139 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...
 he is an Amell after all the most respected of all noble families in Kirkwall and possibly releated to The Warden

He didn't even know that my Amell had died heroically to defend his ass from the blight while he was running like a chicken. So don't talk about Amell the warden..

So you're saying that Hawke should have thrown away his/her life in a futile stand against a massive army which would have shortly afterwards killed his mother, brother and sister rather than trying to escort his/her family to safety.

Why do you consider suicide a better choice than trying to protect relatives?

No. I was speaking about joining the Ferelden forces as either with Arl Eamon forces at Red Cliff or Loghain forces  at Denerim.

And I was speaking about the ending of DA 2 as well - where Hawke was chicken out instead of facing the truth even as Viscount..  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 juin 2012 - 07:00 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Sacred there you go again with assumptions it is not stated why Hawke left after he/she became Viscount and again you've blatently ignored the entire story to make it fit with your imagination Avelline, Hawke and Carver fight alongside the Grey Wardens and The King then when the King is killed along with Duncan and all the Grey Wardens with the exception of Alastair and The Warden who we know were overwhelemed in the tower of Ishal at that point the few survivours who stayed and fought after Loghain turned tail and ran made the decision to fall back rather then get pointlessly slain.

Hawke and Carver return to Lothering, barely manage to pull out their sister and mother, and lets not forget rescue Avelline from certain Death before in turn being rescued by Flemmeth after being assisted getting to Kirkwall they're told that they would get the same treatment in any city as they're all over run with Ferelden Refugees so they decide to stay in Kirkwall but to gain entry to the city they have to work for either the Mercs or the Smugglers and that it'll take a year to work off the debt.

1 Year later they have worked of the debt and left the Mercs/Smugglers approaching Bartrand for a spot on his expedition by this time the Blight is over so He/She had no reason to join Loghain/Eammon.

Its fine that you dont like the game blah blah blah however pay attention to the actual story in the game not the one in your imagination before making claims to its "quality"

[Get Magna Carter]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also the Seekers are not idiots they would not be looking for Hawke if He wasn't important to a degree

The Seekers has better target than useless Hawke. Now they know about Anders. I don't see why would they be interested in Hawke anymore....

The seekers want someone for peace talks
Anders does not want peace
Anders is certifiable
Anders may be dead
For these reasons Hawke is a better candidate

Some Hawkes don't want peace, I've read some pro-mage players comments they fully support Anders's action. Giving the amount of dialogue choices, Hawke can be pro-templar or pro mage or neutral. Therefore Hawke as better candidate is invalid. It depends on players. And yes I do want peaceful resolution between both mages and templars.. But it's not going to happen playing as Hawke.

My Hawke killed Anders...a corpse is a bad choice as a peace negotiator (especially years later)
Anders was a mass-murderer..I don't recall any option for Hawke to do anything that bad..

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Sacred there you go again with assumptions it is not stated why Hawke left after he/she became Viscount and again you've blatently ignored the entire story to make it fit with your imagination Avelline, Hawke and Carver fight alongside the Grey Wardens and The King then when the King is killed along with Duncan and all the Grey Wardens with the exception of Alastair and The Warden who we know were overwhelemed in the tower of Ishal at that point the few survivours who stayed and fought after Loghain turned tail and ran made the decision to fall back rather then get pointlessly slain.

Hawke and Carver return to Lothering, barely manage to pull out their sister and mother, and lets not forget rescue Avelline from certain Death before in turn being rescued by Flemmeth after being assisted getting to Kirkwall they're told that they would get the same treatment in any city as they're all over run with Ferelden Refugees so they decide to stay in Kirkwall but to gain entry to the city they have to work for either the Mercs or the Smugglers and that it'll take a year to work off the debt.

1 Year later they have worked of the debt and left the Mercs/Smugglers approaching Bartrand for a spot on his expedition by this time the Blight is over so He/She had no reason to join Loghain/Eammon.

