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[Jenonax]

Ieldra2 wrote...


@Jenoxas:
Sorry that you became the target for my rant. I might have misunderstood.

Ah don't worry about it, I don't put myself across very clearly sometimes.

Just as an aside point for a previous post of yours about the Crucible.

Its an assumption yes, but not altogether baseless as it being of Reaper origin is one of the only things that could explain its presence.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Actions speak louder than words; fly in and start shooting Heretics. The Heretics are their responsibility - any atrocity they commit against the organics only makes the Geth's dream of coexistence more impossible. Doing nothing about the problem is flatly unacceptable.

Therefore, Cerberus is humanity's responsibility. Why wasn't the Alliance shooting down Cerberus ships and taking their bases the moment they started hostile actions against other races?

Sure, they operated against them behind the scenes.. but then, so did Legion.
Hell, Legion gave money to Eden Prime. Did the Alliance compensate Cerberus' victims?

Your analogy makes no sense. Organics comprise multiple races of countless variation; the Geth are one synthetic race. And the reason I can judge the Geth by the actions of the Heretics is because Legion tells me I can. "Neither result is an error."

Accepting Sovereign's help is not an error. That is the only difference between the two factions, anything else is subject to Sovereign's control.

The Heretics are not indoctrinated - you can't indoctrinate synthetics. They chose to follow the Reapers, chose to wage war on organics. It makes all the difference in the world.

Yes. ME3 didn't show us that the Reapers can directly hack synthetics and force them to do whatever they want.

Pure organic life, sure. Why is that so desirable? If hybrids have all the empathy and emotion of organics, plus a host of advantages normally reserved for synthetics, then what else do we really need?

How about self-determination? How about the fact that whatever benefits are gained, the fact remains that a form of life has been entirely exterminated?

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 juin 2012 - 02:18 .

[Kushan101]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis only works in universe if you assume that the Catalyst is basically lying about the synthetics and the real motivation behind the cycle is in fact synthesis itself, i.e. turning organics into Reapers.
Synthesis does this on a larger scale permanently. Thus it ends the cycle.

It would be like turning the entire population of Earth into the **** ideal of Aryans. You haven't solved any potential conflict, but to the ignorant racists who believe this, everything is fixed.

And no, it's not Godwin's Law if the analogy is relevant.

The Angry One, you always impress me with the posts you make, this was no exception.

Yet it wont solve the problem in a logical sense either, all morals aside, whats to say the future "hybrid" race(s) wont create pure synthetics? thus beginning the (supposed) "problem" again?

[Theodoro]

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Oh I've heard the racist argument before.  Making all the different races in the galaxy equal to each other.

I'm sure African Americans would be outraged by that thought.

Not equal. They already are equal. The same.
Do you think they'd be happy with that? All mushed together into one race, everything homogenised? Are you serious?

What Synthesis brings is uniformity. What Shepard inspired in species across the galaxy is unity despite differences. Bringing different people with various cultures, opinions, aspirations, hopes for the future and history, to work together for a common cause. That's the real beauty of it, and Synthesis takes it away.

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Oh I've heard the racist argument before.  Making all the different races in the galaxy equal to each other.

I'm sure African Americans would be outraged by that thought.

Not equal. They already are equal. The same.
Do you think they'd be happy with that? All mushed together into one race, everything homogenised? Are you serious?

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juin 2012 - 02:18 .

[legion999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that the Geth always wanted peace and cooperation, Reaper code or not.

Yet the Heretics didn't - and apparently the only difference between them is .00001.

Various groups today don't want peace and co-operation. What's so different about them?

[PsyrenY]

Mims wrote...
I do enjoy reading what people write on it though. It seems like the people most satisfied with the endings tend to like synthesis.

I wonder if there really is a correlation there. It seems that way.

The Angry One wrote...

If you endorse synthesis, you may not be racist, but you are being naive about what it is and what it does, and are trying to headcanon your way out of it's truly despicable nature.

It's the other way around actually - You headcanoned your way into a despicable nature. If Bioware had intended Synthesis to be negative, they would have presented it that way.

[kookie28]

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Oh I've heard the racist argument before.  Making all the different races in the galaxy equal to each other.

I'm sure African Americans would be outraged by that thought.

Not equal. They already are equal. The same.
Do you think they'd be happy with that? All mushed together into one race, everything homogenised? Are you serious?

Humans are still human shaped.  You can assume that the same goes for every race.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

For god's sake. I'm talking about organics vs. synthetics. I'm using human ethnicities as an analogy.
Regardless of the organic races still being different (although now they have the "same DNA" so huh?) the fact remains, organics and synthetics have now been made the same, because the Catalyst is a racist who thinks organics and synthetics cannot co-exist because they're different.

