685 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...
Stop talking about upgrades as if that will convince me. Once again, I am a transhumanist. I fully believe in and endorse the benefits of cybernetic upgrades. I do not however believe that forced upgrades are justifiable by any meeans.
You simply don't have that right. Nobody does. Ever.

You can make similar statements about the other options. If you think that this overrules all other considerations then we have a fundamental disagreement. As I see it, circumstances matter, and results matter. I'm not saying I'm 100% comfortable with the choice - but it's a comparably good outcome, all things considered.

Also, in my interpretation, the change is reversible on an individual basis (see the thread I linked below the OP). That would surely mitigate the situation...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juin 2012 - 02:29 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

So, headcanon.

No, logic. If it's truly a solution to the singularity there are minimum upgrades it must give us.

[kookie28]

Theodoro wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yet again *sigh*

Synthesis does not make everyone the same. A post-Synthesis turian will still be turian, a post-Synthesis human still human etc... Just watch the Normandy scene.

The statement that Synthesis homogenizes all the species is FALSE!

For god's sake. I'm talking about organics vs. synthetics. I'm using human ethnicities as an analogy.
Regardless of the organic races still being different (although now they have the "same DNA" so huh?) the fact remains, organics and synthetics have now been made the same, because the Catalyst is a racist who thinks organics and synthetics cannot co-exist because they're different.

Nobody said everything will have the same DNA.  A "new" one maybe.

All life uses some kind of DNA, but it isn't all exactly the same like you make it out to be.

Catalyst: The chain reaction will combine all organic and synthetic life into a new framework... a new DNA.

You were saying?

Thank you for quoting the line I'm referring to.  Do you see anything about all life having the exact same DNA anywhere in that sentence?

[dreamgazer]

kookie28 wrote...

Point still stands.  Making an argument about a video game ending (Which is bad no matter what you choose) so personal that you resort to comparing the other side to genocidal figures in history, then you definitely need to see a doctor.

The situation unfortunately merits the reaction a bit.  Not the genocidal figure association, of course, but the "backed in a corner" defense of their choices. 

With the way the endings are wired, you're required to funnel both literary and personal impressions into your choice.  You're making a decision that you'd make for the existence of galaxy, and saying you choose one of the three implies where your eithical loyalties lie in terms of the three negative aspects of each.  The end has sparked more than merely a "what did you choose for the ME universe" style of debate; it's instigated an actual discussion over the repercussions, and the positive ideas of synthesis (and control) have emerged in the process---and what the player themselves would do if they were really in Shepard's shoes. 

Even though it won't dissuade me from being a staunch destroy advocate, and it won't make me overlook the unreliable parameters and ethically (more) chilling components of the other two options, it hasn't kept me from exploring and acknowledging the positive benefits of the pacificstic choices. Synthesis repulses some do to its modification; it sparks curiosity, opportunity, and forward-thinking in others. The open parameters of control allow for some pretty clever implications as well, as they're dictated by the ME universe (Here's one I thought of the other day: if distilled in the Control/Citadel framework, would Shepard eventually be able to "rediscover" their human personality, like EDI discovers hers, and funnel his/her mentality into a cybernetic body that seems surprisingly close to the Shepard we know?  The possibility has been established.)

Video game or not, and "unclear" descriptions of the options being intentional or not, it's an interesting outside-the-box discussion that does exploit the lore we know.  Books are just books and films are just films, but the topics they drudge up almost take a life of their own.  Even though people are getting angry about it, as is the case for the internet in general, there's actually a really intriguing conversation going on under the surface. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 02 juin 2012 - 02:37 .

[dreman9999]

Now use real facts and real points this time...
And Geth are still synthetics. They are not given a human brain, just a code that make them better. This like saying EDI is not synthetic because she has reaper code.

[glacier1701]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Angry One:
None of the choices take anyone's opinion into account. The only real argument you and your faction have is to yell "Don't believe the Catalyst" at every opportunity, because for those who do believe it, the question they'd have to ask is: "Would you rather that your descendants be killed by synthetics, live under the overlordship of an ascended human, or that you'll get synthetic symbionts that upgrade your capabilities in several ways"?

But of course, *that's* different. /sarcasm

@Jenoxas:
Sorry that you became the target for my rant. I might have misunderstood.

