People get that you're good at this game, but a little humility never hurts anyone.

Just basing on your videos, we'd need to nerf at least this:

• Asari Justicar damage reductions
• Graal Spike Thrower
• Vorcha health regeneration

You can choose to deny it as much as you like, but a large majority of players will get killed using the Reegar given its very limited range and need to be revived.  Trying to dictate how others play and what skills are needed to play the game, which you are indeed doing, is basically putting down others.

That's why they're directing virulent comments in your direction.  Start asking yourself what you're doing that causing all that...  or you can ignore it all, and just show yourself to be like almost everyone here is these days, self-absorbed, in need of ego stroking/validation by others.

[BigFresh37]

Within the first few seconds of the video,. Stardusk reveals he doesn't know what the phrase "so-called ___" means. Hilarious.

[neteng101]

Stardusk wrote...

I'd rather say it bespeaks the quality and character of the posters who simply have to resort to name calling, something I have never done. This isn't about me being a good player or not. It's about this weapon. Calling me a '******t' or some other drivel is completely irrelevant to the topic.
[*]

[*]So you chose to ignore everything else I said to you and just pick this one thing to respond to.  Deflect and ignore anything that doesn't support your viewpoint, and just try to change the topic?
[*]As far as the name calling goes, you know, when play with fire, expect to get burned in return.  Calling the fire bad, because you're pouring fuel into the flame, fails to recognize the root cause.  Understanding why they're calling you names, is of relevance.  But self-absorbed individuals are often incapable of stepping outside their own soapbox, to see what they might be doing wrong.

[Stardusk]

What is the argument? That a female QE will be less effective than a Kroguard with it? No argument there. Doesn't change the gun.

neteng101 wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

I'd rather say it bespeaks the quality and character of the posters who simply have to resort to name calling, something I have never done. This isn't about me being a good player or not. It's about this weapon. Calling me a '******t' or some other drivel is completely irrelevant to the topic.
[*]

[*]So you chose to ignore everything else I said to you and just pick this one thing to respond to.  Deflect and ignore anything that doesn't support your viewpoint, and just try to change the topic?
[*]As far as the name calling goes, you know, when play with fire, expect to get burned in return.  Calling the fire bad, because you're pouring fuel into the flame, fails to recognize the root cause.  Understanding why they're calling you names, is of relevance.  But self-absorbed individuals are often incapable of stepping outside their own soapbox, to see what they might be doing wrong.

[DayusMakhina]

Pitznik wrote...

DayusMakhina wrote...

Hell, in that video Stardusk mentions how it's point and shoot and everyone can be successfull with it... yet he's using a Krogan Vanguard, a character with insane health that can take a lot of damage and has an ability that allows him to instantly get into the minimal range of the gun. That is certainly not "any class", that's one of the best characters to be to use the weapon.

But that is what makes it broken. You can prove that BW ain't good if you put it on character relying on cooldown and try to shoot everything from hip. You have to put the weapon in the right context to check what is wrong with it. I won't say anything about GI, or another Infiltrator, because I do not play these classes.

The thing is though, lots of weapons can be deemed broken when you apply them to certain situations. GPS on a GI is certainly almost broken. A Claymore on an Infiltrator is almost instant win. Obviously the Reegar on a Krogan Vanguard is also broken, but if you balance it solely on that then it becomes usable on the KV and useless on anything else. That isn't balance either. Yes, from the sounds of it it is too strong on the KV for you and should be lessened, but considering that the KV and other close range classes are it's niche then it should be very powerful there.

Pitznik wrote...
What is wrong with Reegar X on my Krogan Vanguard on silver (Berserker Package I, shredder, spare ammo):

1. I can kill about 3 basic troopers in one charge/empty mag/reload cycle, just like with my Graal. But I can keep 200% cd, mag of Reegar is empty lot faster than Graal's, and it requires no skill whatsoever - I have to charge Graal, aim for head, with Reegar I just press fire and move reticle like I would be using eraser in paintbrush. 

2. It trivializes Phantoms - after initial stagger from Biotic Charge, I had to either aim for the head, or just shoot at the body, with much less damage, but keeping Phantom staggered to keep myself safe. Now I just charge and erase Phantom out of existence.

