685 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

I brought upthe fact that there is no limit indected in the comment "EVERYTHING YOU HAVE" and nothing points to the exclution of memories.

Be logical.

1. Shepard loses everything.
2. Reapers are flying away.
3. The message says that Reaper's threat is ended.

Ergo, he doesn't need "everything" (whatever what means), because Reaper's threat is ended. Now, your logic goes like that:

1. Shepard loses everything.
2. He can't stop Reapers threat without everything.
3. He can't stop Reapers threat.

You're basically ignoring that happening in game in favour of your interpretation. Not sure what is this - trolling or...

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
What does the star child means when he says at low ems..."You bring this on yourselves"?

You decide. 

That's still not my point though, so whatever it means is irrelevant. 

No it's not. Untill you give a reason why it's irrelivent it can't be irrelivent. And everything he star child says is relivent.

I already told you why. 

The Catalyst has a problem. You tried to deny that was the problem. You were wrong. 

The sentence you quoted is likely to do with the cause of the problem. That is irreleant to the original point. 

Prove to me he has a problem first before saying he has a problem. And everything the star child says is relivent.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

Prove to me he has a problem first before saying he has a problem. And everything the star child says is relivent.

No. 

I know what it thinks is the problem.

Whether that problem is legitimate is another argument entirely. 

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

I brought upthe fact that there is no limit indected in the comment "EVERYTHING YOU HAVE" and nothing points to the exclution of memories.

Be logical.

1. Shepard loses everything.
2. Reapers are flying away.
3. The message says that Reaper's threat is ended.

Ergo, he doesn't need "everything" (whatever what means), because Reaper's threat is ended. Now, your logic goes like that:

1. Shepard loses everything.
2. He can't stop Reapers threat without everything.
3. He can't stop Reapers threat.

You're basically ignoring that happening in game in favour of your interpretation. Not sure what is this - trolling or...

It you can prove to me everything we see is real, Then we can go with your arguement in a direction on what you think happens is happening...

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But that doesn't mean that what he says is irrlevent. Not you just said made the comment"You bring it on your selves " irrelevent. You don't even have proof that the catalyst has the problem.

I know what the Catalys thinks is the problem, and I was telling you what it is. 

That sentence, considering you could interpret it in a number of ways, and that you didn't actually give one, makes it irrelevant to the original point. 

That's all, I'm not continuing this pointless debate. 

But why does he say we bring it on ourselves?

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
It you can prove to me everything we see is real, Then we can go with your arguement in a direction on what you think happens is happening...

He doesn't have to. It being real is taken as a given. Prove otherwise.

Actually, don't bother. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Prove to me he has a problem first before saying he has a problem. And everything the star child says is relivent.

No. 

I know what it thinks is the problem.

Whether that problem is legitimate is another argument entirely. 

Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 juin 2012 - 06:21 .

[Ieldra]

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

[Taboo]

Chaos reigns essentially.

Where's that fox from Antichrist, the one tearing at it's own innards?

It's kind of like that.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

Which, of course, is not true. Rannoch, when the quarians and geth unite, prove the reapers wrong. Javik explains that the protheans dealt with synthetics in their own way by exterminating them. So, two cycles in succession have dealt with that inevitability in their own way. Still, the reapers continued their genocides. They have to. Not because synthetics are a threat, but because harvesting civilizations and technology is their way of reproduction and their method to stay on top of the food chain.

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

Which, of course, is not true. Rannoch, when the quarians and geth unite, prove the reapers wrong. Javik explains that the protheans dealt with synthetics in their own way by exterminating them. So, two cycles in succession have dealt with that inevitability in their own way. Still, the reapers continued their genocides. They have to. Not because synthetics are a threat, but because harvesting civilizations and technology is their way of reproduction and their method to stay on top of the food chain.

Two cycles among how many? Also, those synthetics hadn't experienced a singularity. If the geth continue to exist, they'll get there soon. What happens after that may be what the Catalyst is trying to prevent.

Of course, you are free to think the Reapers are doing that just for reproduction and choose accordingly. I happen to think otherwise....and choose accordingly.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

Which, of course, is not true. Rannoch, when the quarians and geth unite, prove the reapers wrong. Javik explains that the protheans dealt with synthetics in their own way by exterminating them. So, two cycles in succession have dealt with that inevitability in their own way. Still, the reapers continued their genocides. They have to. Not because synthetics are a threat, but because harvesting civilizations and technology is their way of reproduction and their method to stay on top of the food chain.

Two cycles among how many? Also, those synthetics hadn't experienced a singularity. If the geth continue to exist, they'll get there soon. What happens after that may be what the Catalyst is trying to prevent.

Of course, you are free to think the Reapers are doing that just for reproduction and choose accordingly. I happen to think otherwise....and choose accordingly.

If you keep reaping before the singularity occurs how can you assume it is a certain conclusion that created will destory creators?

Modifié par wright1978, 02 juin 2012 - 07:19 .

