139 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I think there were several companions in Hawke's party that were more important to the world of Dragon Age than Hawke. It is not a stretch to say both Isabella and Anders have done more to effect the world. .

Yep, think this is true. Anders did things that had more impact then the things Hawke did.

As a defence for Hawke I must add that Anders did most things because he hung out with Hawke and s/he helped him with several tasks. But in the end he could have done it with the help of others also.........

I opted out of helping Anders and he still found a way to set up the conflict of Act III.  With or without Hawke, Anders was the most important person in the DAII game.

Which may have been the case if it wasn't for the Legend of Varric... That dude got around.

[jbrand2002uk]

well at the very least Hawke ensured the Flemmeth either managed to survive being killed by Morrigan/The Warden or acheived being able to be in 2 separate places at the same time and Flemmeth is hardly a minnow in the pond and lets not forget of all those in Kirkwall the Arishok could have respected most by calling the basalit aan he chose Hawke and remember the Arishok is almost impossible to please never mind gaining his respect so yes he is important

[Sacred_Fantasy]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I think there were several companions in Hawke's party that were more important to the world of Dragon Age than Hawke. It is not a stretch to say both Isabella and Anders have done more to effect the world. .

Yep, think this is true. Anders did things that had more impact then the things Hawke did.

As a defence for Hawke I must add that Anders did most things because he hung out with Hawke and s/he helped him with several tasks. But in the end he could have done it with the help of others also.........

I opted out of helping Anders and he still found a way to set up the conflict of Act III.  With or without Hawke, Anders was the most important person in the DAII game.

Which may have been the case if it wasn't for the Legend of Varric... That dude got around.

Ah.. The indoctrinated Hawke. It's all a dream.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

well at the very least Hawke ensured the Flemmeth either managed to survive being killed by Morrigan/The Warden or acheived being able to be in 2 separate places at the same time and Flemmeth is hardly a minnow in the pond and lets not forget of all those in Kirkwall the Arishok could have respected most by calling the basalit aan he chose Hawke and remember the Arishok is almost impossible to please never mind gaining his respect so yes he is important

I thought some people decribed Hawke as an average joe. Average joe can't be called "basalit aan" by soemone like Arishok, can he? 

[MKDAWUSS]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I think there were several companions in Hawke's party that were more important to the world of Dragon Age than Hawke. It is not a stretch to say both Isabella and Anders have done more to effect the world. .

Yep, think this is true. Anders did things that had more impact then the things Hawke did.

As a defence for Hawke I must add that Anders did most things because he hung out with Hawke and s/he helped him with several tasks. But in the end he could have done it with the help of others also.........

I opted out of helping Anders and he still found a way to set up the conflict of Act III.  With or without Hawke, Anders was the most important person in the DAII game.

Which may have been the case if it wasn't for the Legend of Varric... That dude got around.

Ah.. The indoctrinated Hawke. It's all a dream.

More like strawman.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I think there were several companions in Hawke's party that were more important to the world of Dragon Age than Hawke. It is not a stretch to say both Isabella and Anders have done more to effect the world. .

Yep, think this is true. Anders did things that had more impact then the things Hawke did.

As a defence for Hawke I must add that Anders did most things because he hung out with Hawke and s/he helped him with several tasks. But in the end he could have done it with the help of others also.........

I opted out of helping Anders and he still found a way to set up the conflict of Act III.  With or without Hawke, Anders was the most important person in the DAII game.

Which may have been the case if it wasn't for the Legend of Varric... That dude got around.

Ah.. The indoctrinated Hawke. It's all a dream.

More like strawman.

And what make you think the Legend of Varric is any different than a dream. They're both not real.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 juin 2012 - 03:22 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@ MKDAWUSS

See my reply on page 2 of this thread; you just summed it up with one word: strawman.

This was Hawke's importance I guess: the story is told by Varric through Hawke's eyes.

And where is Hawke's body? Surely there can't be eyes without body?
I think what you describe as Hawke'eyes is imagination derived from Varric's story. You see, it's a story within a story.  Hawke's story, the black book, is within DA 2's story of Varric and Cassandra. That's what it meant to me. So no. it's not, actually, seeing through Hawke's eyes. It's seeing through Cassandra's eyes and our imagination as player as an omniscient third person observer, as welll. Hawke himself doesn't exist in current world..


Edit. You can only see through Hawke's eyes if Hawke himself is the narrator like Michael Throton in Alpha Protocol, Ezio in Assasins Creeds and Bella Swain in The Twilight. This people are first person. Varric, Cassandra and we, the player are third person. Hawke is the first person. And DA 2 is third person storytelling. First person doesn't exist. Hawke doesn't exist. ( He was a thing of the past ). So no. there is no Hawke's eyes.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 juin 2012 - 03:19 .

