604 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Oh look, the THIRD thread Stardusk makes about the Carbine since Tuesday... 

Since I was actually thinking about balancing the Carbine yesterday (because I do think it needs a few changes, though I've never felt it was "ridiculously broken"), I'll bite and chime in with what I would change to it.

1. MAKE IT MUCH HEAVIER: As it is, you can actually get very close to a 200% cooldown with it if you take all the weight reduction options. This thing should at the very least be heavier than the GPS and Graal. Should it be as heavy as the Claymore? Eh, I wouldn't go that far. The fact that it's only useful at point blank range is a big penalty in my eyes, so I wouldn't make it that heavy, but definitely close.

2. SHORTEN THE CLIP SIZE (and maybe the overall ammo capacity too): Insta-gibbing trash mobs is no big deal, many of the weapons in the game can already do that. Insta-gibbing bosses is an issue though. The Carbine can get away with it because simply emptying the clip drops bosses shields' entirely and a second clip can chew through their armor. Hell, if using amps and ammo powers, it's possible to practically insta gib it with just one clip. So I say, make the clip MUCH smaller. It will still be able to insta-gib trash mobs, but against bosses you'd be forced to do a few reloads to get the job done. 

Considering the nature of how it only works at point blank range, being stuck in a reload animation right in front of a brute, banshee, or atlas, is bad enough to offset the raw power of the weapon. You'd still be lethal with it against bosses, but you would now need to be careful about how you approach them because you can't just insta-gib them.

Coupled with an increased weight (which would make relying on powers to offset running out of ammo in front of dangerous enemies harder), I think those two changes would be enough to balance the weapon fairly, though there is one more thing I would consider doing to it, though this one isn't 100% necessary with the above changes...

3. GIVE IT A PENALTY AGAINST ARMOR: I believe I read somewhere that this weapon has a damage bonus against shields and barriers, which makes perfect sense given its electrical nature. However, given what a huge bonus that is, it should be countered with a further damage reduction against armor, or as some have proposed, make the shredder mod and AP ammo useless on it (though making AP ammo useless on it without it being noted in the description would be unfair, as many players would end up wasting consumables on it). An armor damage reduction and no piercing abilities would be enough for me.

Before anyone says that the weapon already does less damage against armor, yeah, it makes less damage than against shields, but it still burns through armor rather quickly even without any mods or ammo powers.

I will finish my post by saying that I don't believe the weapon is as "HORRENDOUSLY BROKEN" as others make it out to be. Even after playing with it extensively, I still find myself preferring other weapons over it without a second thought. It's not the only weapon that kills ridiculously fast (Hurricane with amps and ammo powers anyone?). I like being useful at range, not to mention that unless I'm an infiltrator or Vanguard, point blank range fighting isn't exactly safe.

I also have noted a funny thing, anytime I use this weapon, I have scored lower than average, which is a reflection of how being useless at range is a problem. See that trooper about to execute your partner? Can't do anything about it with this weapon if you're not close.

The weapon does need some changes, but even as it is right now, I don't believe it breaks the game at all.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 juin 2012 - 05:03 .

[Kuato Livezz]

I don't think Stardusk is a troll or a condescending individual. Probably a good guy to hang out with. The issue is with devotion levels with the game. Some play for enjoyment and don't give a second thought to mechanics and mathematical forumulas. Others like to break the game down and point out issues.

Absolutely nothing wrong with either end of the spectrum. He just wants to bring an awareness to other fans of the game. That is all.

[OGWS]

Yes, nerf the new guns, so everyone can go back to their claymores and black widows, as it should be

[Minic78]

Kuato Livezz wrote...

I don't think Stardusk is a troll or a condescending individual. Probably a good guy to hang out with. The issue is with devotion levels with the game. Some play for enjoyment and don't give a second thought to mechanics and mathematical forumulas. Others like to break the game down and point out issues.

Absolutely nothing wrong with either end of the spectrum. He just wants to bring an awareness to other fans of the game. That is all.

Mmmhm. I always admired his making detailed build threads the day or so after updates. Although I began to not bother looking at them since we have different playstyles, I learned a lot from when I did. Wasn't a fan of the videos either, as he can come off as just the slightest bit condescending, which to me is more irritating than being obvious about it.

Still, people are going to jump on the bandwagon of flaming him no matter how good his argument is. I guess they enjoy a good punching bag.

Modifié par Minic78, 02 juin 2012 - 04:55 .

[The Milky Waver]

I believe it is quite balanced. First of all, it has a ridiculously low ammo supply that burns up (pun intended) very fast, allowing you to only go through about 4/5 clips until you are completely out of ammo. Secondly, you have to be at a very close range for this weapon to be effective, which can be very dangerous, especially on gold. 

