685 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

Dendio1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

There are always things that are wrong.

Rape is always wrong.

Murder is always wrong.

YES?

Usually wrong, but one can find themselves in situations where he has to make moral sacrifices for the greater goal.

Grey and grey morality for shepard making ever mounting sacrfices in his crusade against the reapers
Blue and Orange for catalyst who's reasoning is beyond our comprehension (lore wise)

So, you can see justifying rape for the greater good?

Ummm, just no.

[Taboo]

I don't mind your version of Synthesis Ieldra but I care very much about the implementation. That, more than anything bothers me the most.

I DO take issue with the people who believe it removes diversity, as I threw a GREAT deal of pies yesterday at someone who did.

NO. NO. NO.

[Ieldra]

Pelle6666 wrote...
If it needs this much if an explanation it's not good.

I agree with you on that. My elaboration was an attempt to save something worthwhile from the wreck of an ending we got.

[Joe Del Toro]

I love having Taboo in a discussion. It's like having an offended jester running around the place.

[Taboo]

Let me tell you a story.

I had a psychiatrist I saw for at least ten years. He disappeared one day. All I got was a letter from the Clinic.

Turns out he was in the possession of child pornography. Regardless of how much I enjoyed being his patient he was still VERY WRONG.

You cannot justify all things.

It hurts me to even think about it, but things are ONLY black and white until they involve YOU.

[Joe Del Toro]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...
If it needs this much if an explanation it's not good.

I agree with you on that. My elaboration was an attempt to save something worthwhile from the wreck of an ending we got.

I understand that. But I'm afraid that would still be an endeavour towards justifying a mass-violation of people's rights. I honestly see Synthesis as a lose-lose no matter what.

[IndridColdx]

This thread is actually quite fun to read. Rational discussion + Taboo-XX as the comic relief. I could sit here all day.

[Taboo]

When a mother kills an intruder because he is going to harm her children she is justified. She is being a mother and protecting her children.

A mother who "saves" her children by drowning them in the bathtub is not the same. That's murder.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 05 juin 2012 - 07:03 .

[darkchief10]

IndridColdx wrote...

This thread is actually quite fun to read. Rational discussion + Taboo-XX as the comic relief. I could sit here all day.

^this

[IndridColdx]

Taboo-XX wrote...

When a mother kills an intruder because he is going to harm her children she is justified. She is being a mother and protecting her children.

A mother who "saves" her children by drowning them in the bathtub is not the same. That's murder.

What about a father who kills a man the brutally raped and killed his child after the fact?  Justified or not?

Modifié par IndridColdx, 05 juin 2012 - 07:06 .

[frylock23]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't mind your version of Synthesis Ieldra but I care very much about the implementation. That, more than anything bothers me the most.

I DO take issue with the people who believe it removes diversity, as I threw a GREAT deal of pies yesterday at someone who did.

NO. NO. NO.

The extent to which it could remove diversity depends on the extent to which it actually tampers with DNA.

1. If "Shepard's Essence" means actually disseminating Shep's DNA into the entire framework, then that would remove a certain amount of diversity by injecting a certain amount of similarity into everything in the galaxy.

2. If synthesis actually does carry through on the implications of the Adam/Eve reference of Joker and EDI, it means that they can breed and presumably have viable offspring. That means that higher species are all genetically viable partners. If so, that could mean that they're like dogs. Dogs carry a great amount of potential genetic variability, but the only reason that expresses if because we humans essentially force it through selective breeding. Leave dogs alone to breed in feral conditions and they pretty much all start looking alike and expressing the same traits after a few generations.

But since we don't actually know for sure what synthesis does, those are only implications.

[Joe Del Toro]

Getting a...bit dark in here all of a sudden.

[Taboo]

IndridColdx wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

When a mother kills an intruder because he is going to harm her children she is justified. She is being a mother and protecting her children.

A mother who "saves" her children by drowning them in the bathtub is not the same. That's murder.

What about a father who kills a man the brutally raped and killed his child?  Justified or not?

No, because he actively sought him out and killed him.

War is the same way. The only reason I find the US intervention in WWII justifiable was because they saved MANY innocent lives.

But dropping the atom bomb? **** no.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 05 juin 2012 - 07:07 .

[Motherlander]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for hybridization: Is Shepard human enough for you? Because that's what this is about. Shepard's is a human re-created through bio-synthetic fusion, that's why it must be Shepard who jumps into the beam. The glowing eyes are a cosmetic effect.

This is an interesting point.

The truth is that synthesis has already started in in the galaxy at some levels. I am sure many will not agree with me in what I am trying to say. This is my own opinion and other will probably not share it.

To me, Shepard in ME2 and ME3 is effectively synthetic. He/she is effectively built by the Lazarus project in ME2. Shepard Mark 2 is not born/hatched/seeded like a normal organic. Shepard's consciouness is effectively transferred to a new body, whih in fact could look different and have different abilities (although I accept that since this also happen at the start of ME3, thislast point can be refuted as a gaming device).

Shepard's new body is effectively designed. it is just that Cerberus chose to retain Shepard'sconsciosness.

I also think that Miranda is effectively synthetic as she is designed.

Apart from that, many of the upgrades relate to Cybernetics which are of course sythetic. So many organics have synthetic elements in them.

Modifications were made to the Geth which may make them less synethetic

EDI tries to give herself organic attributes. Giving herself a human body andtrying to learn about human emotions. She is effectively like Data in Star Trek.

So in a limited sense, on the logic above, synthesis was alread happening in the ME universe.

[Ieldra]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...
If it needs this much if an explanation it's not good.