[PsyrenY]

legion999 wrote...

Various groups today don't want peace and co-operation. What's so different about them?

None of those groups have the potential of achieving a tech singularity. Heretics do.
And should they do so, we would be as helpless against them as ants fighting a forest fire.

[kookie28]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you endorse synthesis, you may not be racist, but you are being naive about what it is and what it does, and are trying to headcanon your way out of it's truly despicable nature.

It's the other way around actually - You headcanoned your way into a despicable nature. If Bioware had intended Synthesis to be negative, they would have presented it that way.

Is that . . . irony?

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

It's the other way around actually - You headcanoned your way into a despicable nature. If Bioware had intended Synthesis to be negative, they would have presented it that way.

FACT: Synthesis alters all beings in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent.

FACT: Synthetics can cooperate and exist with organics without such intervention, making the Catalyst's assertions racist in nature.

I'm not headcanoning a damn thing. You people are the ones doing so, claiming synthesis is so beneficial that it'll upgrade everyone! ... while Joker is still limping.

[111987]

Control is the superior choice to synthesis for many reasons, but in the OP you make the assumption that the destruction of organic life by synthetics is inevitable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

In Destroy, you are taking a risk that the singularity will not occur. In Synthesis, you believe in the singularity and thus fundamentally alter the nature of the galaxy to prevent the conflict. However who knows what new conflicts will arise from this, or if synthesis even is the perfect solution for the singularity.

In Control though, you get to gauge the situation before making a rash decision. In Control you can rebuild all the Relays and restore society to what it used to be. You can use the Reapers to maintain the peace (such as when exploring new, potentially hostile Relays), or just send them away until they are needed. Then if it turns out the singularity truly is a threat, use the Crucible plans that you now have access to to unleash synthesis, if that truly is the only way to stop the extinction of organic life.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

For god's sake. I'm talking about organics vs. synthetics. I'm using human ethnicities as an analogy.
Regardless of the organic races still being different (although now they have the "same DNA" so huh?) the fact remains, organics and synthetics have now been made the same, because the Catalyst is a racist who thinks organics and synthetics cannot co-exist because they're different.

Organic-synthetic is only one axis of diversity/differentiation. There are still many others.

[legion999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Various groups today don't want peace and co-operation. What's so different about them?

None of those groups have the potential of achieving a tech singularity. Heretics do.
And should they do so, we would be as helpless against them as ants fighting a forest fire.

Are you joking? You're serious about your first sentence? Good lord.

[Shallyah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Oh I've heard the racist argument before.  Making all the different races in the galaxy equal to each other.

I'm sure African Americans would be outraged by that thought.

Not equal. They already are equal. The same.
Do you think they'd be happy with that? All mushed together into one race, everything homogenised? Are you serious?

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

Are you for real?

Do you realize that even in the current real world there are people of a race or belieft that would rather die than getting a simple bood transfussion from an stranger?

Who are you to force your DNA into them? Who are you to turn them into half-machines? Really, I'd find much less offense in being killed than in being forcefully raped at genetic level. What makes you believe you can go there with your big ego and think that everyone should live with your DNA in their genes for the rest of eternity when there are other choices available? Have you asked every person you're going to DNA rape if they rather die a human/asari/turian/anything?

At this point I'm convinced you don't really get it at all, and that's why you either don't see any wrong in it, or choose to ignore it, so it's pretty pointless anyway.

Modifié par Shallyah, 02 juin 2012 - 02:24 .

[kookie28]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

For god's sake. I'm talking about organics vs. synthetics. I'm using human ethnicities as an analogy.
Regardless of the organic races still being different (although now they have the "same DNA" so huh?) the fact remains, organics and synthetics have now been made the same, because the Catalyst is a racist who thinks organics and synthetics cannot co-exist because they're different.

Nobody said everything will have the same DNA.  A "new" one maybe.

All life uses some kind of DNA, but it isn't all exactly the same like you make it out to be.

[Jenonax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Oh I've heard the racist argument before.  Making all the different races in the galaxy equal to each other.

I'm sure African Americans would be outraged by that thought.

Not equal. They already are equal. The same.
Do you think they'd be happy with that? All mushed together into one race, everything homogenised? Are you serious?

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

As much as I hate synthesis, I have to agree.  This is not one of the problems.  That new DNA line?  Bull****, throw it out.  Walters should be ashamed if he thinks thats how Biology works.  

Am I right in thinking Ieldra that your theory on synthesis states that rather than homogenizing everything as the new DNA suggests, synthesis actually would be more like receiving augmentations?  