[Aiiro]

makes a twenty two minute video about a gun that's powerful but useless in anything but super close range

k

[Highlord Heian]

Stardusk wrote...

Did you watch the video? I say I don't call for the nerf.

Stardusk wrote...

I already stated in the video.

Make it AT LEAST as heavy as the Javelin and make shredder and AP ammo unusable on  it.

Whoops contradicted yourself pretty swiftly there.

"I didn't say nerf it, I just said to make it less effective."

You're embarrassing yourself. Or, maybe your intellectual standard is so low that this is a step up. Either way, it's pathetic.

[Controllerfreak]

I'm not sure whats going on in the video, but obviously you've already got armor piercing ammo on the gun. Mine is not that fast, it takes 1 full clip to kill anything if I keep it directly on them the whole time, and phantoms take forever with their barrier and health. Are you also using giant class buffs to the weapon? and more gear/equipment?

[your-friendly-noggin]

I have to say I'm still on the fence as I haven't unlocked it yet(weird as I just got both the saber and harrier, guess I'm lucky with ultras) but this video is a bit concerning, the speed which it took out nemesis and centurions is incredible.
I use the claymore a fair amount, I consider myself pretty good with it but I can't even get close to how casually that reegar brushed them off.

[tonnactus]

The weapon is balanced by its laughable range. And also, dont like it,dont use it. Where is the problem?

Modifié par tonnactus, 02 juin 2012 - 05:36 .

[Fioxnoa]

Hes speced his char with gear/mods and then cries its op when HE BUILT IT TO BE OP for just that round reegar/krys both are mediocre by themselves


EDIT: I''ll show real proof later

Modifié par Fioxnoa, 02 juin 2012 - 05:28 .

[nicethugbert]

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The claim being made against the Reeger is that it is overkill therefore it requires less, or no, skill to use.  So, if this is true then the same is true about the Claymore or Graal versus the Disciple because Disciple is not overkill against any enemy but Claymore and Graal are.  Not sure about Wraith as I only have it at level one and find no use for it at that level.

  

Actually, I think the claim is that Reegar does not require precise aim to melt X enemies in Y seconds, or something like that. I could not care less.

  

Does point blank anything require precise aim to melt X enemies in Y second?  Should it?  I doubt the developers gave this much thougt to weapon design at any design phase in the ME series.  Isn't the point of a shotgun to be free of the need for precis aim when melting X enemies in Y seconds at point blank range?

In either case, my comparison stands.  Disciple requires precis aim to melt X enemies in Y seconds.  I think it requires more so than the Claymore, etc. precisely because it's overkill potential is non-existant.  It's DPS is much less.  If you waste a shot you will get wasted.

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote... 
Additionally, on gold, even the lowest level mobs are lethal, especially for an Asari Adept with no fitness, which is one of my favorite characters.  But, I wouldn't use reeger on her as I must have 200% weight reduction on her.  I would use it on something like a Krogan or Batarian Sentinel which I spec for grenades, fitness, dr, and weapon damage instead of weight reduction and typically use with heavy weapons.

   

I'd probably not use such a short range weapon on a caster either, unless the game was played on a small map, like Glacier.

  


I probably would not use such a weapon on a caster because it reduces their cooldown.  That might not interfere with the caster's effectiveness and it might actually improve it on the whole.  But, to me it defeats the purpose of the caster.  What makes the caster interesting is their powers not the weapons.  Any character can use the same weapons.  The weapon now competes with your powers rather than works with it.  Luckily, ME3 is the type of game where you have this choice rather than waiting for the developer to patch it in.  I don't see why the choice has to be made for everyone rather than letting everyone make the choice for themselves.

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote... 
Black Widow kills more effectively because you can't spam proximity mine from tac cloak as fast if you are using it instead of a viper?  No, Blackwidow kills more effectively than viper because BW decided there would be a pecking order among weapons that have the same purpose and use.

    

That was my point. Not sure where your mine spam came from. Disciple can't be better than GPS at killing because it weighs like one third of GPS (just example).

  


Yes, but why does it weigh one third of what a GPS weighs, for example?  What purpose does it serve?  I think the purpose is to take weapons and powers in combination.  If you do more damage with a weapon then you do less damage with a power and visa versa.  Although, BW clearly was not consistent with this idea, hence my mention of proximity mines and tactical cloak.

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...  
But, you can't rely soley on powers unless you hide behind a desk on fire base white and some how remain untouched by the enemy. Also, as a non-infiltrator, you don't have tac cloak to hide behind.
 

    

Again, not sure where this came from since I never claimed otherwise.

  


What I'm getting at is the idea I mentioned above about the relationship between weapons and powers.