[dragonflight288]

Hawke may not have personally did much for himself, but what he symbolized (and is largely exaggerated) is what people remember. The Ferelden who went from rags to riches in a city with a lot of prejudice against Fereldens. Restored a noble house that many families did not want to see come back. Drove out the qunari (whether in a one-on-one duel, big battle, or negotiations) and prevented the Qunari from focibly converting the city to the Qun, and most of that was built up unbelievably by Varric, and stories grow in the telling.

It's no wonder people would believe Hawke to be more important than he actually was. (Assuming Hawke was indeed, played as a male.)

[Sacred_Fantasy]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote... 
Guess you are referring to the whole narrative storytelling thing here (do not know if I spelled it correctly here; not native english) and yes think we are talking about a story in a story (and maybe even a story in that).

Sure we can debate on the fact if Hawke really excists in current world but I think that every player must make out for him/herself how s/he wants to interpretate the 'Kirkwall episode' of Dragon Age. I

That is part of roleplaying too

I roleplay only if I can decide what my character motivation, personality and thoughts. I can't do that in DA 2. Hawke is Hawke. He/she belong to predetermined personality of his own. I don't shape his personality, motivation and I  have no idea of what he's thinking.. Because he never reflect anything I had in my mind. Despite all the option given to me, he still himself. So it's not roleplaying for me. But I accept it's my issue and not everyone else issue. A subjective issue..  

sjpelkessjpeler wrote... 

I have my opinion and you have yours. I for one respect yours because everyone is entitled to have one and there is no right or wrong in the way you play and see/interpretate a game.

Isn't that why we post our opinion? To share and to have a discussion? Otherwise no one will visit the forum.:happy:

[Sacred_Fantasy]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Hawke may not have personally did much for himself, but what he symbolized (and is largely exaggerated) is what people remember. The Ferelden who went from rags to riches in a city with a lot of prejudice against Fereldens. Restored a noble house that many families did not want to see come back. Drove out the qunari (whether in a one-on-one duel, big battle, or negotiations) and prevented the Qunari from focibly converting the city to the Qun, and most of that was built up unbelievably by Varric, and stories grow in the telling.

Symbolized figure? Hmm... Interesting. Thank you for sharing and clarifying. It's a new perspective for me.

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's no wonder people would believe Hawke to be more important than he actually was. (Assuming Hawke was indeed, played as a male.)

So now we know it's not the case. I think most people will be disappointed if they know the truth. 

[AkiKishi]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

exactly.  
Hawke is important because Hawke is believed to be important  because importance is based on perception and future potential and not on actual past achievements 

I was thinking along the lines of those people you only know through third hand accounts, or by reputation through others, then when you finaly do meet them , or find out the truth. They turn out ot be a huge disapointment.

[Kail Ashton]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

Hawke is probably one of the least important characters in all of gaming history, nothing you did had any impact on anything beyond a few scrubs lives, the only big choice to be made in the game at all was made by Anders with or without your help

Almost everything would've played out the same if Hawke never existed, it's truely pathetic, it's like i'm playing "background npc #326" over here, so yes the main character actually DOES need to be saving the world from great evil every game, not "hey guy! i found this skeleton, reward now please? :D"

Actually, I'm not so certain how things would have gone if Hawke had not been there. The obvious thing Hawke did of significance was resolve the Qunari problem - without Hawke this could have ended very differently.
We also do not know if the idol would have been retrieved from the Deep Roads if Hawke had not been involved in the expedition (without it Meredith would have been less crazy and later events significantly different).
I believe other actions taken by Hawke may have had a significant effect albeit indirectly.

How significant was Hawke to the Qunori invasion though? Meridith was set to storm in and mop up, i don't doubt for a second she could've taken out the Arishok solo or with her templars & throwing mages at them enough, Hawke didn't save anyone there that Merideth wouldn't have gotten to

The idol is more iffy, i can't believe though that bartrand & Varik wouldn't have found a route in one way or the other (varik was the one to sugest finding anders, no reason varik wouldn't have aproaced him) so they would've had the maps and picked the same route anyway, bartrand would've done what he done regardless which would've meant the idol would end up where it did in the end anyway

So yeah, Hawke really didn't factor into how it played out i'd suspect, everything would've gone the way it had regardless, just in slight variations with a probable dead varik in a deep roads pit

[GodWood]

Hawke: The (wo)man who was near the man who sort of/not really instigated the war between the mages and the templars.


Truly an important figure in the history of Thedas.