Though I don't agree with the whole lack of consent thing and can't perceive how on earth that green energy wave made us all suddenly grow machine parts I will concede that synthesis makes much more sense if we go down the augmentation route rather than the utterly ludicrous new DNA route.  

Do I like it?  No.  But I can get my head round it in this form.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Nobody, not even Ieldra2, has yet provided a remotely plausible explanation of how Synthesis works and achieves its stated goal of forever ending war between synthetic and organic species (because of that division).

War was never the problem. Casual extinction because of disregard was. Synthesis removes the intrinsic power imbalance between organics and synthetics, or at least reduces it to a manageable level. So yes, I have provided a rationale as for why Synthesis is a solution and its technological base. What I haven't done, and don't think I need to do, is provided an explanation of the process.

U cannot dismiss war like that, as it results from the esculation of this power imbalance, that being said, power imbalance should be removed on a voluntary basis, like joint-agreement of destruction of nuclear weapons, demilitarisation, and peace shouldn't be the by-product of people sharing physical or mental attributes

In an ideal world, yes. The Catalyst claims that there are power imbalances - namely between organics and post-singularity synthetics - that can't be dealt with that way.

Well then I will have to argue that singularity could not be achieved, if organics can't get that smart neither can synthetics, as synthetics were created by organics, organics and synthetics all have pros and cons in terms of physicality and psychology, if organics can be wiped out so easily, then I guess this is just part of evolution that is inevitable

[Theodoro]

kookie28 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

For god's sake. I'm talking about organics vs. synthetics. I'm using human ethnicities as an analogy.
Regardless of the organic races still being different (although now they have the "same DNA" so huh?) the fact remains, organics and synthetics have now been made the same, because the Catalyst is a racist who thinks organics and synthetics cannot co-exist because they're different.

Nobody said everything will have the same DNA.  A "new" one maybe.

All life uses some kind of DNA, but it isn't all exactly the same like you make it out to be.

Catalyst: The chain reaction will combine all organic and synthetic life into a new framework... a new DNA.

You were saying?

Modifié par Theodoro, 02 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

FACT: Synthesis alters all beings in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent.

FACT: Synthetics can cooperate and exist with organics without such intervention, making the Catalyst's assertions racist in nature.

I'm not headcanoning a damn thing. You people are the ones doing so, claiming synthesis is so beneficial that it'll upgrade everyone! ... while Joker is still limping.

The possibility of lazy animation aside, our bodies are not what synthesis needs to upgrade to be a successful solution. (Though without a doubt it would eventually give us the ability to do so ourselves.) Our minds are the problem - we rely on synthetics because we can't think or adapt fast enough, or succumb to tedium and error on long or complex tasks. So Joker limping is pretty irrelevant even if it was intentional. 

[The Angry One]

kookie28 wrote...

Nobody said everything will have the same DNA.  A "new" one maybe.

Based on Shepard's as the template. Where are they getting the rest of the DNA from?

All life uses some kind of DNA, but it isn't all exactly the same like you make it out to be.

Which is different. Like the Turians and Quarians that's, you know, so incompatible with ours that eating our food kills them.
We can file this one under space magic.

[PsyrenY]

legion999 wrote...

Are you joking? You're serious about your first sentence? Good lord.

Do you know one today that can achieve it? Enlighten me.
Everyone arguing against a TS is eventually reduced to sputtering. ("Are you serious?? *end post*") Yes I'm obviously serious, I'm not posting here just to give my keyboard a workout.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 02 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The possibility of lazy animation aside, our bodies are not what synthesis needs to upgrade to be a successful solution. (Though without a doubt it would eventually give us the ability to do so ourselves.) Our minds are the problem - we rely on synthetics because we can't think or adapt fast enough, or succumb to tedium and error on long or complex tasks. So Joker limping is pretty irrelevant even if it was intentional. 

So, headcanon.

Now that's good irony.

[KDD-0063]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Angry One:
None of the choices take anyone's opinion into account. The only real argument you and your faction have is to yell "Don't believe the Catalyst" at every opportunity, because for those who do believe it, the question they'd have to ask is: "Would you rather that your descendants be killed by synthetics, live under the overlordship of an ascended human, or that you'll get synthetic symbionts that upgrade your capabilities in several ways"?

But of course, *that's* different. /sarcasm

@Jenoxas:
Sorry that you became the target for my rant. I might have misunderstood.

First, the whole point of synthesis is to avoid AI singularity.
So a little problem with the endings first: why the hell should Shepard care about this problem anyways?
Of course you could argue that the reapers force him/her to care, and solving this problem will solve the reaper threat.
However that is precisely what gives people this jarring feeling, especially when we want to blow them up in the most badass, brutal and satisfying way.