 You are the one that is painting those who oppose you as doing so for one single reason. I certainly DO NOT regard the arguement you say is being used to oppose Synthesis as being the primary one. Your arguement is that life even if it means slavery forever is the best option. Our own human history shows that many do NOT think that way. They would rather be free to choose their own path even if it does mean death in the short or long term. Synthesis works ONLY if the freedom to choose is given up forever and that is in essence the whole reason behind the Reapers/Catalyst. While that may work for you the whole point of the ME series was the fight to ensure that people had the freedom to choose. Death is preferable. Mordin states it best when he comments on the Collectors  - see here. Synthesis ignores this because it many ways it turns everyone into Collectors.

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So, headcanon.

No, logic. If it's truly a solution to the singularity there are minimum upgrades it must give us.

What logic...He just made a bunch of assomtion with nothing to support it.

[legion999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Are you joking? You're serious about your first sentence? Good lord.

Do you know one today that can achieve it? Enlighten me.

How about the whole planet? We're advancing rather quickly who knows where we'll be within 50 or 100 years time. Hell you don't even need a singularity to be considered dangerous when there's so many weapons of mass destruction.

And it seems you've misinterpreted my first post. You stated there was little difference between the Heretics and 'normal' Geth. I meant that there's very little difference between human groups.

Modifié par legion999, 02 juin 2012 - 02:38 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You can make similar statements about the other options. If you think that this overrules all other considerations then we have a fundamental disagreement. As I see it, circumstances matter, and results matter. I'm not saying I'm 100% comfortable with the choice - but it's a comparably good outcome, all things considered.

Also, in my interpretation, the change is reversible on an individual basis (see the thread I linked below the OP). That would surely mitigate the situation...

Synthesis removes all choice from all beings in the galaxy. Everywhere. PERMANENTLY.
There's no going back. There's no opting out. Everybody is affected. You have no right to do this, period.

[kookie28]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

It's the other way around actually - You headcanoned your way into a despicable nature. If Bioware had intended Synthesis to be negative, they would have presented it that way.

FACT: Synthesis alters all beings in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent.

FACT: Synthetics can cooperate and exist with organics without such intervention, making the Catalyst's assertions racist in nature.

I'm not headcanoning a damn thing. You people are the ones doing so, claiming synthesis is so beneficial that it'll upgrade everyone! ... while Joker is still limping.

You're headcanonning that it's such a terrible thing.  Would you prefer that Shepard poll the entire galaxy on which decision to make?  Because I'm sure there would be advocates for all three options.  Some would be offended that the Geth are destroyed in Destroy.  Some could be offended that you would take control of these billion year old death machines and would argue that they should be flat out destroyed.

No matter what you choose, you're doing it without permission, and you'll make someone unhappy.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I've repeatedly said that I consider all three choices viable depending on the players' interpretation of things and personal ideology.

That is the most important thing to take away, I think. It's also probably the reason why BioWare tried to keep things as vague as possible. The execution may fail (quite spectacularly) but I believe there are enough indicators towards their intentions. Just unfortunate it takes a little digging.

In blunt terms...

- Control is for people who believe they can shape the galaxy for the best. Sacrificing themselves in the process.
- Synthesis is for people who believe that the only solution is an advanced lifeform, drastically altering everything in an instant. Sacrificing themselves to attain this is the only possible way.
- Destroy is for people who would rather the galaxy choose its own path, possibly because they outright reject the Catalyst's logic. This comes at the cost of killing at least an entire species.

All of the endings are deliberately tough choices. Each has its own penalty as a way of adding more weight to the decision. In a way you are choosing what you consider to be the lesser of...three evils. Though Synthesis may be presented as the optimal solution, you are free to reject it if you so wish. Rather than the game generating outcomes based on what transpired during your playthrough, it is down to those events to colour and influence your decision.

Even the original Dark Energy ending, seemed to suggest a lot was left open to the player's interpretation.

Anyway, basically, I'm not exactly defending the endings but I don't think it is right to attack people for their choice. I'm not sure anyone was 100% satisfied with their particular choice (especially since it's 'victory through sacrifice'), they just made the most of what they were given, as was BioWare's intention.

Makes for interesting debate over the reasons why people went with their choice though. As long as things remain civil.

Modifié par hot_heart, 02 juin 2012 - 02:39 .

[NoUserNameHere]

At the end of the day, casting aside all the plot hole, junk science, and thematic failures... We didn't fight all this way to solve the Reaper's problem. We came all this way to solve the Reaper problem.

Destroy does this. Reapers fall down.
Control does this in a less direct fashion, though the writing beforehand makes it seem boneheaded. The possibility for later failure seems high, but still...
Synthesis... Does not even pretend to bring closure to the Reapers. It only solves the 'evil robot' threat we'll never see in an Asari lifetime. For that alone we should damn the green skittles.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 02 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[Shallyah]

Yeah, no point arguing about what's best or what's worse with so little info.