Its fine that you dont like the game blah blah blah however pay attention to the actual story in the game not the one in your imagination before making claims to its "quality"

I'm aware of what happen at Ostagar. That's why I don't condemn them as desserters who should be courted martial . Both Hawkes are soldiers enlisted under King Cailan. As a soldier they knew very well their lines of duty. There is no pardon for every soldiers to desert his command post. But given the condition that they're trying to save their family in Loitering I'm willing to excuse their lack of discipline. They should report back to their commanders immedietely because their service in the army is urgent but they don't. While Hawke's cousin Amell was not trained as Ferelden's soldier she never turn her back against her country and died for it. Hawke turn his back on Ferelden when he was needed the most and now you want to justify their relation with the Amell just to claim how important Hawke is? 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Get Magna Carter wrote...
My Hawke killed Anders...a corpse is a bad choice as a peace negotiator (especially years later)
Anders was a mass-murderer..I don't recall any option for Hawke to do anything that bad.

Me too. But. the option to let Anders live is is there.  And if you romance Anders, Varric will tell that you  run away  with him. 
This is the kind of Hawkes I was referring as not valid candidates for peace.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 juin 2012 - 08:05 .

[Dakota Strider]

Perhaps Hawke was the Neville Chamberlain of Kirkwall. By some quirk of fate, he was thrust into a position of high influence. Yet, he was impotent in doing anything to resolve the situation before it got out of hand. If anything, he attempted to appease both sides, rather than see the real threat, until it literally blew up in his face.

[jbrand2002uk]

Sacred its likely that Hawke and Carver's Commander Captain Varrell was killed at Ostagar the only portion of the army that survived was Loghain's Traitorous bunch and who in their right mind would report to the man who ambandoned them in the field of battle purely to grab power for himself and as i said given the situation he rightly decided to try and save his family while kirkwall wasnt the best place given that at least one sibling/PC is a mage its the best of what choices there would be since as they would be treated the same in any city they went to but at least they have an uncle in Kirkwall who based on their knowledge at the time via letters is a noble with an Estate as Gamlen hadnt written to inform them he no longer owned the estate.

In order to get into the city he/she and Carver/Bethany had to work off the debt for a year and by the time this agreement had been honoured as well as their debt to Flemmeth the blight had been stopped so its not a case of Hawke being a coward and not joining the fight against the blight, its a case that the situation at hand and prior agreements made to get his family to a "safer" place meant that he/she was unable to rejoin Alastair/The Wardens army even though they likely wanted to,Plus the idea of Hawke being a coward does not hold any water because Hawke enlisted( Choose to join) not conscripted(Forced to join)

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Sacred its likely that Hawke and Carver's Commander Captain Varrell was killed at Ostagar the only portion of the army that survived was Loghain's Traitorous bunch and who in their right mind would report to the man who ambandoned them in the field of battle purely to grab power for himself

That's not up to you to judge Loghain. Some players feel Loghain was a hero who supported mages cause or whatever. I've read many posts that support Loghain. And no. I don't view that way. That's why I said earlier, Hawke could return to Arl Eamon Forces in Red Cliff or Loghain's Forces in Denerim. The Ferelden army hadn't been beaten yet. The option to fight back was there. Hawke never took it..

jbrand2002uk wrote...
  
and as i said given the situation he rightly decided to try and save his family while kirkwall wasnt the best place given that at least one sibling/PC is a mage its the best of what choices there would be since as they would be treated the same in any city they went to but at least they have an uncle in Kirkwall who based on their knowledge at the time via letters is a noble with an Estate as Gamlen hadnt written to inform them he no longer owned the estate.

In order to get into the city he/she and Carver/Bethany had to work off the debt for a year and by the time this agreement had been honoured as well as their debt to Flemmeth the blight had been stopped so its not a case of Hawke being a coward and not joining the fight against the blight, its a case that the situation at hand and prior agreements made to get his family to a "safer" place meant that he/she was unable to rejoin Alastair/The Wardens army even though they likely wanted to,

This is where I disagree with many people. I do not see Kirkwall as viable option, whether there is Gamlen or not. Kirkwall is no place to live.. It's has dark history over the past. It's a cursed place. So going to Kirkwall is like going to hell. Hawke could easily outrun the darkspawn to the south under Flemeth's protection. Had Hawke stay in Ferelden, he wouldn't had to sell himself to pay the debt and Flemeth's locket is not urgent either. 
 

jbrand2002uk wrote...
 