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...   
When you have to move, as you often do against Phantoms, Brutes, etc.  Then you have to interleave weapon and power use.  I'd like to see a comparison between something like Disciple+Throw/Conc Shot/Stasis/Reeve/Warp/etc. and Claymore/Graal/Wraith + whatever.  I'm betting it's not so easy to do this with a Disciple.

 

Depends on what kind of power you have, obviously. e.g. Stasis = no problem with phantom(s). Again, Disciple is not as good as say GPS at killing. For obvious reasons. 

  


You can spam more throws, conc shot, ARush, Marksman, Carnage, etc. with a Disciple than you can a GPS, etc.  But, you don't need to spam so many throws, etc., with a GPS etc.  You might even score higher spamming less throw and using more GPS.  But does that mean that it takes more skill to use a GPS, Graal, Claymore, etc. than a Disciple, with or without power spam?

[cipherknight]

my 2 cents if your not a vanguard or infiltrator there's a good chance that weapons range and clip size will get you killed.

[rtwebre]

I find it odd as an avid PvPer that you guys want to nerf weapons, it's not like the NPCs are real people being unfairly treated by imbalanced mechanics. I tend to think of nerfing to be a PvP related thing I guess.

Modifié par rtwebre, 02 juin 2012 - 05:32 .

[Rifneno]

Controllerfreak wrote...

I'm not sure whats going on in the video, but obviously you've already got armor piercing ammo on the gun. Mine is not that fast, it takes 1 full clip to kill anything if I keep it directly on them the whole time, and phantoms take forever with their barrier and health. Are you also using giant class buffs to the weapon? and more gear/equipment?

Exactly.  I don't care either way about the gun since the RNG is trolling me hardcore, but it's clear as day that the video stacked everything to make the gun as powerful as possible.  Vanguard is the only class for whom that range wouldn't be an issue and krogan is the only species who wouldn't get positively shredded when he charges into a crowd.  So out of 36 possible characters, only one of them could pull off those stunts.  Moreover, the fact he put consumables on it and didn't show the equipment screen shows how disingenuous it is.  No credibility as far as I'm concerned.

[tonnactus]

cipherknight wrote...

my 2 cents if your not a vanguard or infiltrator there's a good chance that weapons range and clip size will get you killed.

Thats not a guess,its a pure fact. This weapon is only usable by vanguards and vorcha.

[Lucius Aelius]

Reegar isn't boken, you have to not suck to use it well and anyone who's good will do better with another gun than they would with the Reegar. It's the Krysae that's broken where you can miss yet somehow still hit, any sniper you don't even have to aim being described as anything but broken is ridiculous, fix the Krysae so you actually have to hit things to hurt them and everything will be fine.

As it is i just threw my Reegar on my Male Quarian Engineer and finally feel like the character is playable (I don't use grenades on any character, including the MQ, so unsurprisingly I suppose he couldn't really hold his own too well). I have the Carnifex w/ scope and AP and the Reegar w/ extra clips and shredder, and frankly i just focus on the Carnifex until I'm directly threatened by something near me ,instead of dying like i did pre-Reegar, now i can properly defend myself.

Anyone who goes out of there way to make an overpowered bulid has plenty of ammunition ,as it is i prefer to put powerful weapons on characters who need it and weaker weopons on those who are heavy hitters (like an Infiltator, I only ever use a Disciple/Carnifex combo anymore (this on my GI) and i couldn't be happier with the results).

I've never used a GPS on any character just because of how overpowered it is, and until I see those players using a Reeger instead, it can't be called OP. If anything it's the perfect addition to a character who was in need of extra offensive capabilities to go along with the support role it plays primarily, now I can be supportive and still fight stuff effectively (and all without those #%@* grenades.... I hate them so much, if only to avoid fighting over the ammo boxes i am nothing if not glad to go utterly without ,and glad to do so while still being able to contribute.

Don't nerf the Reegar, people who want OP will always throw the hardest hitting weapon on the hardest hitting character and of course the combo will be devastating, just for that the rest of us have to he punished and deprived the opportunity to make a well-rounded character on our own terms? That's just stupid.

[rollblows]

Stardusk wrote...

 This weapon is beyond broken. It is an abomination.

www.youtube.com/watch

who the **** cares if we are haveing fun useing it so be it you dont have to use it

[Makko Mace]

I support your video OP!

[Kronner]

nicethugbert wrote...

Does point blank anything require precise aim to melt X enemies in Y second?  Should it?  I doubt the developers gave this much thougt to weapon design at any design phase in the ME series.  Isn't the point of a shotgun to be free of the need for precis aim when melting X enemies in Y seconds at point blank range?

  

No. That's why Reegar is what it is.

nicethugbert wrote... 
In either case, my comparison stands.  Disciple requires precis aim to melt X enemies in Y seconds.  I think it requires more so than the Claymore, etc. precisely because it's overkill potential is non-existant.  It's DPS is much less.  If you waste a shot you will get wasted.

