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[Face of Evil]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

"After the darkspawn destroyed Ferelden, the Fifth Blight came to an end at the border with Orlais, where the Grey Wardens — backed by legions of Orlesian chevaliers and troops from the Free Marches and Nevarra — slew the Archdemon. The Blight was ended before it could spread any further."

That's too opstimic opinion. I rather go by historical records of the past 4 blights where there wre the wardens too. And still most part of the world were destroyed. Tevinter Empire was forever disintgrate and million lives suffer.

That was the First Blight, when no one knew how to actually kill the Archdemon. The Fourth Blight lasted only 12 years, and so many darkspawn were killed that everyone thought their threat had ended forever.

The Grey Wardens that were turned away by Loghain returned home to bolster their defences. Had a darkspawn army marched across the border, they would have been ready to meet them.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

That's what happen when you undermine every other protagonist with over hyped "marketing" statement.

Yes, three years ago, someone (and I defy you to tell me exactly who it was) said Hawke was "the most important person on Thedas" at the time of the game. Namely, the time period in which no other Bioware protagonists were running around and doing important things.

Maker's breath, man, let it go.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 03 juin 2012 - 01:09 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

"After the darkspawn destroyed Ferelden, the Fifth Blight came to an end at the border with Orlais, where the Grey Wardens — backed by legions of Orlesian chevaliers and troops from the Free Marches and Nevarra — slew the Archdemon. The Blight was ended before it could spread any further."

That's too opstimic opinion. I rather go by historical records of the past 4 blights where there wre the wardens too. And still most part of the world were destroyed. Tevinter Empire was forever disintgrate and million lives suffer.

That was the First Blight, when no one knew how to actually kill the Archdemon. The Fourth Blight lasted only 12 years, and so many darkspawn were killed that everyone thought their threat had ended forever.

What about the second and the thrid blight? What about the average years taken to end those 4 blights? See that's the problem when you are too successful/lucky like the warden. People began to question the significant of the blight.

Face of Evil wrote...

The Grey Wardens that were turned away by Loghain returned home to bolster their defences. Had a darkspawn army marched across the border, they would have been ready to meet them.

Correct except we do not know they would be successful either. Riordan prove that not every wardens can kill the archdemon. Many wardens can try and fail. The PC warden just happen to be lucky because Riordan manage to severe the ardemon's wing and force it to stay at ground surrounded by balistas.You don't get opportunity everytime you deal with an archdemon.

[Face of Evil]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Correct except we do not know they would be successful either. Riordan prove that not every wardens can kill the archdemon. Many wardens can try and fail. The PC warden just happen to be lucky because Riordan manage to severe the ardemon's wing and force it to stay at ground surrounded by balistas.You don't get opportunity everytime you deal with an archdemon.

The Warden would never have fought the Archdemon atop Fort Drakon had Riordan not wounded it. Does that make Riordan the Most Important Person in Thedas?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 03 juin 2012 - 01:16 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

That's what happen when you undermine every other protagonist with over hyped "marketing" statement.

Yes, three years ago, someone (and I defy you to tell me exactly who it was) said Hawke was "the most important person on Thedas" at the time of the game. Namely, the time period in which no other Bioware protagonists were running around and doing important things.

Maker's breath, man, let it go.

Oh I agree to let it go on the premise that:

1. ) BioWare's words that they'll pay more attention to character agency and player agency for DA3's PC. No more useless pathetic character who fail on eveything. 

2. ) Hawke's story is over. There is nothing left to salvage. It's completely a waste of time to argue and speculate. What's important is the mage-templar conflicts which will be there in DA 3. - How to solve this problem without siding both extremist templars and lunatic bloodmages.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Correct except we do not know they would be successful either. Riordan prove that not every wardens can kill the archdemon. Many wardens can try and fail. The PC warden just happen to be lucky because Riordan manage to severe the ardemon's wing and force it to stay at ground surrounded by balistas.You don't get opportunity everytime you deal with an archdemon.

The Warden would never have fought the Archdemon atop Fort Drakon had Riordan not wounded it. Does that make Riordan the Most Important Person in Thedas?

Riordan still deserve the credit of being the important person for what he does by not simply watching the event unfold before him and do nothing to prevent it like the looser Hawke. Riordan did try to prevent it. Hawke did nothing.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[ElitePinecone]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Hawke's "importance" seems to be not a reflection of anything he/she achieved but rather a result of people making him/her a symbol of something or other - and thus a rallying point with the potential to be a key player in future negotiations

either that or the word "important" was a misspelling of "impotent"

Hm.