Plus the idea of Hawke being a coward does not hold any water because Hawke enlisted( Choose to join) not conscripted(Forced to join)

Whether Hawke is enlisted or conscripted is irrelevant. When the country is under threat it's responsibity for every eligible man to take arm and defend the nation. It's what my warden did in Redcliff village. There is no right and wrong to get the man needed to save everyone else lifes through whatever mean necessary. There is no excuse not to join the army or any organized militia.

[Dakota Strider]

I will not call Hawke a coward for getting his family out of the path of the Blight. When the army he was part of, was destroyed through betrayal, and he was left to fend on his own. Whatever chain of command he was under no longer existed. And I am one that believes you prioritize family above country.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

But if the blight is not defeated then nowhere is safe to go. Many man lost their families in war but if every man stay home defending their family than every man and his family has no chance to live.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 03 juin 2012 - 09:56 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Again you forget the story Flemmeth's protection had a price that price was to deliver the amulet to Keeper Marathari and her clan at Sundermount in exchange for protection as far as Gwarren Flemmeth made it quite clear she was more than prepared to leave them to be killed if the deal wasnt struck,Kirkwall is not viable to you because once again you ignored the story,

The guard in the gallows makes it quite clear that the situation is no better in any of the other cities all are overflowing with Ferelden Refugees.

What your Warden did is irrelevant as all he/she was asked to do in return for Flemmeth's intervention at the tower of Ishal was to fight against the blight and take Morrigan with them
as for what I said about Loghain its not a personal judgement its fact, he turned and ran when he should have stood and fought he declared himself the Queens Regent then allowed Howe to lock his Daughter away when she became a threat to him and even if Loghain did support the mages are you implying that doing a deal with the Tevinters to allow them to kidnap eleves from the alienage in exchange for gold to bolster his private army acceptable.

[Blacklash93]

I'm sure they had better things planned, originally. But the corporate powers that be rushed DA2 out the door before the writers could realize their vision. A mistake that shouldn't repeat again since the devs certainly acknoledged this mistake on the record multiple times.

If you look at all the things in the Destiny trailer you'd know they had many scenes planned that would have made for a more interesting and impactful experience:

- A bigger role for Flemeth and a legion of Witches seemingly associated with her might have been on the table at some point.
- Confronting Isabela on the docks about a certain something I can't talk about on a non-spoiler board.
- A Harvester in the deep roads instead of its strange appearance somewhere else I can't talk about here.
- Hawke fighting some strange statue.
- A more climactic battle with the Arishok that takes place outdoors.

Devs have mentioned things scrapped in development because of time constraints, as well. Like a plot in the first act about the mage sibling of the Hawke family avoiding the Templars or a more fleshed out Orsino.

Of course nothing guarantees that the writers would have made Hawke less reactive in role with more time or if these missed opportunities saw the light of day, but even if s/he still was the game would have been more impactful and of better quality.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 juin 2012 - 10:35 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Again you forget the story Flemmeth's protection had a price that price was to deliver the amulet to Keeper Marathari and her clan at Sundermount in exchange for protection as far as Gwarren Flemmeth made it quite clear she was more than prepared to leave them to be killed if the deal wasnt struck,Kirkwall is not viable to you because once again you ignored the story,

I didn't ignore Flemeth's bargain. I've said earlier Flemeth's locket is not urgent. Hawke could deliver the locket to Keeper Marathari anytime he wanted. She even mocked she couldn't care less even if Hawke decided to sell the locket. It seem to me she only require Hawke to take the locket. So no. Despite the bargain, Hawke has no obligation to do it immediately.  

jbrand2002uk wrote...

The guard in the gallows makes it quite clear that the situation is no better in any of the other cities all are overflowing with Ferelden Refugees.

Except that no other cities is infested with insane templars and mages like Kirkwall. Kirkwall is abnormal because of it's dark history.

jbrand2002uk wrote...


What your Warden did is irrelevant as all he/she was asked to do in return for Flemmeth's intervention at the tower of Ishal was to fight against the blight and take Morrigan with them.

