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[Ieldra]

LelianaHawke wrote...

The problem is lack of resolution. With both Paragon and Renegade, nothing is resolved. You still have the issue of an impending destruction via synthetic uprising. They merely suspend the inevitable. In Control, you yourself, controlling the Reapers, will have to one day figure out a solution to the problem, the chaos. In Destroy, chaos remains, and life will eventually succumb to synthetics. This is a pretty prevalent idea in sci-fi and AI theory, and I think that's sort of what Bioware was borrowing against. So I pretty much accept the "synthetics destroy advanced life before it has a chance to destroy all life" explanation at face value. I don't take the Geth and Quarians getting along, and EDI helping your cause, as being an argument against this inevitable conclusion. I view it as hope and optimism--right now, it's not a threat. In the future, it will be, especially when synthetics far surpass organics.

Mass Effect basically destroys that theory.

The actual sci-fi theory of tech singularity states that once AI achieves sentinence, it will rapidly progress at an unimaginable rate, due to the ability to keep upgrading.

That's where the actual threat comes from. But Mass Effect's synthetics progress at a snail's pace. In all the time that Geth and EDI have been active, they've only managed some minor upgrades.

Because Mass Effect AI is ultra slow, organics have a fighting chance to respond.

I also disagree that it's prevalent in 'AI theory'. While popular, it is still heavily debated and disagreed with. A vast number of AI scientists disagree with the notion of singularity.

The thing about the geth is not quite true. They're aiming at a singularity by building their superstructure. Legion even says it without using the term - the geth's intelligence will skyrocket when they're all together in their Dyson swarm. 

Also yes, AI scientists disagree about the singularity and its effects, but the extinction scenario is actually on the table. I find it acceptable to use it as a premise in an SF story. Except that ME3 didn't do that but rephrased the original text from the leaked script (which referenced the singularity) with something that didn't make sense anymore and left us to search for the lost meaning.

[Taboo]

Is there anyway we can measure the possibility? I'd like Bioware to give me a number.

We'd have to compare it against the infinite though, which I don't think you're supposed to do.

The Catalyst has stated that we have evolved past his ability to predict. I would assume that means he's no longer really reliable.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
The Catalyst has stated that we have evolved past his ability to predict. I would assume that means he's no longer really reliable.

Has it stated that? I don't think so. Or are you taking that from "my solution won't work anymore"?

[NoUserNameHere]

It's important to note that the Quarians bombed that Geth superstructure to oblivion with little effort. SUCH an existential threat, here.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
The Catalyst has stated that we have evolved past his ability to predict. I would assume that means he's no longer really reliable.

Has it stated that? I don't think so. Or are you taking that from "my solution won't work anymore"?

I think I'm misremembering. I would assume that the introduction of a variable, Shepard in our case has really messed up his...thought process.

He bets against the infinite in his scenario. Just because it can, doesn't mean it will. I fully accept the singularity as a possibility but I need more information about statistics.

He may be a very powerful AI, but just as you say that his claims about DNA are metaphorical, I would think he should be able to give me an educatd guess right?

I won't enact Synthesis to solve an issue he is really simply touting opinions about. He needs more dialouge.

I apologize for my earlier...vitriol, it was feed by some...unsavory people taking about what there version of Synthesis was. I don't mind yours, but I just want more information.

[The Night Mammoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The thing about the geth is not quite true. They're aiming at a singularity by building their superstructure. Legion even says it without using the term - the geth's intelligence will skyrocket when they're all together in their Dyson swarm.

Due to the nature of the Geth at that point, their possible form of 'superintelligence' will be nothing like we've ever seen. 

And I use the word possible with good reason, because it's all speculation. They may never achieve a singularity. 

Also yes, AI scientists disagree about the singularity and its effects, but the extinction scenario is actually on the table.

There are multiple scenarios that involve our extinction, or the extinction of life on Earth, or possible life in the galaxy, but there are far more that postulate something completely different, and positive to the human race. 

In fact, it's agreed by most scientists related to the field that it will only benefit our species. 

Of course, it's all complete conjecture, the extinction scenarios more than the rest. They're so far flung I have trouble researching them. 

I find it acceptable to use it as a premise in an SF story.

Of course, so long as it makes sense and is supported. ME3's finale's moronic take on the nature of synthetic life is not supported, and makes no sense at all. 

Except that ME3 didn't do that but rephrased the original text from the leaked script (which referenced the singularity) with something that didn't make sense anymore and left us to search for the lost meaning.

It didn't make sense in the leaked script. Actually, it's even worse because it makes BioWare look like fools who had visibly run out of ideas. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 juin 2012 - 09:27 .

[LelianaHawke]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The thing about the geth is not quite true. They're aiming at a singularity by building their superstructure. Legion even says it without using the term - the geth's intelligence will skyrocket when they're all together in their Dyson swarm. 

Also yes, AI scientists disagree about the singularity and its effects, but the extinction scenario is actually on the table. I find it acceptable to use it as a premise in an SF story. Except that ME3 didn't do that but rephrased the original text from the leaked script (which referenced the singularity) with something that didn't make sense anymore and left us to search for the lost meaning.

