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[Ieldra]

If Synthesis is a fairy tale, then why the hell is Shepard dead? That *hurts*, you know? Also if you read my interpretation in my other thread, you'll notice that I removed all the utopian connotations.

Yes, I said that about Destroy some time ago, but that was when we were debating something else. It was not relevant to the discussion at this point. And I know that *your* reasons for choosing Destroy are different, my point about vengeance was originally aimed at AngryFrozenWater, I only explained it to you because you appeared to misunderstand what that exchange was about.

So...confusion everywhere it seems, in spite of my efforts to make clear which is aimed at whom. Please note when I complained about the false "reasoning", I did not target you either, only said that I am seeing too much of that in these debates.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2: just cos Shepard lives does not make it a fairy tale

You don't have to make it any clearer than it already is...WE UNDERSTAND where u are coming from, we are just surprised to see u getting so much out of practically nothing, hence the fan fiction banters, we appreciate your artistic visions, but they feel more and more like science fantasy than science fiction

[Ieldra]

My scenario is better grounded in science than any other I've seen so far. Including Bioware's. The only part I haven't touched is "how does it come about?"

As for how do I get so much out of it? Read my other thread, then you'll know. The endings require expanding to be satisfying, so I'll do that. Beats endlessly complaining any day. Defiance is better than depression. If Bioware doesn't give me a satisfying ending, then I'll go and make one from the wreck.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juin 2012 - 12:38 .

[Helios969]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Helios et al:
(1) There is no indication that Synthesis replaces anything with tech. If anything, Synthesis *adds* tech.
(2) Mordin's argument is flawed. It assumes that it was the purpose of the Collectors' tech upgrades to remove limitations. That argument defeats itself when we meet the Collectors. They are rather unimpressive. It's rather that the tech replacements kept them going after indoctrination destroyed their normal functions.
(3) There are always limitations unless you're omnipotent. Gaining greater capabilities is desirable because it enables you to accept greater challenges and gain greater understanding.
(4) This is just the opinion of one character in the game. A pretty smart one, yeah, but one whose arguments I can easily pick apart nonetheless.

Note that I explicitly reject the utopian interpretation of Synthesis. I've said as much in the EC threads where I said it was necessary to give us a description that avoids utopian imagery, nonsensical concepts and metaphors easily misunderstood. I want a bright future, not a stagnating one.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, your response just stimulated a response.

Well I've brought this point up in other posts but it seems to me the "correct" choice comes down to who you trust: your companions, TIM and/or the Reapers.  Through various dialogue threads and companion interactions most people should have come to the Destroy conclusion unless they actually agreed with Saren and Sovereign or Illusive Man.

If you select Control, you are essentially following the logic of Illusive Man and the Reapers.  Didn't we all recoil at an almost fundamental level when we learned of indoctrination and observed what it did to Benezia and Saren?  And yet some would follow the same logic.  Illusive Man spends the entirety of ME2 & 3 trying to convince you control is the only way.   Didn't most (all) of us rail against TIM for this line of thought and his the end justifies any of the many attrocious means?  Harbinger:  I am assuming direct control. 

If you select Synthesis, you are still following the Reaper's logic.  Saren "allowed" himself to be upgraded by Sovereign.  I guess TIM did too (still don't quite understand what's going on with him during that ending sequence.)  But most abhorrent to me is that I'd be stripping the freewill of all sentient life across the galaxy.  I hate that destroy (supposedly) results in the destruction of EDI and the Geth after I came to really appreciate EDI and Legion, and worked so hard at brokering a peace between the Quarians and Geth, but I will not affect hundreds of billions (or trillions) of sentients in order to save millions of machines (even sentient ones) from destruction.  Especially when I believe it will result in a galaxy of what Mordin describes.  And I'm not so sure Legion would not agree with my logic.  When discussing the Heretics with Legion during ME2...