I didn't say the Warden deal with Flemeth. I said what my warden did in Redcliff was to force every eligible man in Redcliff Village to defend the village through any mean necessary whether it's right or wrong.  

jbrand2002uk wrote...

as for what I said about Loghain its not a personal judgement its fact, he turned and ran when he should have stood and fought he declared himself the Queens Regent then allowed Howe to lock his Daughter away when she became a threat to him and even if Loghain did support the mages are you implying that doing a deal with the Tevinters to allow them to kidnap eleves from the alienage in exchange for gold to bolster his private army acceptable.

Like I said I don't view Loghian as innocent and naive either but some people feel Ostagar defeat was due to King Cailan's fault for believing the legend of the grey warden's gryphon. And I'm not interest to argue about that. That's why I leave the option open. If you feel Loghain cannot be trusted, then you could go join Arl Eamon's forces. I'm certain Hawke is well aware that Arl Eamon's troops wasn't arrive at Ostagar yet and fully intact. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 04 juin 2012 - 01:45 .

[rapscallioness]

The Warden and Hawke are out of the picture now. Those days are over.

God only knows what BW will come up with. Nothing BW says is written in stone. If they need to flip something to serve whatever initiative of the moment, then they will.

Trying to figure out what direction BW may go based on info they've given in the past is a futile endeavor.

Regardless, I do wish BW would get on with it already. Put together and release a brief synopsis, or something to give us an idea as to what direction they see the franchise going.

They must have some idea at this point. All I know is that whatever future game will center around the mage/templar war...right? That's been confirmed, right?

And that there May be a french type of city involved.....

[chunkyman]

Hawke is sort of like Forest Gump, except I don't hate Forest Gump.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

rapscallioness wrote...
They must have some idea at this point. All I know is that whatever future game will center around the mage/templar war...right? That's been confirmed, right?

I think mage-templar may be part of it in the form of what suppose to be the Exalted March but I don't think it will likely center around mage-templar-chantry conflict. I don't think BioWare is interested to continue story from previous title in whole. I bet it's something different with mage-templar as small part of it.  

rapscallioness wrote...

And that there May be a french type of city involved....

Yes and I don't think it's Orlais. Because everytime we predict a location, it's way off than what we predicted. Most people correctly predicted DA 2 was set up for mage-templar conflict. Howver, none predicted it to be happen at Kirkwall. 

[ElitePinecone]

harkness72 wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

Hawke is kind of like the Archduke Ferdinand of the Dragon Age world. He knocked over the first domino and know people everywhere are saying his name. If you sided with the Mages, then they use Hawke as a rallying cry for freedom, and then the Imperium and Par Vollen use him as something to etc.

Not even that. If we use that analogy, Elthina was Ferdinand if anyone, Anders was Gavrilo Princip, and Hawke was at best a member of the Black Hand gang. Whichever way you look at it, they were unimportant. You could have removed them from the story enitrely and the game would have ended the same way. 

I'd have to agree - which still begs the question of how Hawke is important. Because beyond being artificially inflated by Varric (or the writers) as being influential or notorious throughout Thedas, they really have no right to be - unless something happens post-DA2 to make them so vital to the future world. 

[Get Magna Carter]

ElitePinecone wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

Hawke is kind of like the Archduke Ferdinand of the Dragon Age world. He knocked over the first domino and know people everywhere are saying his name. If you sided with the Mages, then they use Hawke as a rallying cry for freedom, and then the Imperium and Par Vollen use him as something to etc.

Not even that. If we use that analogy, Elthina was Ferdinand if anyone, Anders was Gavrilo Princip, and Hawke was at best a member of the Black Hand gang. Whichever way you look at it, they were unimportant. You could have removed them from the story enitrely and the game would have ended the same way. 

I'd have to agree - which still begs the question of how Hawke is important. Because beyond being artificially inflated by Varric (or the writers) as being influential or notorious throughout Thedas, they really have no right to be - unless something happens post-DA2 to make them so vital to the future world. 

I think it comes down to questions of what does "important" mean and at what time Hawke is considered important.
As I see it, Hawke is considered "important" (by Cassandra, etc) at the end of Dragon Age 2 as Hawke is considered the best hope for resolvng the mage-templar conflict.
The fact that Hawke was only indirectly/unintentionally involved in the start of the conflict is irrelevent once the conflict is under way.