If they were going for some kind of complex narrative with Varric embellishing Hawke's story while various factions try to manoeuvre him/her as a political tool, that'd be... kinda interesting. Particularly if Hawke was aware of the various attempts and players could pursue their own agenda. 

But I don't really see how Hawke is a symbol of anything, except a person who stumbled into a variety of situations at opportune moments - even with the decision we make at the end of the game, we end up dispatching both leaders of the factions and the big Thedas event happens regardless. 

If anything *Anders* is a rallying cry for mages (as an example of action, freedom, yadda) and for templars (as the worst outcome of apostasy). Hawke backing one side or the other really doesn't seem to me to be that important, unless their position as Champion of Kirkwall or vanquisher of the Arishok is meant to impress the rest of Thedas. 

I mean, any one of the rulers in Orlais (the Divine, the Empress, that Duke) or Ferelden (the King/Queen) could be arguably much more powerful than Hawke, in terms of amassing influence or renown. If we're thinking 'most important person in the DA world' as everything falls to pieces, surely it's not the character we'll never get to control again and who had only a tangential relation to actually sparking what happens. 

[vallore]

Blame it on Varric.

Hawke really wasn’t responsible for anything of relevance for anyone outside of Kirkwall; he just stumbled into events, caused by other persons, and basically was incapable of changing them, significantly… but he really had an efficient, (if self-appointed), PR guy.

ElitePinecone wrote...

Hawke and the Warden (or Warden-Commander?) did go somewhere, for some reason. It doesn't explain why s/he's so important, and I doubt it was due to stopping a measly Qunari invasion or happening to be Champion of the city when things exploded. 

I'm more wondering if this was part of some overarching plot that we now won't get to see, since the plan is to move on to other protagonists.

Well, personally, I hope they leave the Warden out of DA3, anyway. It is impossible for Bioware to know what the motives and personality of each Warden is like. The Blight was a powerful enough motivation for very different characters to intervene, but after that? What could possibly motivate each and every single Warden to follow the same path, (or nearly so), regardless of personality and personal goals?

A few examples:

Not all Wardens cared for the Grey Wardens, so it is likely some would follow the path a certain slum doctor-mage and quit, going their own way. So seeing such with the Grey Wardens would be unlikely and out of character.

Not all Wardens were human, or Andrastian, or Ferelden, so it is unlikely, (or at least possible), that such Wardens would not be overly concerned with a human religious war, or it’s effect upon Ferelden, Orlais, etc… in fact, some could even be hostile to possible factions of DA4.

[Get Magna Carter]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Hawke's "importance" seems to be not a reflection of anything he/she achieved but rather a result of people making him/her a symbol of something or other - and thus a rallying point with the potential to be a key player in future negotiations

either that or the word "important" was a misspelling of "impotent"

Hm.

If they were going for some kind of complex narrative with Varric embellishing Hawke's story while various factions try to manoeuvre him/her as a political tool, that'd be... kinda interesting. Particularly if Hawke was aware of the various attempts and players could pursue their own agenda. 

But I don't really see how Hawke is a symbol of anything, except a person who stumbled into a variety of situations at opportune moments - even with the decision we make at the end of the game, we end up dispatching both leaders of the factions and the big Thedas event happens regardless. 

If anything *Anders* is a rallying cry for mages (as an example of action, freedom, yadda) and for templars (as the worst outcome of apostasy). Hawke backing one side or the other really doesn't seem to me to be that important, unless their position as Champion of Kirkwall or vanquisher of the Arishok is meant to impress the rest of Thedas. 

I mean, any one of the rulers in Orlais (the Divine, the Empress, that Duke) or Ferelden (the King/Queen) could be arguably much more powerful than Hawke, in terms of amassing influence or renown. If we're thinking 'most important person in the DA world' as everything falls to pieces, surely it's not the character we'll never get to control again and who had only a tangential relation to actually sparking what happens. 

Not certain what I can say as this is still a "NO Spoilers allowed" board...but in the ending I got Hawke was considered a symbol of the rebellion and the best hope for peace talks 
Anders would not do as he was 1) too heavily on one side 2) probably insane and 3) dead
Hawke as "champion of Kirkwall" is a more generally respected 'participant' in the events and thus more 'important' in the task of trying to end the conflict with minimal carnage than any other living individual.