LEGION:  All intelligent life should self-determinate.  The Heretics no longer share this belief.  They judge that forcing an invalid conclusion on us is preferable to a continued schism.  The Heretics chose a path that prohibits coexistence.

Just saying.  Not sure what Legion would say if he were present at the end.  Probably "we are building a consensus.  Try again later."

[Aiyie]

than there is no eternal conflict between synthetics and organics. Why should I change the DNA of everyone in the Galaxy without their consent andwithout knowing anything about the outcome or the process involved to solve a problem that doesn't even exists? And, the best part, isn't really solved at all, as synthetics can still be created to wipe out half-synthetics...

evidence kinda disproves this, actually.

as much as i hate to admit it, the catalyst may have been right in his logic.

first, the protheans were involved in a rather nasty war with a synthetic race when the reapers showed up in their cycle.

second, the geth and quarians.  i know, i know... but Shepard stopped that war and now everybody is working together!  well, its pretty safe to assume that Shepard is a pretty exceptional variable in the pattern.

also... don't forget that the geth, even though they were acting in self-defense, were about to WIPE OUT THE QUARIANS after shep took out the Reaper on Rannoch.

if shep hadn't been there, or even if she was and hadn't been quite to persuasive... THE GETH WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE QUARIAN RACE.

everybody looks at the catalysts logic from the standpoint of, "synthetics will always attack organics and wipe them out." but nobody ever remembers that it could be the other way round, "organics will always attack synthetics and force the synthetics to wipe them out in self-defense."

now then... that out of the way... outside of the dubious moral implications involved with synthesis, there's also the problem of how it works never being adequately explained.  i know, sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic... but having never had anything even remotely similiar to this event happen in the narrative earlier... its just too unbelievable to be acceptable.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@I2:

You said: "I most emphatically believe that it is more fruitful for the future to seek for communication and explanation instead of cutting off all possibility of that with the apodictic statement 'They're evil.'"

Yes. The reapers show no empathy, have no ethics, violate the right of self-determination and have no morale, but know how to apply fear in the most horrific way imaginable. In our society we lock up serial killers like that. The reapers are too big for that. And it is way too late. Shepard asked several times what their intentions were. The reapers refused to reveal their intentions and went on with their insane killing spree.

Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

I expect better from BW. Give me an ending that makes sense, please. One that takes into account what Shepard stood for. BW should not pull a reaper-off switch and an ABC ending (things we were promised not to get) out of their hat in the last minutes of the game.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juin 2012 - 12:43 .

[Vigilant111]

Aiyie wrote...

evidence kinda disproves this, actually.

as much as i hate to admit it, the catalyst may have been right in his logic.

first, the protheans were involved in a rather nasty war with a synthetic race when the reapers showed up in their cycle.

second, the geth and quarians.  i know, i know... but Shepard stopped that war and now everybody is working together!  well, its pretty safe to assume that Shepard is a pretty exceptional variable in the pattern.

also... don't forget that the geth, even though they were acting in self-defense, were about to WIPE OUT THE QUARIANS after shep took out the Reaper on Rannoch.

if shep hadn't been there, or even if she was and hadn't been quite to persuasive... THE GETH WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE QUARIAN RACE.

everybody looks at the catalysts logic from the standpoint of, "synthetics will always attack organics and wipe them out." but nobody ever remembers that it could be the other way round, "organics will always attack synthetics and force the synthetics to wipe them out in self-defense."

now then... that out of the way... outside of the dubious moral implications involved with synthesis, there's also the problem of how it works never being adequately explained.  i know, sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic... but having never had anything even remotely similiar to this event happen in the narrative earlier... its just too unbelievable to be acceptable.

Don't you think it is a bit dramatic to wipe out your creators purely for self-defense? the thing is, I believe that both Quarians and the Geth have done some stupid stuff, so they are pretty even

The Quarians seem perfectly competent in wiping out the Geth still regardless of with or without Shepard's help

EDIT: war assets values pretty even

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[General User]

The biggest problem I have with Synthesis is that it doesn't actually stop the Reapers at all. It doesn't nullify or eliminate the threat.