[Kail Ashton]

Hawke is probably one of the least important characters in all of gaming history, nothing you did had any impact on anything beyond a few scrubs lives, the only big choice to be made in the game at all was made by Anders with or without your help

Almost everything would've played out the same if Hawke never existed, it's truely pathetic, it's like i'm playing "background npc #326" over here, so yes the main character actually DOES need to be saving the world from great evil every game, not "hey guy! i found this skeleton, reward now please? "

[Get Magna Carter]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Hawke is probably one of the least important characters in all of gaming history, nothing you did had any impact on anything beyond a few scrubs lives, the only big choice to be made in the game at all was made by Anders with or without your help

Almost everything would've played out the same if Hawke never existed, it's truely pathetic, it's like i'm playing "background npc #326" over here, so yes the main character actually DOES need to be saving the world from great evil every game, not "hey guy! i found this skeleton, reward now please? :D"

Actually, I'm not so certain how things would have gone if Hawke had not been there. The obvious thing Hawke did of significance was resolve the Qunari problem - without Hawke this could have ended very differently.
We also do not know if the idol would have been retrieved from the Deep Roads if Hawke had not been involved in the expedition (without it Meredith would have been less crazy and later events significantly different).
I believe other actions taken by Hawke may have had a significant effect albeit indirectly.

[Dakota Strider]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

Hawke is probably one of the least important characters in all of gaming history, nothing you did had any impact on anything beyond a few scrubs lives, the only big choice to be made in the game at all was made by Anders with or without your help

Almost everything would've played out the same if Hawke never existed, it's truely pathetic, it's like i'm playing "background npc #326" over here, so yes the main character actually DOES need to be saving the world from great evil every game, not "hey guy! i found this skeleton, reward now please? :D"

Actually, I'm not so certain how things would have gone if Hawke had not been there. The obvious thing Hawke did of significance was resolve the Qunari problem - without Hawke this could have ended very differently.
We also do not know if the idol would have been retrieved from the Deep Roads if Hawke had not been involved in the expedition (without it Meredith would have been less crazy and later events significantly different).
I believe other actions taken by Hawke may have had a significant effect albeit indirectly.

Hmm, as long as we are throwing around comparisons, I think you have just made the case that if Kirkwall/Thedas was Gilligan's Island, Hawke would have to be Gilligan.  Well intentioned, but always messing things up.

[Jerrybnsn]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I think there were several companions in Hawke's party that were more important to the world of Dragon Age than Hawke. It is not a stretch to say both Isabella and Anders have done more to effect the world. .

Yep, think this is true. Anders did things that had more impact then the things Hawke did.

As a defence for Hawke I must add that Anders did most things because he hung out with Hawke and s/he helped him with several tasks. But in the end he could have done it with the help of others also.........

I opted out of helping Anders and he still found a way to set up the conflict of Act III.  With or without Hawke, Anders was the most important person in the DAII game.

[AkiKishi]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

I think it comes down to questions of what does "important" mean and at what time Hawke is considered important.
As I see it, Hawke is considered "important" (by Cassandra, etc) at the end of Dragon Age 2 as Hawke is considered the best hope for resolvng the mage-templar conflict.
The fact that Hawke was only indirectly/unintentionally involved in the start of the conflict is irrelevent once the conflict is under way.

Cassandra had no idea what was going on. Clearly the people of Kirkwall were making stuff up that never really happened attributing all sorts of things to Hawke when in reality he did very little.

[Get Magna Carter]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

I think it comes down to questions of what does "important" mean and at what time Hawke is considered important.
As I see it, Hawke is considered "important" (by Cassandra, etc) at the end of Dragon Age 2 as Hawke is considered the best hope for resolvng the mage-templar conflict.
The fact that Hawke was only indirectly/unintentionally involved in the start of the conflict is irrelevent once the conflict is under way.

Cassandra had no idea what was going on. Clearly the people of Kirkwall were making stuff up that never really happened attributing all sorts of things to Hawke when in reality he did very little.

exactly.  
Hawke is important because Hawke is believed to be important  because importance is based on perception and future potential and not on actual past achievements 

[brushyourteeth]

I think Varric said it all when he said that history is written by the best storytellers. He just happens to be one of the best, and chooses to feature Hawke as the hero of his stories.

Not that I believe everything about the DAII narrative was untrustworthy. Just that he naturally loves to exaggerate Hawke's ability and importance.