[o Ventus]

JakeJynx wrote...

Further, the Geth cannot really be used as an example of how "organics and synthetics can get along." Why? Because they're no longer true synthetics after Legion uploads the Reaper code fragments. They synthesize. They are given the equivalent of a human brain. It's only after this occurs, only after this synthesis, that the Geth and the Quarians are able to cooperate as equals. I see this as foreshadowing--that a change must be made to life before there can be peace.

No, they aren't. Post-Legion geth are the same as geth before Legion sacrifices itself. The geth gain intelligence because Legion's sacrifice uploaded the Reaper code to every geth platform and program. They did not in any way develop new parts. There is no synthesis involved AT ALL.

Also, Synthesis is the only ending that does NOTHING AT ALL about the Reapers. They just leave, with no exposition given as to why or if they'll come back and continue harvesting. Destroy is the only concrete ending, and Control is heavily implied to get rid of the Reapers for good. Synthesis... Not at all.

[Bill Casey]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

 It being real is taken as a given.

It really isn't...



Like, not at all...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 02 juin 2012 - 07:22 .

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

Which, of course, is not true. Rannoch, when the quarians and geth unite, prove the reapers wrong. Javik explains that the protheans dealt with synthetics in their own way by exterminating them. So, two cycles in succession have dealt with that inevitability in their own way. Still, the reapers continued their genocides. They have to. Not because synthetics are a threat, but because harvesting civilizations and technology is their way of reproduction and their method to stay on top of the food chain.

Two cycles among how many? Also, those synthetics hadn't experienced a singularity. If the geth continue to exist, they'll get there soon. What happens after that may be what the Catalyst is trying to prevent.

Of course, you are free to think the Reapers are doing that just for reproduction and choose accordingly. I happen to think otherwise....and choose accordingly.

You are assuming such a singularity has already happened in-universe, when all the evidence points to it NOT having happened yet. If such a super powerful AI construct that has wiped out all organic life really existed, where is it? Why are there no traces of it? Why does organic life still exist? Surely, the AI wouldn't only kill some organics, but not the others (Nevermind that mass genocide is the least practical route the AI could possibly take, but that's a different matter itself).

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then what does he mean by "you bring this on your selves"?

Organics build synthetics....who will eventually surpass and destroy them. Thus, they're bringing the chaos on themselves.

Which, of course, is not true. Rannoch, when the quarians and geth unite, prove the reapers wrong. Javik explains that the protheans dealt with synthetics in their own way by exterminating them. So, two cycles in succession have dealt with that inevitability in their own way. Still, the reapers continued their genocides. They have to. Not because synthetics are a threat, but because harvesting civilizations and technology is their way of reproduction and their method to stay on top of the food chain.

Two cycles among how many? Also, those synthetics hadn't experienced a singularity. If the geth continue to exist, they'll get there soon. What happens after that may be what the Catalyst is trying to prevent.

Of course, you are free to think the Reapers are doing that just for reproduction and choose accordingly. I happen to think otherwise....and choose accordingly.

Two cycles. Exactly. We do not know about what went on in the other cycles. In the cycles from which we have info the reapers just betray organics to safeguard their own reproduction. Your belief system, the one which defends that the created always rebel against their creators and that organics cannot deal with that, have been proved wrong twice. There is no evidence for your belief system whatsover.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
If you keep reaping before the singularity occurs how can you assume it is a certain conclusion that created will destory creators?

For the same reason the salarians knew that curing the genophage would always result in war. Simulations. Simulations are a very powerful tool for prediction, if set up correctly and fed with correct data. Of course, simulations can also be incorrect if fed with incorrect information. The results of simulations have a "confidence", defined as the probability that the predictions are true, assuming that the unknown factors of the simulation are random. So it's possible to say something like "With a probability of 98%, organics in the galaxy will be extinct ten million years after a singularity has occurred" based on a simulation.

This has, for instance, been used in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, where the development of whole civilizations was predicted. Asimov later went back on his premise because he thought it sent a message of fatalism to the people who read his stories, but the principle nonetheless holds. If you know the laws that govern the behaviour of an entity, you can make valid predictions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
If you keep reaping before the singularity occurs how can you assume it is a certain conclusion that created will destory creators?

For the same reason the salarians knew that curing the genophage would always result in war. Simulations. Simulations are a very powerful tool for prediction, if set up correctly and fed with correct data. Of course, simulations can also be incorrect if fed with incorrect information. The results of simulations have a "confidence", defined as the probability that the predictions are true, assuming that the unknown factors of the simulation are random. So it's possible to say something like "With a probability of 98%, organics in the galaxy will be extinct ten million years after a singularity has occurred" based on a simulation.
This has, for instance, been used in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, where the development of whole civilizations was predicted. Asimov later went back on his premise because he thought it sent a message of fatalism to the people who read his stories, but the principle nonetheless holds. If you know the laws that govern the behaviour of an entity, you can make valid predictions.

It's funny, because the salarians are also wrong, but that's off topic.