If you miss with a Disciple, you can fire right away again. If you miss with a Claymore, you are stuck with a reloading weapon for at least 2.2s (assuming perfect reload cancel), or around 3.5s if you do not reload cancel. I'd have thought it was obvious which weapon punishes you more severely for wasting a shot. It's not Disciple.
On the other hand, you get higher reward for always hitting with Claymore than you get for using Disciple at its maximum potential. Comes down to player preference.

nicethugbert wrote... 
I probably would not use such a weapon on a caster because it reduces their cooldown.  That might not interfere with the caster's effectiveness and it might actually improve it on the whole.  But, to me it defeats the purpose of the caster.  What makes the caster interesting is their powers not the weapons.  Any character can use the same weapons.  The weapon now competes with your powers rather than works with it.  Luckily, ME3 is the type of game where you have this choice rather than waiting for the developer to patch it in.  I don't see why the choice has to be made for everyone rather than letting everyone make the choice for themselves.

   

Yea, I think BioWare did not get the weight/cooldown system completly right.

nicethugbert wrote... 
Yes, but why does it weigh one third of what a GPS weighs, for example?  What purpose does it serve?  I think the purpose is to take weapons and powers in combination.  If you do more damage with a weapon then you do less damage with a power and visa versa.  Although, BW clearly was not consistent with this idea, hence my mention of proximity mines and tactical cloak.

What I'm getting at is the idea I mentioned above about the relationship between weapons and powers.

When you have to move, as you often do against Phantoms, Brutes, etc.  Then you have to interleave weapon and power use.  I'd like to see a comparison between something like Disciple+Throw/Conc Shot/Stasis/Reeve/Warp/etc. and Claymore/Graal/Wraith + whatever.  I'm betting it's not so easy to do this with a Disciple.

You can spam more throws, conc shot, ARush, Marksman, Carnage, etc. with a Disciple than you can a GPS, etc.  But, you don't need to spam so many throws, etc., with a GPS etc.  You might even score higher spamming less throw and using more GPS.  But does that mean that it takes more skill to use a GPS, Graal, Claymore, etc. than a Disciple, with or without power spam?

  

In my biased opinion, using weapons requires more skill than using powers, because vast majority of them are autoaim.
As for the Disciple, its role is clearly not a damage dealer, unlike Graal/Claymore/GPS/Wraith, at least not on Gold. So comapring them is kinda iffy. It requires the same skill to hit the enemy, Disciple is more forgiving in a sense that a miss does not sink your DPS by 50% or so, but on the other hand you have to hit the enemies more times to kill them. I guess it comes down to a player. If you can aim well, no reason to take the Disciple. If you are not so sure, Disciple is a solid choice. GPS is kinda outliner as it has the largest clip, great damage and solid weight. Very likely the best overall shotgun in the game. Wraith is definitely the best "standard" shotgun as it can one shot most enemies, just like the Claymore or Graal can, but weighs much less. I guess that's why it's Ultra-Rare.

[PlatonicWaffles]

The moment I saw that thing, I did a spittake.

They're putting a ME2 Heavy Weapon equivalent into a standard shotgun?

[tonnactus]

Funny that no one complains about the hurricane on a turian soldier...
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par tonnactus, 02 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[your-friendly-noggin]

tonnactus wrote...

Funny that no one complains about the hurricane on a turian soldier...

Because the hurricane is an weekend challenge weapon, at most people might have hurricane V, the chance that those people also use the turian is not massive, not to mention the turian can't dodge. Compared to a rare weapon that pretty much everyone can use effectively, I'm not saying i agree with a big nerf or anything but there is definitely no comparison between the two.

[tonnactus]

your-friendly-noggin wrote...

Because the hurricane is an weekend challenge weapon, at most people might have hurricane V,

The Hurricane 1 is enough with rate of fire Marksmen evolution. But its strange that the Harrier is an N7 weapon but the reegar isnt. But it doesnt matter if one weapon is more available then the other: Both weapons have a very short range but high damage.
Both,but especially the Hurricane is very light regarding the damage they deal(the Hurricane is far more unbalanced because it deals more damage then a revenant/and the revenant has only one advantage: the magazine)
And only some classes could use those weapons effectively.
By the way, krogans couldnt dodge too.

Modifié par tonnactus, 02 juin 2012 - 06:07 .

[Immortal Strife]

17 pages... Wow this is awsome. Btw the video was great, ghost busters for sure, looked like a lot of fun but also extremely easy. I have not noticed this gun popping up in every lobby like the Krysae so I can assume many don't like it. Here is one observation as it relates to the two new guns; I can equip a Reageer and a Krysae and the two combined weigh as much as my Javelin X, which is a crazy weight to damage ratio.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 02 juin 2012 - 06:12 .