685 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

I've only really read the OP of this thread. Not reading thru 10 pages.

I read it in the hope that I would find some sort of plausible explanation for Synthesis. I was wrong.

All the OP does is hand wave it away by ignoring the issues people have with the Synthesis choices. He doesn't explain WHY he thinks the choice "makes sense".
Probably because it actually doesnt.

What he really seems to mean is that he doesn't have an issue with the endings at all, and that he was able to suspend his disbelief over them where many others couldnt.
And that's fine; but its vastly different from explaining why any of the endings make sense.

[Vigilant111]

Time and time again I have to stress that people should separate headcanon from lying to oneself, u cannot headcanon something that is so profoundly foul

[Zardoc]

Yay for mass eugenics I guess.

[Fixers0]

[quote]Vigilant111 wrote...


[/quote]

Be careful, synthesis supporters may use this to paint an idealistic image of their choice that conflicts will cease, however, it can be quickly refuted by us saying organic/organic conflicts will ensue

[/quote]

Well that's ironically what u exactly  want, see our entire civilization is based around conflict, this so-called haromony is destructive to our entire society and will lead to unpredictable results, such as mass-suicide.

[The Night Mammoth]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Time and time again I have to stress that people should separate headcanon from lying to oneself, u cannot headcanon something that is so profoundly foul

Eh, yes you can, that's kind of the point of headcanoning stuff. 

[dreman9999]

[quote]Fixers0 wrote...

[quote]Vigilant111 wrote...


[/quote]

Be careful, synthesis supporters may use this to paint an idealistic image of their choice that conflicts will cease, however, it can be quickly refuted by us saying organic/organic conflicts will ensue

[/quote]

Well that's ironically what u exactly  want, see our entire civilization is based around conflict, this so-called haromony is destructive to our entire society and will lead to unpredictable results, such as mass-suicide.

[/quote]I won't go that far but fixer0 is the first person to hit on what the reapers really think the problem is.

[phagus]

I honestly can't see how any of the options solve the Catalyst's problem.

Synthesis: Synthetics can still be created by the hybrids, evolution of pure organics can still occur. Arguably synthesis makes extinction of life more likely as hybrids are probably harder to kill so weapons in wars between them have to be more advanced and deadlier to have the same impact.

Control/Destroy: The problem as the catalyst sees it with synthetics killing all life is still there.

Synthesis also seems to cause more problems than it solves and doesn't have any other benefits. It doesn't stop inequality, disease (as bacteria,virus's etc are affected as well), environmental destruction/pollution (perhaps it changes their nature and impact), famine (do hybrids even need to eat?), competition over resources/living space and future conflict between hybrids.

The religious implications of synthesis are also dire. I would hate to think how Synthesis would impact on the mental wellbeing of someone who is religious and finds that they are no longer made in gods image.

Coming to terms with being forcibly changed into a hybrid would negatively impact on the mental wellbeing of countless millions across the galaxy.

Racial or religious intolerance would increase as The Shepard is human. It would probably create new types as some people might worship The Shepard as a new God. And what would be the result? Mass suicide? A war? Would old animosity between races cease?

So what has Shepard achieved by choosing any of these options apart from removing the threat of the Reapers? A threat caused by the Catalyst in the first place. Answer..Nothing.

There is another problem. How are races that weren't part of the Reaper conflict, being in systems beyond mapped relays, effected? If their relays were destroyed and/or their synthetics all killed or their races forcibly hybridized with synthetics. How would they react when they came into contact with the races that caused it. I see a massive set of conflicts right there.

Modifié par phagus, 02 juin 2012 - 05:16 .

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
I won't go that far but fixer0 is the first person to hit on what the reapers really think the problem is.

Evidently not. 

They think the problem is synthetics eventually and inevitably becoming genocidal. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. How you interpete it is point less because you not the one appling the result of the choice. In fact Shepard is well dead by then...the Star child is the one.

Erm, I am the one applying the result, because we literally have no clue what it is. You come up with your own outcome.