I agree with you on that. My elaboration was an attempt to save something worthwhile from the wreck of an ending we got.

I understand that. But I'm afraid that would still be an endeavour towards justifying a mass-violation of people's rights. I honestly see Synthesis as a lose-lose no matter what.

OK. It's like giving everyone an injection against their will which will make certain antibodies grow. If the stakes are high enough, such measures are justified in my eyes. And the stakes don't get much higher than here. I understand if people are more comfortable with Control though.

[Joe Del Toro]

You know what makes even more sense right about now?

Absinthesis.

[MattFini]

Even Shepard seems somewhat appalled by the prospect of synthesis, which makes me laugh each time I hear it.

[Taboo]

Cosmetic?

I'm fairly certain I have blue eyes because of my genes. Also, they are blue because of a MUTATION.

And what of the GLOWING GREEN DERMIS?

I'm fairly certain glowing green flesh wouldn't be entirely cosmetic.

Does this mean Miranda no longer has to put on make up because she has a new, LOVELY green complexion to her face?

[Dendio1]

frylock23 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

There are always things that are wrong.

Rape is always wrong.

Murder is always wrong.

YES?

Usually wrong, but one can find themselves in situations where he has to make moral sacrifices for the greater goal.

Grey and grey morality for shepard making ever mounting sacrfices in his crusade against the reapers
Blue and Orange for catalyst who's reasoning is beyond our comprehension (lore wise)

So, you can see justifying rape for the greater good?

Ummm, just no.

I consider allowing project overlord, converting the geth heretics, and the synthesis ending all being forms of rape mentally or otherwise.

I don't like justifying rape, its a horrible thing. However Taboo asked for a concrete answer. I guess I can ammend my response by saying its always wrong, but possibly necessary given the circumstances. I remain respectful of those who would happily accept death and defeat before making such terrible moral sacrifices. In my eyes however, the ends sometimes justify the means. For the record I removed the kid from project overlord, but converted the heretics and ended up choosing synthesis.

[Joe Del Toro]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...
If it needs this much if an explanation it's not good.

I agree with you on that. My elaboration was an attempt to save something worthwhile from the wreck of an ending we got.

I understand that. But I'm afraid that would still be an endeavour towards justifying a mass-violation of people's rights. I honestly see Synthesis as a lose-lose no matter what.

OK. It's like giving everyone an injection against their will which will make certain antibodies grow. If the stakes are high enough, such measures are justified in my eyes. And the stakes don't get much higher than here. I understand if people are more comfortable with Control though.

Not to be pedantic, but in your scenario with injections, does this include shooting the needles into unsuspecting people from a distance with no prior warning?

[frylock23]

IndridColdx wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

When a mother kills an intruder because he is going to harm her children she is justified. She is being a mother and protecting her children.

A mother who "saves" her children by drowning them in the bathtub is not the same. That's murder.

What about a father who kills a man the brutally raped and killed his child after the fact?  Justified or not?

The law says no, but I have a hard time saying he's not.

In a country of laws, he needs to work through the system because the system should do what you're telling me he did. A heinous crime will or should receive the death penalty.

[Taboo]

If you actively plot out and kill someone it's murder.

Pre-meditated as well.

It doesn't who is doing what to who.

As VILE as this man may be he still has rights.

[Ieldra]

Motherlander wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for hybridization: Is Shepard human enough for you? Because that's what this is about. Shepard's is a human re-created through bio-synthetic fusion, that's why it must be Shepard who jumps into the beam. The glowing eyes are a cosmetic effect.

This is an interesting point.

The truth is that synthesis has already started in in the galaxy at some levels. I am sure many will not agree with me in what I am trying to say. This is my own opinion and other will probably not share it.

To me, Shepard in ME2 and ME3 is effectively synthetic. He/she is effectively built by the Lazarus project in ME2. Shepard Mark 2 is not born/hatched/seeded like a normal organic. Shepard's consciouness is effectively transferred to a new body, whih in fact could look different and have different abilities (although I accept that since this also happen at the start of ME3, thislast point can be refuted as a gaming device).

Shepard's new body is effectively designed. it is just that Cerberus chose to retain Shepard'sconsciosness.

I also think that Miranda is effectively synthetic as she is designed.

Apart from that, many of the upgrades relate to Cybernetics which are of course sythetic. So many organics have synthetic elements in them.

Modifications were made to the Geth which may make them less synethetic

EDI tries to give herself organic attributes. Giving herself a human body andtrying to learn about human emotions. She is effectively like Data in Star Trek.

So in a limited sense, on the logic above, synthesis was alread happening in the ME universe.

That's an interesting take on things. Your point about Shepard is worth thinking about. I've always wondered how they recreated his body. Organ cloning?
Not Miranda, though. Her genetic pattern may have been created from scratch, but she was grown like a normal human. May have even had a surrogate mother instead of an artificial uterus.

@Joe:
Does that make a difference?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juin 2012 - 07:15 .

[IndridColdx]

Taboo-XX wrote...

IndridColdx wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

When a mother kills an intruder because he is going to harm her children she is justified. She is being a mother and protecting her children.

A mother who "saves" her children by drowning them in the bathtub is not the same. That's murder.

What about a father who kills a man the brutally raped and killed his child?  Justified or not?

No, because he actively sought him out and killed him.

War is the same way. The only reason I find the US intervention in WWII justifiable was because they saved MANY innocent lives.

But dropping the atom bomb? **** no.

It was necessary lol

[Taboo]

They used stem cells. Regeneration of cells.

Shepard is alive because someone in the future decided that stem cells were not an abomination before the lord.