Of course, it is possible that Hawke's true importance may have been defined by the events in 'Exalted March' - without that, Hawke's role may be reduced or removed to out-of-game events

[jbrand2002uk]

Those who say Hawke isnt important have one major eye opening flaw in their argument: Flemmeth, anyone who has played DAO and also read the books know that she has a knack of approaching people who either are important or will have importance in the future, We know she approached King Marric and made a deal that is later revealed in the new comics, She saves the Warden from death for obvious reasons she then approaches Hawke so clearly he is important it may not have happened yet.

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree and lets not forget he's the "Champion of Kirkwall" a title that isn't given for sitting around doing nothing as Sacred Fantasy claims and as Magna Carter says both sides have reason to respect him he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden plus he has a history of Magic in his Family making him more neutral than most.

[Dakota Strider]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Those who say Hawke isnt important have one major eye opening flaw in their argument: Flemmeth, anyone who has played DAO and also read the books know that she has a knack of approaching people who either are important or will have importance in the future, We know she approached King Marric and made a deal that is later revealed in the new comics, She saves the Warden from death for obvious reasons she then approaches Hawke so clearly he is important it may not have happened yet.

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree and lets not forget he's the "Champion of Kirkwall" a title that isn't given for sitting around doing nothing as Sacred Fantasy claims and as Magna Carter says both sides have reason to respect him he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden plus he has a history of Magic in his Family making him more neutral than most.

Flemeth and the Seekers, in DA2 were simply plot tools for the writers.  They were put in there to hype up Hawke, but none of that was based on substance.   Trusting what they say, would be like trusting a used car salesman, who will tell you anything to try to get you to buy a lemon.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Those who say Hawke isnt important have one major eye opening flaw in their argument: Flemmeth, anyone who has played DAO and also read the books know that she has a knack of approaching people who either are important or will have importance in the future, We know she approached King Marric and made a deal that is later revealed in the new comics, She saves the Warden from death for obvious reasons she then approaches Hawke so clearly he is important it may not have happened yet.

Correct except that you forget, Hawke was her Plan B, just in case Morrigan decided to turn against her. And she was right all along. Even so, she left a small warning to Hawke of what to come before leaving and never bother about the looser anymore.

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree

The Seekers has better target than useless Hawke. Now they know about Anders. I don't see why would they be interested in Hawke anymore especially when the Exalted March was scrapped and the story is no longer about Hawke but the event itself.

jbrand2002uk wrote...


and lets not forget he's the "Champion of Kirkwall" a title that isn't given for sitting around doing nothing as Sacred Fantasy claims

A title he earn due to his own incompetence as Viscount's representative and diplomat. And he was suppose to be proud about it? He is cleaning his own mess.

jbrand2002uk wrote...



 he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden

He didn't even know that my Amell had died heroically to defend his ass from the blight while he was running like a chicken. So don't talk about Amell the warden..

jbrand2002uk wrote...




plus he has a history of Magic in his Family making him more neutral than most.

Neutral of what?  No one going to listen to him.   He's been shoved aside to join the mage anyway. Just to prove how pathetatic and useless he is. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[vallore]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Those who say Hawke isnt important have one major eye opening flaw in their argument: Flemmeth, anyone who has played DAO and also read the books know that she has a knack of approaching people who either are important or will have importance in the future, We know she approached King Marric and made a deal that is later revealed in the new comics, She saves the Warden from death for obvious reasons she then approaches Hawke so clearly he is important it may not have happened yet.

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree and lets not forget he's the "Champion of Kirkwall" a title that isn't given for sitting around doing nothing as Sacred Fantasy claims and as Magna Carter says both sides have reason to respect him he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden plus he has a history of Magic in his Family making him more neutral than most.

It is possible that Hawke could still do something relevant after the game ends; however the game was not announced as the “obscure years of Hawke,” but rather as his “rise to power,” suggesting that, whatever relevant action Hawke was supposed to do it would occur during the time frame of the game.

Personally I think it is best to associate statements as Hawke being “the most important person in Thedas,” as the way Hawke was perceived by many, not because what he did,(that was not much, really), but rather because of the stories Varric told about him. Like the Seeker, in the beginning, the player is supposed tom believe Hawke had an importance he really didn’t had. Only when Varric is forced to tell the truth, (or something closer to it), is that the Seeker, and the player, are informed of what truly happened.

As for Flemmeth, <shrug>, Hawke played a role in her plans, and not everyone needs to be a hero like the Warden to be useful to her. Still, I did get the feeling that Bioware toyed with the idea of Hawke returning for a second game or an important expansion. Who knows what he could have done then? However with the dislike Hawke generated, that became unviable, so I wouldn’t expect much more from his story.

Modifié par vallore, 03 juin 2012 - 04:06 .