Your's seems to be based on Shepard's death, stating it as fact, despite having no evidence. 

You don't apply the resuslt. Bythe time you do, Shepard is turned to ash. You can control how the choices are appied at all.

[Bill Casey]

JakeJynx wrote...

You still have the issue of an impending destruction via synthetic uprising.

This is so ****ing racist...

[LadyJaneGrey]

What stopped me from considering synthesis (aside from altering all creatures, both organic and synthetic, into one homogenous whole without their consent), was the notion that peace could be achieved if all life had the same DNA. Yeah...since we've NEVER seen humans fighting humans, organics fighting organics, or synthetics fighting synthetics. Being the same species doesn't make you automatically cooperative and peaceful, glowing-whatever-you-are-in-child-form.

[dreman9999]

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, one is telling youhow to interprite anything. In fact, when someone gives a vague awnser, they want you to interprate what it think it means...It's doesn't mean that it means what you think it means. This to same tactic lawyers do to cheat people. Added, you never given control to what everything you lose is, you just have control on the choice you pick. 
What I'm sayin gis you have all the power to interperate the meaning of the vague statement, but that does not mean that's how it applied because you are not the one appling it...The star child is and he want you to interperate what it mean so you won't see what it really means.

But if you can point to me where you the player is given the option in the game to choose what the everything you lose in the game is, then you can say it's what were you say it is...

Yes, you are. You're screaming (or maybe whistling would be more accurate) to anyone who will listen that "everything" HAS to mean everything.

And you really are amazing. You admit something is vague, that is intentionally vague, that we are meant to interpret it was we will, and then you want in-game proof from people to PROVE that  their interpretation is valid? Do you even read what you post? If there was in-game proof of something, it wouldn't be vague, would it?

Point to me in the story that you can choose the limit of everything and then we can go on...

OMG last post and then I'm done with you. Point to me the part of the story where I have to assume "you will lose everything you have" means Shepard ceases to exist in any form.

If it was in the story, it wouldn't be vague. You admit it's vague, so you're admitting it's not in the story, so you're admitting that no one's interpretation is wrong. We don't all see it like you do. Get over it.

1. I never said shepard would  cease to exist. A person can still exist with out his memories.
2. It is vague. No exact meaning of anything wasgiven to all the choices but destroy.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. How you interpete it is point less because you not the one appling the result of the choice. In fact Shepard is well dead by then...the Star child is the one.

Erm, I am the one applying the result, because we literally have no clue what it is. You come up with your own outcome.

Your's seems to be based on Shepard's death, stating it as fact, despite having no evidence. 

You don't apply the resuslt. Bythe time you do, Shepard is turned to ash. You can control how the choices are appied at all.

See, that's complete conjecture. 

Believe it if you want, I don't care. Believe that it's all a dream too, I don't care either.

But that conclusion, that Shepard dies? Speculation, nothing more, nothing less. 

I speculate differently, so yeah, it's me applying the results, using my imagination. Deal with it. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I won't go that far but fixer0 is the first person to hit on what the reapers really think the problem is.

Evidently not. 

They think the problem is synthetics eventually and inevitably becoming genocidal. 

No, the reapers don't think that. Look at the wya they treat synthetic andcompear it to their treat meant of organics....
The reapers used deplomacy twice with the geth....
But use mind control with organics. I mind control that attacks the part of the mind that controls emotion in organics.

Now, take not to the reason why the geth even rebeled in the first place.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I won't go that far but fixer0 is the first person to hit on what the reapers really think the problem is.

Evidently not. 

They think the problem is synthetics eventually and inevitably becoming genocidal. 

No, the reapers don't think that. Look at the wya they treat synthetic andcompear it to their treat meant of organics....
The reapers used deplomacy twice with the geth....
But use mind control with organics. I mind control that attacks the part of the mind that controls emotion in organics.

Now, take not to the reason why the geth even rebeled in the first place.

The Catalyst would disagree. The Reapers do believe that. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. How you interpete it is point less because you not the one appling the result of the choice. In fact Shepard is well dead by then...the Star child is the one.