In Synthesis the Reapers still exist and (presumably, and for the first time ever) aren't under anyone or anything's control. Instead of one enormous threat, Synthesis creates umpteen hundred/thousand different threats.

Releasing untold thousands of uncontrollable killbots on an already devastated galaxy is quite unconscionable.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Aiyie: The Metecom War was won by the protheans and their synthetics never dominated the organics in the end. The protheans dealt with them. No need to exterminate the protheans after they were able to control the situation.

The quarians kept on attacking the geth. The only hostile geth were the heretics. Those were infected by the reapers with the Pentium FDIV bug which was supposed to result in their adoration for the reapers. If synthetics are supposed to be a threat to organics then it doesn't make sense to make them fight organics when they are in peace. The geth did not wipe out the quarians in the Morning War. They retreated, because their was no consensus to exterminate them.

Again, the quarians attacked the geth on Rannoch. The reapers even tried to take control over those geth. If Shepard didn't stop the reapers from taking over control of the geth then the quarians were wiped out by reaper controlled geth.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[Vigilant111]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@I2:

You said: "I most emphatically believe that it is more fruitful for the future to seek for communication and explanation instead of cutting off all possibility of that with the apodictic statement 'They're evil.'"

Yes. The reapers show no empathy, have no ethics, violate the right of self-determination and have no morale, but know how to apply fear in the most horrific way imaginable. In our society we lock up serial killers like that. The reapers are too big for that. And it is way too late. Shepard asked several times what their intentions were. The reapers refused to reveal their intentions and went on with their insane killing spree.

Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

I expect better from BW. Give me an ending that makes sense, please. One that takes into account what Shepard stood for. BW should not pull a reaper-off switch and an ABC ending (things we were promised not to get) out of their hat in the last minutes of the game.

It is a non-existing problem because:

1) no concrete proof that synthetics will destroy creators

2) even if the Catalyst is right, it is none of reapers' business, they are not gods, they didn't make the galaxy, what gives them the right to interfere???

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 juin 2012 - 01:02 .

[Ieldra]

@Helios:

About Control:
The thing is I detach the goals from the methods. TIM says "It it better to dominate than to destroy". Well, most factions, countries etc. who've ever fought a war would agree with that, and so do I. As a rule, we do not utterly destroy our enemies. That's needlessly genocidal and has no benefits. What I don't agree with is the methods TIM used to get there.

I don't know about you, but no, I did not rail against TIM for that line of thought, I railed against him for sacrificing too much, for applying to his followers what should be reserved for the enemy. Not what he'd do to the Reapers made TIM a villain - arguably, what you do to them if you choose Destroy is at least as bad - but what he did to his own. As you can say to him "Cerberus was supposed to be humanity's sword, not a dagger in our back".

I actually have no idea why people think it's ok to destroy the Reapers, but not to control them. That, too, is a line of thought alien to me. The Crucible makes it possible to get there without sacrificing humans wholesale in horrifying experiments, without betraying your species. I have absolutely no problem with the idea. From a moral angle, it's by far the least problematic choice.

About Synthesis:
As people have often explained: No, Synthesis does not destroy free will (I could go into the question if there is such a thing, but that would be beside the point). It makes *one* decision for people without asking them. Granted, it's a big one, and of course I wouldn't make such a decision for everyone sitting at a desk in times of peace. But we have no time to ask everyone, and I think I have reason to believe the results are desirable - and in my interpretation, reversible on an individual level.

What exactly the results are is open to interpretation. As long as they fit certain parameters, any interpretation is as good as any other. I would, however, draw your attention to Joker and EDI. They don't appear huskified, Collectorized or in any way not themselves. They also appear reasonably happy. Thus, I think I have reason to reject your interpretation. The Catalyst says it's a road we've already started down. That worked out extremely well for Shepard - without Miranda's bio-synthetic fusion, the galaxy would have fallen to the Reapers. Reason enough to embrace the idea, and if people can opt out after the fact the moral cost is acceptable. Not that I think many would. Things only look creepy from this side of the fence.