End of the day, we're all dudes (or gals) sitting in front of a computer with no power to change anything. Though sometimes, when I walk away from a thread like this all I can think of is "Thank god for that". ('that' being that we have no power to change anything).

Modifié par Shallyah, 02 juin 2012 - 02:37 .

[PsyrenY]

glacier1701 wrote...

 You are the one that is painting those who oppose you as doing so for one single reason. I certainly DO NOT regard the arguement you say is being used to oppose Synthesis as being the primary one. Your arguement is that life even if it means slavery forever is the best option. Our own human history shows that many do NOT think that way. They would rather be free to choose their own path even if it does mean death in the short or long term. Synthesis works ONLY if the freedom to choose is given up forever and that is in essence the whole reason behind the Reapers/Catalyst. While that may work for you the whole point of the ME series was the fight to ensure that people had the freedom to choose. Death is preferable. Mordin states it best when he comments on the Collectors  - see here. Synthesis ignores this because it many ways it turns everyone into Collectors.

You have very odd ideas of what Synthesis does. Slavery?

[wright1978]

glacier1701 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Angry One:
None of the choices take anyone's opinion into account. The only real argument you and your faction have is to yell "Don't believe the Catalyst" at every opportunity, because for those who do believe it, the question they'd have to ask is: "Would you rather that your descendants be killed by synthetics, live under the overlordship of an ascended human, or that you'll get synthetic symbionts that upgrade your capabilities in several ways"?

But of course, *that's* different. /sarcasm

@Jenoxas:
Sorry that you became the target for my rant. I might have misunderstood.

 You are the one that is painting those who oppose you as doing so for one single reason. I certainly DO NOT regard the arguement you say is being used to oppose Synthesis as being the primary one. Your arguement is that life even if it means slavery forever is the best option. Our own human history shows that many do NOT think that way. They would rather be free to choose their own path even if it does mean death in the short or long term. Synthesis works ONLY if the freedom to choose is given up forever and that is in essence the whole reason behind the Reapers/Catalyst. While that may work for you the whole point of the ME series was the fight to ensure that people had the freedom to choose. Death is preferable. Mordin states it best when he comments on the Collectors  - see here. Synthesis ignores this because it many ways it turns everyone into Collectors.

Yeah that's the only logical take i can see on synthesis too based on evil insane troll supporting it. A horrendous sacrifice to ensure survival.

[Jenonax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Stop talking about upgrades as if that will convince me. Once again, I am a transhumanist. I fully believe in and endorse the benefits of cybernetic upgrades. I do not however believe that forced upgrades are justifiable by any meeans.
You simply don't have that right. Nobody does. Ever.

You can make similar statements about the other options. If you think that this overrules all other considerations then we have a fundamental disagreement. As I see it, circumstances matter, and results matter. I'm not saying I'm 100% comfortable with the choice - but it's a comparably good outcome, all things considered.

Also, in my interpretation, the change is reversible on an individual basis (see the thread I linked below the OP). That would surely mitigate the situation...

If its reversible then what was the point and what does it solve?

Circumstances and results do matter, and we don't have enough data from a reliable source to justify any of the choices imo.

Synthesis is a complete unknown.  The consequences could be catastrophic or enlightening, we have no idea.

Control sounds an awful lot like what the Reapers could have been whispering into an indoctrinated TIM's mind all this time.

Destroy could very well be very reckless, a heavy handed approach to something that could be solved a lot more delicately.  Why does all synthetic life have to die, again?

[kookie28]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You can make similar statements about the other options. If you think that this overrules all other considerations then we have a fundamental disagreement. As I see it, circumstances matter, and results matter. I'm not saying I'm 100% comfortable with the choice - but it's a comparably good outcome, all things considered.

Also, in my interpretation, the change is reversible on an individual basis (see the thread I linked below the OP). That would surely mitigate the situation...

Synthesis removes all choice from all beings in the galaxy. Everywhere. PERMANENTLY.
There's no going back. There's no opting out. Everybody is affected. You have no right to do this, period.

But you have the right to remove the Geth completely?  No going back from that.

And what about becoming an immortal AI God via Control?  Some might say no one has the right to be immortal.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So, headcanon.

No, logic.

I see, when I make conclusions based on the facts presented in the game, it's headcanon.
When you make **** up, it's "logic".