Erm, I am the one applying the result, because we literally have no clue what it is. You come up with your own outcome.

Your's seems to be based on Shepard's death, stating it as fact, despite having no evidence. 

You don't apply the resuslt. Bythe time you do, Shepard is turned to ash. You can control how the choices are appied at all.

See, that's complete conjecture. 

Believe it if you want, I don't care. Believe that it's all a dream too, I don't care either.

But that conclusion, that Shepard dies? Speculation, nothing more, nothing less. 

I speculate differently, so yeah, it's me applying the results, using my imagination. Deal with it. 

....So you can stay alive as ash?
Also, in control I never said Shepard would died...I mean he could lose him mamories as well as everything else.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

....So you can stay alive as ash?

Yep! Providing my consiousness isn't in that body at the time. 

Also, in control I never said Shepard would died...I mean he could lose him mamories as well as everything else.

 
You said that several times actually, in this post even. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I won't go that far but fixer0 is the first person to hit on what the reapers really think the problem is.

Evidently not. 

They think the problem is synthetics eventually and inevitably becoming genocidal. 

No, the reapers don't think that. Look at the wya they treat synthetic andcompear it to their treat meant of organics....
The reapers used deplomacy twice with the geth....
But use mind control with organics. I mind control that attacks the part of the mind that controls emotion in organics.

Now, take not to the reason why the geth even rebeled in the first place.

The Catalyst would disagree. The Reapers do believe that. 

The catalyst who control the reapers and made them use deplomacy wih the geth but mind control with the organics and say refering to organics when taking about the conflict at low ems"You bring it on yourselves" doesn't think organics are the problem?

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Time and time again I have to stress that people should separate headcanon from lying to oneself, u cannot headcanon something that is so profoundly foul

Eh, yes you can, that's kind of the point of headcanoning stuff. 

What you think happens after is not what happens after. Head cannon can't be used as fact.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 juin 2012 - 05:23 .

[Lord Goose]

Or the Catalyst is a liar. Or it's all a trick. There are many interpretations to this horrible scene.

Or nothing ever happened and everything just a dream to begin with. Or fictional story which Stargazer tells his kid. It is impossible to logically prove that Catalyst was not lying (because what would be proving the negative). And most certainly the message at the end of the game is independed from Catalyst.

Harbinger: "ORDER COUNTERMANDED, RESUME HARVESTING."

Oh, yeah. And in the Destroy ending they would just get up and resume harvest. You don't see them in pieces, right?

By the Catalyst's troll logic, a TS could happen in another galaxy and make it's way here.

Because they have never even once paid attention to that happenings outside this Galaxy, its not safe to assume that its possible. Maybe the whole universe is not habitable except Milky Way.

The Reaper philosophy in synthesis is vindicated. They were right all along. The problem has been dealt with on their terms. They have won.

Yes. They were fighting against chaos. Now chaos is eliminated. Its beneficial for all sides.

NOTHING justifies genocide! Nothing! The moment you resort to mass murder, you are wrong.

The problem is mass murder. Not ideas what you brought you up to muss murder. Unless they're "mass murder for mass murder", of course.

So? Do you honestly think all the other galaxies are empty?

I'm not going to speculate, that's I'm sure of.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst who control the reapers and made them use deplomacy wih the geth but mind control with the organics and say refering to organics when taking about the conflict at low ems"You bring it on yourselves" doesn't think organics are the problem?

You've moved on to something completely different now. 

It thinks the problem is synthetics wiping out all organics inevitably. 

Whether it thinks organics and their nature are the cause, or synthetics and their nature is, or whether it's something completely different, is for you to decide. 

But that is what it thinks is the problem, synthetics genociding organics. 

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Time and time again I have to stress that people should separate headcanon from lying to oneself, u cannot headcanon something that is so profoundly foul

Eh, yes you can, that's kind of the point of headcanoning stuff. 

What you think happens after is not what happens after. Head cannon can't be used as fact.