[Terrorize69]

Synthesis = Doing the Reapers job for them, you've spent 90hours fighting them and what they stand for, only to change your mind in the last 10mins and forget the past 2 and a half years of events.

Also morally, what gives you the right to take away everyone's individuality, background and culture. Sure you managed to get other races to work together, but do you really think they want to be like each other?

Synthesis = Galactic Civil War.

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

As written, this is mostly correct, apart from the last statement. That's why I'm using the singularity scenario that was in the leaked script. No circular logic there, but the result is the same. Did you read what I wrote in this thread? And JShepppp's thread Why the Catalyst's logic is right? You can accuse that version of not having been adequately foreshadowed, but it does make sense.

I expect better from BW. Give me an ending that makes sense, please.

I'm with you on that one. The ending shouldn't require us to draw on external sources and unpublished material in order to make sense of it.

One that takes into account what Shepard stood for.

That's a bit different. Your Shepard stood for different things than my Shepard. Apart from having "Unbroken Resolve" (Siduri's Epilogues, title of Tali's Shepard Biography) to achieve whatever they stand for, Shepard is a bit of a blank slate. In the low-EMS variants you don't even unify the galaxy. 

BW should not pull a reaper-off switch and an ABC ending (things we were promised not to get) out of their hat in the last minutes of the game.

With you on that as well. I think the EC can deliver.

[Uncle Jo]

Aiyie wrote...

than there is no eternal conflict between synthetics and organics. Why should I change the DNA of everyone in the Galaxy without their consent andwithout knowing anything about the outcome or the process involved to solve a problem that doesn't even exists? And, the best part, isn't really solved at all, as synthetics can still be created to wipe out half-synthetics...

evidence kinda disproves this, actually.

as much as i hate to admit it, the catalyst may have been right in his logic.

1) first, the protheans were involved in a rather nasty war with a synthetic race when the reapers showed up in their cycle.

2)second, the geth and quarians.  i know, i know... but Shepard stopped that war and now everybody is working together!  well, its pretty safe to assume that Shepard is a pretty exceptional variable in the pattern.

3)also... don't forget that the geth, even though they were acting in self-defense, were about to WIPE OUT THE QUARIANS after shep took out the Reaper on Rannoch.

4)if shep hadn't been there, or even if she was and hadn't been quite to persuasive... THE GETH WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE QUARIAN RACE.

5)everybody looks at the catalysts logic from the standpoint of, "synthetics will always attack organics and wipe them out." but nobody ever remembers that it could be the other way round, "organics will always attack synthetics and force the synthetics to wipe them out in self-defense."

6)now then... that out of the way... outside of the dubious moral implications involved with synthesis, there's also the problem of how it works never being adequately explained.  i know, sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic... but having never had anything even remotely similiar to this event happen in the narrative earlier... its just too unbelievable to be acceptable.

1) The Protheans were about to win when the Reapers pointed their nose. So the argument "Synthetics will always wipe out organics" is bulls***

2) He's indeed an exceptional variable but nothing says that there won't be another one in the future. Or that the organics and synthetics won't learn to coexist pecefully. Remember Humans and Turians were enemies and now working together along with the Geth.
I also remind you that the Geth are the most pacific race in our cycle. They only attack when provoked.

3) The Geth were on Rannoch since three hundred years. The Quarians were the ones who started the war and didn't want to retreat although the Geth's firepower was overwhelming. So who's wrong?

4) See 3).

5) So you assume that the organics are basically dumb and never learn from their mistakes. Cool. Furthermore, there was an explicit order from the citadel Council to not mess with the Geth and let them alone.

6) Agreed.

There is no absolute law. "It's still better to let the culprit flee instead of punishing an innocent"

The Reapers are doing exactly the contrary.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 05 juin 2012 - 04:18 .