3. Atlas - I can solo silver Atlas with repeated charge/3 charged shots/reload routine using Graal, but it took time. With other mobs around I would rather wait for some backup. With Reegar Atlas doesn't give a pause - first charge/mag removes his shields entirely and 2 armor pieces, 2nd and 3rd B. Charges/mags just finish him. I don't need to charge my weapon, and my BC is on 200% cd - so now I need less cycles, and those cycles use less time than with Graal. Atlas trivialized. I believe with Reegar modded for shredder/hcb I once killed silver Atlas from full shields to zero in 2 charges, which takes like 5 seconds or so, but I can't repeat it consistently, so maybe I was shooting from perfect range (since both too close and too far is less damage), or there was some damage from my team, hard to tell.

4. Turrets - again, I could destroy a Turret from full shields in one BC cycle with Graal, but it was risky, since if I didn't time it between bursts, I was stripped of Barrier completely, so if Turret had buddies, I could die. No longer the case - one mag of Reegar is enough for Turret and whatever hapopens to be near, no problem.

Yeh... all that does sound broken. Although bare in mind this is Silver we're talking about here but it's still quite clear there that it's too strong. 

Pitznik wrote...
The worst thing is, I actually don't have to put more effort than before, I have to put less. With Graal I had to aim for the head, charge weapon, stagger stuff since my BC was off the cd bit later (200% Reegar, 160% Graal). Now I just kill things instead of staggering them. I used Cerberus as an example, but its same thing with other factions. Only enemy I don't feel I improved a lot on is Banshee - Reegar eats her like crazy, but I have to keep more risky range than with Graal - but here at least we have some tradeoff - efficiency versus risk.

So, what do you say? Am I a gold player now, just because I got new weapon?

No, atleast you shouldn't be. If it has made that much difference to you then it probably cannot be argued that it is too overpowered. That does not mean though that it shouldn't still be very powerful on a KV. The weapons main downside is it's lack of range, obviously some classes can mitigate that but that does not mean you should totally ignore the range issue, else it'll be nerfed to the extent that it's usable on something that can ignore range and completely useless on anything else.

Modifié par DayusMakhina, 02 juin 2012 - 03:08 .

[BoomDynamite]

The range and ammo...

[Cosmo G. Spacely]

Everyone wants to nerf the shottys, but buff the sniper rifles :/.

But it does need a little work, it shouldn't melt shields and armor like that.

I still use the GPS people claimed takes no skill to use, while they run around with their black widows.

[DayusMakhina]

Stardusk wrote...

What is the argument? That a female QE will be less effective than a Kroguard with it? No argument there. Doesn't change the gun.

When the premise of the gun is extreme damage at close range then yes it does. Part of the balance of the weapon is that it does absolutely 0 damage at range.

Modifié par DayusMakhina, 02 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[Rifneno]

LOL. This is funny as all hell. Man, the RNG has been trolling me something awful. 11 PSP's and 12 spectre packs and all I've gotten is a quarian engineer (which I promptly named "Bubbleboy" and never used) and a Krysae like half an hour ago and have yet to learn to use. I had no idea how lolacaust this stuff really was. Damn you, RNG.

But back to the video. I have an idea for a drinking game. Watch 5 minutes of that video and take turns drinking everytime the poster says the word "broken." I swear, it's like every other word. "Broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken broken." Mix it up a little. Christ. Use analogies. "Look at that phantom just evaporate. That's what this gun does to challenge." Maybe plays on ME meme's. "Reegar carbine, he said. Guddamn I win button, I said." "Ahh yes, 'tuning.' We have dismissed that claim." Then again, maybe it does change up later on. I stopped watching after he started talking about how it should be nerfed, which was approx. 5 seconds after he said he's not saying it should be nerfed. "I'm not saying it should be nerfed. Some people like broken weapons." After a few dozen more "broken"'s, "the only way I can see keeping the damage is if they make it weigh as much as Irune and have mods stop affecting it." So... you're not advocating a nerf, but if you were, that's how you would do it. Okay, that makes sense. ... Broken? Ahh, yes. Broken to you too.

[humes spork]

DayusMakhina wrote...

When the premise of the gun is extreme damage at close range then yes it does. Part of the balance of the weapon is that it does absolutely 0 damage at range.

Exactly, especially in the context this video in particular is using a class that has between two to three times the amount of health and shields as most other classes by default, the ability to recharge shields on cooldown, already-high weight capacity and weight reduction for shotguns, damage reduction, and an instant range-closer. Not even other vanguards have half that number of goodies.