Oh, I do think it's perfectly acceptable as a premise. I just think that ME has shown that it's possible it won't occur. Hence I take issue with the majority of synthesis arguments, which accept that occurance as an immutable prediction.

In every ending you're basically gambling. Shepard even says when talking to Vega that no one can predict the future. Playing Shepard true to her words, to me, means not putting much stock into the future.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 05 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[frylock23]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The thing about the geth is not quite true. They're aiming at a singularity by building their superstructure. Legion even says it without using the term - the geth's intelligence will skyrocket when they're all together in their Dyson swarm.

Due to the nature of the Geth at that point, their possible form of 'superintelligence' will be nothing like we've ever seen. 

And I use the word possible with good reason, because it's all speculation. They may never achieve a singularity. 

Also yes, AI scientists disagree about the singularity and its effects, but the extinction scenario is actually on the table.

There are multiple scenarios that involve our extinction, or the extinction of life on Earth, or possible life in the galaxy, but there are far more that postulate something completely different, and positive to the human race. 

In fact, it's agreed by most scientists related to the field that it will only benefit our species. 

Of course, it's all complete conjecture, the extinction scenarios more than the rest. They're so far flung I have trouble researching them. 

I find it acceptable to use it as a premise in an SF story.

Of course, so long as it makes sense and is supported. ME3's finale's moronic take on the nature of synthetic life is not supported, and makes no sense at all. 

Except that ME3 didn't do that but rephrased the original text from the leaked script (which referenced the singularity) with something that didn't make sense anymore and left us to search for the lost meaning.

It didn't make sense in the leaked script. Actually, it's even worse because it makes BioWare look like fools who had visibly run out of ideas. 

And of course, none of those possible theories matter because the current hot one is that we all die ... somehow ... on Dec. 12, 2012. So, does any of this really matter?

The thing is that without some actual numbers on the probability of it all, we're asked to pretty much violate everyone and everything in the known universe against a random chance that something bad MIGHT happen to wipe us all out. Well, so what? We always live under that chance.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
The Catalyst has stated that we have evolved past his ability to predict. I would assume that means he's no longer really reliable.

Has it stated that? I don't think so. Or are you taking that from "my solution won't work anymore"?

I think I'm misremembering. I would assume that the introduction of a variable, Shepard in our case has really messed up his...thought process.

He bets against the infinite in his scenario. Just because it can, doesn't mean it will. I fully accept the singularity as a possibility but I need more information about statistics.

He may be a very powerful AI, but just as you say that his claims about DNA are metaphorical, I would think he should be able to give me an educatd guess right?

I won't enact Synthesis to solve an issue he is really simply touting opinions about. He needs more dialouge.

I apologize for my earlier...vitriol, it was feed by some...unsavory people taking about what there version of Synthesis was. I don't mind yours, but I just want more information.

I think we can agree on that. We need more exposition. I'm fine with writing up most consequences myself. I'm a worldbuilder, and if I didn't find that interesting I wouldn't have spent half a day writing up the OP of that other thread,  but there must be a solid foundation for the decision and a general idea about the effects. 

And it would help if the writers actually did the damned research before they finalized their plot. We aren't in a comic book universe, Mr Walters, and your habit of playing fast and loose with science themes backfired in an epic way. I only hope it had a learning effect.

[JShepppp]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
The Catalyst has stated that we have evolved past his ability to predict. I would assume that means he's no longer really reliable.

Has it stated that? I don't think so. Or are you taking that from "my solution won't work anymore"?

I think I'm misremembering. I would assume that the introduction of a variable, Shepard in our case has really messed up his...thought process.

He bets against the infinite in his scenario. Just because it can, doesn't mean it will. I fully accept the singularity as a possibility but I need more information about statistics.

He may be a very powerful AI, but just as you say that his claims about DNA are metaphorical, I would think he should be able to give me an educatd guess right?

I won't enact Synthesis to solve an issue he is really simply touting opinions about. He needs more dialouge.

I apologize for my earlier...vitriol, it was feed by some...unsavory people taking about what there version of Synthesis was. I don't mind yours, but I just want more information.

I think we can agree on that. We need more exposition. I'm fine with writing up most consequences myself. I'm a worldbuilder, and if I didn't find that interesting I wouldn't have spent half a day writing up the OP of that other thread,  but there must be a solid foundation for the decision and a general idea about the effects. 

And it would help if the writers actually did the damned research before they finalized their plot. We aren't in a comic book universe, Mr Walters, and your habit of playing fast and loose with science themes backfired in an epic way. I only hope it had a learning effect.

I've always thought the synthesis ending was more symbolic than anything, and I agree that the use of the Crucible being super-advanced technology (I think of the Kardashev Scale - current organics = level 1, reapers/catalyst = level 2, crucible = level 3) to create "space magic" is a little weak and unexpected. Forgot the person who said it (famous guy, just can't remember now - I think Clarke?) but it was like any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. For a series that has always given us pretty solid explanations about in-universe science, relying on space magic happening merely by consequence of super advanced technology feels a little weak.

I wish we had more answers for everything in-game.Speculation is fun, but only to a certain degree, I suppose lol.

[iHorizons]

Synthesis is complete garbage, its Space Magic and makes no sense