If it's truly a solution to the singularity there are minimum upgrades it must give us.

Let's just ignore the dark as hell implications of altering the mind along with the body.
Even an upgrade of the kind you describe is not a solution to anything. A hybrid mind would be better than an organic, but still inferior to a synthetic. There would be no "catching up", a pure synthetic would still reach a TS and destroy everything, if you buy into Catalyst troll logic.

[The Angry One]

kookie28 wrote...

But you have the right to remove the Geth completely?  No going back from that.

And what about becoming an immortal AI God via Control?  Some might say no one has the right to be immortal.

Which part of "I think all the options are garbage" do you not understand?

[PsyrenY]

Jenonax wrote...

If its reversible then what was the point and what does it solve?

Obviously - those hybrids who keep their upgrades would be able to keep pace with synthetics. Organic life (mixed with tech) would continue.

Jenonax wrote... 
Synthesis is a complete unknown.  The consequences could be catastrophic or enlightening, we have no idea.

If Bioware intended them to be catastrophic they would have presented them as such.

[The Angry One]

kookie28 wrote...

You're headcanonning that it's such a terrible thing.  Would you prefer that Shepard poll the entire galaxy on which decision to make?  Because I'm sure there would be advocates for all three options.  Some would be offended that the Geth are destroyed in Destroy.  Some could be offended that you would take control of these billion year old death machines and would argue that they should be flat out destroyed.

No matter what you choose, you're doing it without permission, and you'll make someone unhappy.

Headcanoning that it's a terrible thing?
Is altering people without their consent not a terrible thing where you live? If so, remind me never to visit your country.

Synthesis violates everyone. EVERYONE. The organics, the Geth, everyone on every planet everywhere.

[dreamgazer]

The Angry One wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

But you have the right to remove the Geth completely?  No going back from that.

And what about becoming an immortal AI God via Control?  Some might say no one has the right to be immortal.

Which part of "I think all the options are garbage" do you not understand?

How would you feel if you found out that the catalyst "implied" his way through the destroy option, and that the geth and EDI were peachy in the aftermath?

[dreman9999]

kookie28 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

It's the other way around actually - You headcanoned your way into a despicable nature. If Bioware had intended Synthesis to be negative, they would have presented it that way.

FACT: Synthesis alters all beings in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent.

FACT: Synthetics can cooperate and exist with organics without such intervention, making the Catalyst's assertions racist in nature.

I'm not headcanoning a damn thing. You people are the ones doing so, claiming synthesis is so beneficial that it'll upgrade everyone! ... while Joker is still limping.

You're headcanonning that it's such a terrible thing.  Would you prefer that Shepard poll the entire galaxy on which decision to make?  Because I'm sure there would be advocates for all three options.  Some would be offended that the Geth are destroyed in Destroy.  Some could be offended that you would take control of these billion year old death machines and would argue that they should be flat out destroyed.

No matter what you choose, you're doing it without permission, and you'll make someone unhappy.

1.But it does change all life in the galexy with out their consent. One  ask any one if they what this and it effects everything at once..
2. Synthesis does exsist with out the need of the catalyst...The salarinas, human and Quarians are doing this on there owns.
This just facts...Not head cannon.

[Ieldra]

KDD-0063 wrote...
First, the whole point of synthesis is to avoid AI singularity.

No, that was the point of the Cycle.

The point of Synthesis is to prevent non-synthetic life from being made extinct by post-singularity synthetics.

So a little problem with the endings first: why the hell should Shepard care about this problem anyways?
Of course you could argue that the reapers force him/her to care, and solving this problem will solve the reaper threat.
However that is precisely what gives people this jarring feeling, especially when we want to blow them up in the most badass, brutal and satisfying way.

I get that some people feel that way. The thing is, I do not feel that way. I do not want to "blow them up in the most badass, and brutal way" because that is most emphatically not a satisfying outcome for me. And I'm getting seriously upset by people telling me I should feel that way, or that Shepard feels that way regardless of how I roleplay them. For some time, destroying the Reapers appeared to be the only way to end the threat. I've always found that regrettable, for ever since Legion explained what the Reapers were, I've found them interesting. Now that I have other options, I'd rather end the war by making peace with them. Synthesis will ensure that civilization will soon be powerful enough to stand against them should they cause problems again, and even so, with the Catalyst gone they aren't a unified force anymore.

[dreamgazer]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis violates everyone. EVERYONE. The organics, the Geth, everyone on every planet everywhere.

Everything.  Ecosystems also apparently won't be the same.