I'd also like to see the simulations the Catalyst ran to come to this wildly stupid and inane conclusion. Wait...

[AngryFrozenWater]

Reaper, some time after the Morning War: "Oh dear! Those synthetics defended themselves. We can't have that. It would prove our theory wrong. Saren!"

Saren: "Yes, my dear, Sovereign the Almighty?"

Reaper: "I've just got you some heretics by infecting geth with the Pentium FDIV bug. That'll turn them against organics. Lead them to victory!"

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
If you keep reaping before the singularity occurs how can you assume it is a certain conclusion that created will destory creators?

For the same reason the salarians knew that curing the genophage would always result in war. Simulations. Simulations are a very powerful tool for prediction, if set up correctly and fed with correct data. Of course, simulations can also be incorrect if fed with incorrect information. The results of simulations have a "confidence", defined as the probability that the predictions are true, assuming that the unknown factors of the simulation are random. So it's possible to say something like "With a probability of 98%, organics in the galaxy will be extinct ten million years after a singularity has occurred" based on a simulation.

This has, for instance, been used in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, where the development of whole civilizations was predicted. Asimov later went back on his premise because he thought it sent a message of fatalism to the people who read his stories, but the principle nonetheless holds. If you know the laws that govern the behaviour of an entity, you can make valid predictions.

Problem with simulations is they are open to bias. Need proof to show that you have entered correct variables. Reapers never let it get to that stage they interrupt the experiment before it has run its course. Their simulations are biased imo.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that the Geth always wanted peace and cooperation, Reaper code or not.

Yet the Heretics didn't - and apparently the only difference between them is .00001.

There's one other minor difference. I mean it's very minor.
You know, Sovereign. I mean, it's not like Sovereign has a history of controlling beings for it's own ends or anything

You need to stop using this excuse to evade the fact of the situation. Sovereign controlled no-one. The heretics willingly left the main faction of the geth to join the Reapers. They weren't controlled in any sense of the word.

But if you have proof, I'd be quite happy to see it.

[Ieldra]

@AngryFrozenWater:
*sigh* We're talking in circles. If a super-intelligent AI tells me that something will happen based on simulations it's been running, then I'm well-advised to take this seriously. Yes, I will ask how the apparent counter-evidence fits into that scheme, and that I can't is a major writing failure, but what happened in this cycle and the last is not conclusive, since these synthetics had not experienced a singularity yet.

Also, there's the worst-case scenario: what happens if I don't take it seriously and I'm wrong? Yeah, I've doomed organics to extinction. What happens if I take it seriously but the Catalyst was wrong? Yeah, I've leveled the galaxy up without a pressing need. Sorry if I prefer the latter scenario.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@AngryFrozenWater:
*sigh* We're talking in circles. If a super-intelligent AI tells me that something will happen based on simulations it's been running, then I'm well-advised to take this seriously. Yes, I will ask how the apparent counter-evidence fits into that scheme, and that I can't is a major writing failure, but what happened in this cycle and the last is not conclusive, since these synthetics had not experienced a singularity yet.

Also, there's the worst-case scenario: what happens if I don't take it seriously and I'm wrong? Yeah, I've doomed organics to extinction. What happens if I take it seriously but the Catalyst was wrong? Yeah, I've leveled the galaxy up without a pressing need. Sorry if I prefer the latter scenario.

No. You are talking in circles. That's because you believe their circular logic.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, there's the worst-case scenario: what happens if I don't take it seriously and I'm wrong? Yeah, I've doomed organics to extinction. What happens if I take it seriously but the Catalyst was wrong? Yeah, I've leveled the galaxy up without a pressing need. Sorry if I prefer the latter scenario.

False dilemma, it’s extinction at some point in the future. Also, this presupposes that said extinction isn’t exactly the same as whatever Synthesis is supposed to be (since there won’t be any organics left after it, either). Also, it could be that the guys in the next galaxy think that Synthesisics are the worst abomination in the ever, and nuke the whole Milky Way.

The thing about unknowable future is just that.

Modifié par lillitheris, 02 juin 2012 - 07:50 .

[o Ventus]

JackumsD wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that the Geth always wanted peace and cooperation, Reaper code or not.

Yet the Heretics didn't - and apparently the only difference between them is .00001.

There's one other minor difference. I mean it's very minor.
You know, Sovereign. I mean, it's not like Sovereign has a history of controlling beings for it's own ends or anything

You need to stop using this excuse to evade the fact of the situation. Sovereign controlled no-one. The heretics willingly left the main faction of the geth to join the Reapers. They weren't controlled in any sense of the word.

But if you have proof, I'd be quite happy to see it.

The heretics broke off from the mainstream geth because of a math error. Whether this error was orchestrated or not by Sovereign we have no idea. When Sovereign approached them, they sided with it. Sovereign DID control the heretic geth. Sovereign all but tells you to your face. Hell, he tells you the geth are but a means to an end, merely tools to be used to further his purpose.