And he's claiming "it's not the class, it's the gun". No, it's the class -- the class has every tool it needs to get the absolute, most use of the reegar it can. If it were the gun, not the class, you'd be able to steamroll gold on a drellguard (granting the weight capacity and biotic charge, which is as Stardusk cedes in the video puts it over the edge if I recall correctly) just as easily as you could the kroguard. And, I'd love to see that video.

Hell, let's see a human soldier video of steamrolling with the reegar as Stardusk claims can be done. Human soldiers get increased weapon damage through the teeth and DR/instant reload in the form of AR, but no range closer. Hell let's see any soldier do that.

Sentinel? They do okay with shotguns. Let's see a sentinel video (without exploiting the vorcha flamer issue, that is to say). MQE? They're not terribly cooldown dependent, being a grenade class; I bet you could shred the bosses with damage scan and a reegar. AJA? Now that would just get stupid between reave's DR and offensive bubble combos, and she has the capacity to use a reegar X without destroying her CDR.

And, if it's the gun and not the class, those results should be replicable on any of those classes and you should be able to play them just as skilllessly as you did the kroguard. So let's see some actual experimentation before twitching and crying nerf.

Modifié par humes spork, 02 juin 2012 - 03:39 .

[Aifell_Ellion]

i guess i mentioned that before,
     but as stardusk and his friends are saying,
               that they dont want this gun to be nerfed,
               and this thread was created just to demonstrate that the gus is
                                    an 'abo-some-strange-word-that-i-dont-know',
              well to demonstrate that his gun is op,
we can say that the original reason of creating this thread was
          to cry out loud, and be mentioned.
so no arguement or considerable dialogue can take place here.
the whole thread is just for kids to whine.

Modifié par Aifell_Ellion, 02 juin 2012 - 03:39 .

[Pitznik]

death_for_sale wrote...

Maybe you are a Gold player now and wouldn't that be cool? Again, barring a stacked team with stacked consumables, the Reegar is simply not OP on Gold. As far as Silver goes, even a nerfed weapon like the Falcon will faceroll if you use the right class and the right consumables. It is, in fact, a go to weapon for Silver if your class can set off tech or fire bursts. Take the same gun to Gold and it functions much the same, but it is definitely much weaker than it is on SIlver.

If a weapon can make a silver player gold, that is exactly what is not cool about it. Difficulty switch is for players, not for weapons.

As for it not being OP on Gold, you might want to see the video in the OP. Consumables aren't an argument, since they are supposed to be used, on Gold especially, so we can't just put them away to prove anything. And how does the team affect Stardusk's performance with it?

Biggest issue isn't Reegar's effectiveness (which is too high imo), but the fact it is so facerolling easy to use, compared to other weapons letting achieve comparable results. Now if anyone will tell that Claymore or Graal is easier, or as easy to use like Reegar I will have to accuse them of lying, or that we have drastically different physical abilities, to the point I can't really comprehend that difference.

@ humes spork

If a weapon is OP on one class, which is the class to use it, or as in that case on two classes, it is enough to call it OP in my opinion. Cherry picking would be putting it some very specific context, like combination of enemy/map/class/build/team - this weapon is OP on all Infiltrators and all Vanguards on all maps, that's like what, one third of available characters? Other classes need specific maps to make it shine, I suppose then you can call it balanced on a soldier. As to drell vanguards there is a video of fast run somewhere with 4 drellguards using it. But they are in hands of extremely good players, who also all have a bajillion grenades between them, so I suppose it will be too easy to dismiss it.

Modifié par Pitznik, 02 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[Sypher90]

OP's video is very slightly misleading as the player is using Armor Piercing Ammo and fails to specify which level AND is using a character that makes it hard to see any active ammo powers. And depending on the level, the AP mod is adding a healthy boost to overall damage.

Yes, my tinfoil hat is placed squarely on my head. It's a friggin' co-op game. It is not the end all be-all of weapons everyone thinks it is. ******-poor range and ******-poor ammo capacity along with ******-poor reload (unless you can consistently reload-cancel).

I honestly don't see the big deal.

[Klokos]

death_for_sale wrote...

Additionally, there is one point that still has not been contradicted or refuted by the nerf clique.

What happens when you take 4 elite players with stacked consumables using Claymore/GPS/Wraith/Hurricane/Insert other powerful weapon here and have them all focus fire one the same Boss?

I await that video.

 Nothing like that, they all wipe on wave one.