[Wulfram]

Hawke shouldn't be doing big important stuff after DA2 if they're not under the players control.

[Get Magna Carter]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree

The Seekers has better target than useless Hawke. Now they know about Anders. I don't see why would they be interested in Hawke anymore....

The seekers want someone for peace talks
Anders does not want peace
Anders is certifiable
Anders may be dead
For these reasons Hawke is a better candidate

[Get Magna Carter]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...
 he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden

He didn't even know that my Amell had died heroically to defend his ass from the blight while he was running like a chicken. So don't talk about Amell the warden..

So you're saying that Hawke should have thrown away his/her life in a futile stand against a massive army which would have shortly afterwards killed his mother, brother and sister rather than trying to escort his/her family to safety.

Why do you consider suicide a better choice than trying to protect relatives?

[jbrand2002uk]

While I agree the "rise to power" was a very cheesy piece of what has become typical EA marketing speak depending on how you define "rise to power" it is accurate to some extent because you start as a displaced refugee progressing to becoming a minor/major noble and possibly a Viscount so he/she does "rise to power" in that he/she finshes the story with more power/influence then they had at the start.

Also Sacred your opinion is based on the game not reflecting your headcannon and sorry to say but your headcannon is irrelevant to anyone except yourself and it could also be argued that your beloved warden is also Flemmeth's plan b to stop the blight before she became consumed by it as its possible she is one of the "old gods" and that the name Flemmeth is just an assumed identity

[Wulfram]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

The seekers want someone for peace talks
Anders does not want peace
Anders is certifiable
Anders may be dead
For these reasons Hawke is a better candidate

Though Hawke may be a crazy warmonger too.

[jbrand2002uk]

Sacred has a habbit of not listening to the Dialogue in DA2 as it conflicts with his imagination of what happened when Hawke and Carver 1st meet Aveline it is mentioned both Hawke(if Rogue or Warrior) and Carver served in 3rd Company under Captain Varrell which obviously wasnt part of the treasonous forces of Teryn Loghain which means they were fighting alongside the King and the Grey Wardens, hardly cowardly by any stretch of the imagination.

Since it was clear the Battle was lost and that Lothering would shortly be overrun they made the choice to try and save their family the whole reason for going to Kirkwall clearly stated in the dialogue that Sacred loves to ignore on purpose is that at the time Leandra was under the impression that the family (Gamlen) still had the estate as they had recieved no letter from Gamlen stating otherwise.

[Reznore57]

I think Hawke was the most important of Thedas during the event of DA2 , and that's it.
With his friend , he discovered a lost Thaig , that no dwarves even heard of , and even the Grey warden show interest in it.
He/she deals with the Arishok (leader of the qunari army , not a nobody) for a couple of years, then again stopped what could have been the start of a new qunari invasion on all Thedas ( If the Arishok had Kirkwall , he would have surely called for reinsforcement.).
And then he/she witness what cause the mage/templars rebellion , and play a part in it ,(via Anders and if he/she choose to help one side ).
He /she could have became a leader for the mages or templars but since there's no more Hawke story ...

[Rorschachinstein]

Hawke is kind of like the Archduke Ferdinand of the Dragon Age world. He knocked over the first domino and know people everywhere are saying his name. If you sided with the Mages, then they use Hawke as a rallying cry for freedom, and then the Imperium and Par Vollen use him as something to etc.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree

The Seekers has better target than useless Hawke. Now they know about Anders. I don't see why would they be interested in Hawke anymore....

The seekers want someone for peace talks
Anders does not want peace
Anders is certifiable
Anders may be dead
For these reasons Hawke is a better candidate

Some Hawkes don't want peace, I've read some pro-mage players comments they fully support Anders's action. Giving the amount of dialogue choices, Hawke can be pro-templar or pro mage or neutral. Therefore Hawke as better candidate is invalid. It depends on players. And yes I do want peaceful resolution between both mages and templars.. But it's not going to happen playing as Hawke.

[King Cousland]

Rorschachinstein wrote...

Hawke is kind of like the Archduke Ferdinand of the Dragon Age world. He knocked over the first domino and know people everywhere are saying his name. If you sided with the Mages, then they use Hawke as a rallying cry for freedom, and then the Imperium and Par Vollen use him as something to etc.

Not even that. If we use that analogy, Elthina was Ferdinand if anyone, Anders was Gavrilo Princip, and Hawke was at best a member of the Black Hand gang. Whichever way you look at it, they were unimportant. You could have removed them from the story enitrely and the game would have ended the same way. 

Modifié par harkness72, 03 juin 2012 - 06:58 .