[DiebytheSword]

The biggest hit to the reapers logic is that they are thinking like the Salarians who made the genophage. They engineered a solution to a projected problem, they assume that a synthetic lifeform will come to the realization that it must destroy all organic life everywhere in order to survive. That has obviously never happened, or there would be no organic life. The reapers are just as wrong about their solution as the Salarians were about the Genophage, especially the second round of it.

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

My scenario is better grounded in science than any other I've seen so far. Including Bioware's. The only part I haven't touched is "how does it come about?"

As for how do I get so much out of it? Read my other thread, then you'll know. The endings require expanding to be satisfying, so I'll do that. Beats endlessly complaining any day. Defiance is better than depression. If Bioware doesn't give me a satisfying ending, then I'll go and make one from the wreck.

Your scenario is too blinded by the benifits of it and ignores the hazards and ethics of it.

[dreman9999]

Aiyie wrote...

than there is no eternal conflict between synthetics and organics. Why should I change the DNA of everyone in the Galaxy without their consent andwithout knowing anything about the outcome or the process involved to solve a problem that doesn't even exists? And, the best part, isn't really solved at all, as synthetics can still be created to wipe out half-synthetics...

evidence kinda disproves this, actually.

as much as i hate to admit it, the catalyst may have been right in his logic.

first, the protheans were involved in a rather nasty war with a synthetic race when the reapers showed up in their cycle.

second, the geth and quarians.  i know, i know... but Shepard stopped that war and now everybody is working together!  well, its pretty safe to assume that Shepard is a pretty exceptional variable in the pattern.

also... don't forget that the geth, even though they were acting in self-defense, were about to WIPE OUT THE QUARIANS after shep took out the Reaper on Rannoch.

if shep hadn't been there, or even if she was and hadn't been quite to persuasive... THE GETH WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT THE QUARIAN RACE.

everybody looks at the catalysts logic from the standpoint of, "synthetics will always attack organics and wipe them out." but nobody ever remembers that it could be the other way round, "organics will always attack synthetics and force the synthetics to wipe them out in self-defense."

now then... that out of the way... outside of the dubious moral implications involved with synthesis, there's also the problem of how it works never being adequately explained.  i know, sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic... but having never had anything even remotely similiar to this event happen in the narrative earlier... its just too unbelievable to be acceptable.

And on a counter of that Shepard just united all the races in the galexy.
You need to take note on why the conflict states to see why they state....Yhe proble is the nature of conflict in organics.

[dreman9999]

DiebytheSword wrote...

The biggest hit to the reapers logic is that they are thinking like the Salarians who made the genophage. They engineered a solution to a projected problem, they assume that a synthetic lifeform will come to the realization that it must destroy all organic life everywhere in order to survive. That has obviously never happened, or there would be no organic life. The reapers are just as wrong about their solution as the Salarians were about the Genophage, especially the second round of it.

Finally, someone get the connection of the salarians to the reapers..

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

As written, this is mostly correct, apart from the last statement. That's why I'm using the singularity scenario that was in the leaked script. No circular logic there, but the result is the same. Did you read what I wrote in this thread? And JShepppp's thread Why the Catalyst's logic is right? You can accuse that version of not having been adequately foreshadowed, but it does make sense.

You assume that a technological singularity is inevitable. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. In the links you provided it is taken for granted that it will always have a negative effect. We really do not know that. It might be positive as well. It seems you are not willing to even consider that. Maybe you should read that Wikipedia article on that subject again. Besides, you do not care. You have abandoned all empathy and seem to favor genocide of countless races using the most horrific methods.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juin 2012 - 04:40 .

[MattFini]

The endings really only work if we're to suddenly assume that the pivotal, centralized theme of MASS EFFECT on the whole was organics vs. synthetics.

It's not.