Sure. 

Did anyone ever state otherwise? 

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...
Harbinger and Sovereign revelled in their roles. Were their opinions subverted too?

Did you read my post about Reapers being mind-controlled? True mind-control subverts the will (as opposed to what people usually associate - that's not the mind being controlled, but the body). You are doing what your master wants without being aware of having subverted. 

If Synthesis means that in *your* ME universe, then by all means don't choose it. It doesn't mean that in *my* ME universe. Since they're not enemies any more and Synthesis has leveled the playing field, it will now be possible to communicate with them. See the unofficial epilogues. The high-EMS Synthesis ending is rather close to what I envision.

No, it means that in every ME universe. Don't start getting meta on me to justify your attempts to headcanon your way out of synthesis' blatant implications.
Synthesis has levelled nothing. We are now approved by the Reapers, but the Reapers have nothing to apologise for because... and I know you don't want to accept this.. they won. Their actions have been fully justified in their minds. They are superior. They have shown the way for all life.

Don't tell me what things mean in my head, damn it!!!!!!! You have no sovereignity of interpretation over the ME universe. First you're attempting to canonize headcanon - that "serve the Reapers" thing is something *you* put in - and when I reject it because it's pure interpretation you try the same again as if nothing happened? What I am actually doing is to pave the way for coexistence. In my interpretation, Synthesis does level the playing field - I've outlined that in my thread - and you have nothing to contradict that. 

Besides, you're putting this in terms of karma and justice. That's not the way I think about this, and who are you to tell me that I should?

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Did you read my post about Reapers being mind-controlled? True mind-control subverts the will (as opposed to what people usually associate - that's not the mind being controlled, but the body). You are doing what your master wants without being aware of having subverted. 

And you're going to enjoy it too?
You're going to make extremely detailed arguments about it?
Sure you are. Even the Reaper's own indoctrination doesn't work that way.

Don't tell me what things mean in my head, damn it!!!!!!!

I'm telling you what things actually mean. Welcome to reality.

You have no sovereignity of interpretation over the ME universe. First you're attempting to canonize headcanon - that "serve the Reapers" thing is something *you* put in - and when I reject it because it's pure interpretation you try the same again as if nothing happened? What I am actually doing is to pave the way for coexistence. In my interpretation, Synthesis does level the playing field - I've outlined that in my thread - and you have nothing to contradict that. 

You've outlined nothing. You've made up crap, headcanoned your way through synthesis and put all that in your propaganda thread. You have nothing solid and you know it.
I am taking points from the game, you're making complete assumptions like "the Reapers are mind controlled", "synthesis levels everything" and "synthesis improves body and mind to unheard of levels!".

We are shown NOTHING of this. What we are shown is that synthesis is what the Catalyst and  the Reapers want and approve of. What we are shown is that the entire population of the galaxy is violated on a genetic level. What we are shown is that the Reapers have stopped harvesting because their goal was achieved. That is what we're shown.

Besides, you're putting this in terms of karma and justice. That's not the way I think about this, and who are you to tell me that I should?

Karma has nothing to do with it. The Reaper philosophy has been vindicated in synthesis. Fact.
You can headcanon your way out of it all you want, but it remains.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

....So you can stay alive as ash?

Yep! Providing my consiousness isn't in that body at the time. 

Also, in control I never said Shepard would died...I mean he could lose him mamories as well as everything else.

 
You said that several times actually, in this post even. 

let's go backto that post on memeories. I never shepard said Shepard would die...The starchild did. But I did say there is no limit to everything in the comment "Lose everything you have." And memeories is partof everything you have. If no limit is give to the statement everything....What stops it from being lost?
Saying that it's open to interpertation ignores the fact that you not appling how it's interpated. You only give the option to choose a salution , not how they are applied. Shepard is dead by then. He has no say on how it's applied and nether do you. You can interprate the statement how you like but that does menat it'a how it interpraed. And if you imposed that it does you hve toprove when you have the option to choose how your choices are applied.