In fact, MASS EFFECT 3 can't even be bothered to sustain this theme at all, thanks to clumsy storytelling. It shows that during the Prothean Cycle, the synthetics that raged against the Protheans were reaper-controlled (although you have to bring Javik on the Geth ship to learn this).

So what of the ending? Will Synthesis prevent another Genophage? What's stopping the krogans and salarians/turians from mixing it up again? Surely the genophage was just as (if not more) prominent as any 'organics vs synthetics' theme floating around the ME trilogy. But suddenly the game's worldview is so narrow we're only concerned with the 'synthetics vs. organics' adage. So choosing synthesis might prevent another Quarian vs. Geth conflict but it says nothing of the suffering and chaos encurred by genophage.

This is the hole that ME3's ending opens up by over-writing the reapers and making them slaves to this Catalyst dope. ME was never centrally about organics vs. synthetics and yet it asks its audience to buy into this wholesale as if it were always the case.

Modifié par MattFini, 05 juin 2012 - 05:35 .

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

As written, this is mostly correct, apart from the last statement. That's why I'm using the singularity scenario that was in the leaked script. No circular logic there, but the result is the same. Did you read what I wrote in this thread? And JShepppp's thread Why the Catalyst's logic is right? You can accuse that version of not having been adequately foreshadowed, but it does make sense.

You assume that a technological singularity is inevitable. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. In the links you provided it is taken for granted that it will always have a negative effect. We really do not know that. It might be positive as well. It seems you are not willing to even consider that. Maybe you should read that Wikipedia article on that subject again.

You know, this gets really tiring - I don't know how often I have repeated this now: We are talking about a premise of a scenario in a fictional universe. In the real world, we do not know the effects. If there was a super-intelligent AI in the real world, it might know. In the ME universe, there is such a super-intelligent AI and it does claim to know. Is that really so unbelievable? We've suspended our disbelief for far crazier things in this universe. FTL, for instance. Inter-species sex. Telekinetic effects travelling in curves and with less than lightspeed. Health drain (Morinth). Need I go on?

And you'd better think about the sentence I didn't quote from your post again. If you can't see that this is a totally ridiculous claim and a personal insult at the same time then I've assessed you wrongly. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juin 2012 - 05:51 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Thanks about Javik's info, MattFini. Cool. Going to try this soon.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Still, the above does not take the most important aspect into account: The 3 options are solutions for a non-existing problem. That hypothetical problem used circular logic. Besides, if synthetics were a problem the last two cycles dealt with it effectively.

As written, this is mostly correct, apart from the last statement. That's why I'm using the singularity scenario that was in the leaked script. No circular logic there, but the result is the same. Did you read what I wrote in this thread? And JShepppp's thread Why the Catalyst's logic is right? You can accuse that version of not having been adequately foreshadowed, but it does make sense.

You assume that a technological singularity is inevitable. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. In the links you provided it is taken for granted that it will always have a negative effect. We really do not know that. It might be positive as well. It seems you are not willing to even consider that. Maybe you should read that Wikipedia article on that subject again.

You know, this gets really tiring - I don't know how often I have repeated this now: We are talking about a premise of a scenario in a fictional universe. In the real world, we do not know the effects. If there was a super-intelligent AI in the real world, it might know. In the ME unvierse, there is such a super-intelligent AI and it does claim to know. Is that really so unbelievable? We've suspended our disbelief for far crazier things in this universe.

You can be tired as much as you want. In a fictional universe genocide in the most horrific way is just that. Even in Shepard's universe there is no trace of evidence for the reapers' assumptions. None.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juin 2012 - 05:50 .

[Ieldra]

Synthesis does not kill anyone. Even less in a horrific way. That claim is ridiculous and telling me I don't care is insulting. I'm done with you.

I thought we could have a discussion about this. I really thought that was possible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Synthesis does not kill anyone. Even less in a horrific way.

To me extermination and "ascention through destruction" are genocide, because the races cease to exist in one way or another, by force and in the most horrific way imaginable.