[ElitePinecone]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hawke may not have personally did much for himself, but what he symbolized (and is largely exaggerated) is what people remember. The Ferelden who went from rags to riches in a city with a lot of prejudice against Fereldens. Restored a noble house that many families did not want to see come back. Drove out the qunari (whether in a one-on-one duel, big battle, or negotiations) and prevented the Qunari from focibly converting the city to the Qun, and most of that was built up unbelievably by Varric, and stories grow in the telling.

It's no wonder people would believe Hawke to be more important than he actually was. (Assuming Hawke was indeed, played as a male.)

Yeah, and it becomes about perceptions and legacies, which is interesting - but with no external frame of reference, everything becomes about the room that Cassandra and Varric are in, and we don't exactly get a sense of why Hawke has grown to be so renowned throughout Thedas. The game ends with a direct connection between Hawke and the Warden, and we're assuming whatever it is that's happened to them will take place in future games. 

Maybe it would've been less confusing if DA2 had been a little more explicit about Hawke's enduring symbolism, or even had a sign of a lasting legacy within the framed narrative. I know it skips over all those parties we supposedly went to where Hawke cemented her/his relationship with the nobles of Kirkwall, but some kind of reference to wider importance beyond "you killed the Arishok, bam, you're Champion, bam, you need to solve the mage/templar crisis, bam, you're now famous and/or the single most important person in the world of Dragon Age!" would probably have helped. 

I guess it's just interesting to note the dichotomy between "Hawke as the single most important person in Thedas" and the reality of DA2, which ends with the Champion as a local hero and a sort of vague indication that they're a piece of a larger mystery. Given that there's a new protagonist, does this leave Hawke's planned story arc unfilfilled? 

[dragonflight288]

Yeah, and it becomes about perceptions and legacies, which is interesting - but with no external frame of reference, everything becomes about the room that Cassandra and Varric are in, and we don't exactly get a sense of why Hawke has grown to be so renowned throughout Thedas. The game ends with a direct connection between Hawke and the Warden, and we're assuming whatever it is that's happened to them will take place in future games.

Maybe it would've been less confusing if DA2 had been a little more explicit about Hawke's enduring symbolism, or even had a sign of a lasting legacy within the framed narrative. I know it skips over all those parties we supposedly went to where Hawke cemented her/his relationship with the nobles of Kirkwall, but some kind of reference to wider importance beyond "you killed the Arishok, bam, you're Champion, bam, you need to solve the mage/templar crisis, bam, you're now famous and/or the single most important person in the world of Dragon Age!" would probably have helped.

I guess it's just interesting to note the dichotomy between "Hawke as the single most important person in Thedas" and the reality of DA2, which ends with the Champion as a local hero and a sort of vague indication that they're a piece of a larger mystery. Given that there's a new protagonist, does this leave Hawke's planned story arc unfilfilled?

I both agree and disagree with this. I mean, if Alistair is king, he comes in already knowing about Hawke, and specifically asks him/her to protect Kirkwall. Fenriel's letter shows that Hawke is incredibly famous, even in Tevinter because they absolutely drink up any stories about a Qunari defeat. Depending on when we do the DLCs, people in Orlais love the idea of Hawke, the Ferelden who went from rags to riches, and is largely considered a powerful fighter.

Hawke is known for overcoming everything put in his/her path, and not only that, but excelling while at it.

It could easily have been better implemented and shown, but I think there's enough hints in-game to show that the symbolized version of Hawke is most definitely getting around.

[jbrand2002uk]

We could assume there is some exaggeration in Varric's telling of Hawke and yes at first he made out that Bethany had huge breasts etc but when Cassandra saw through that when she replied BS its safe to say that theres a chance maybe everything after that was the straight honest truth. or maybe mildly embellished

[HiroVoid]

It'll be a cool feature to hear about how Hawke singlehandedly stopped armies in Dragon Age 3.

[jbrand2002uk]

HiroVoid wrote...

It'll be a cool feature to hear about how Hawke singlehandedly stopped armies in Dragon Age 3.

What you didnt hear......... he felled them in one swift move with a thunderous deep mushroom infused fart lol:D

[TEWR]

Sacred its likely that Hawke and Carver's Commander Captain Varrell was killed at Ostagar the only portion of the

Nope. It was Seneschal Varel from Awakening. His codex entry on his character says that he was eventually demoted to the rank of Captain because he kept standing up to Arl Howe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I doubt it as Awakenings takes place after Ostagar unless he was demoted to Captain prior to Ostagar then reinstated to Seneschal after the the archdemon is slain

[Vormaerin]

Its really quite simple. Bioware tried to tell a certain kind of story with Hawke. They missed the mark somewhat due to a fairly common GM error: putting the plot ahead of the player. They've admitted that they undercut player (and character) agency with their narrative decisions.

If they had told the same story in a fashion that allowed Hawke (and the player) to act and to be a leader, then the marketing hype would have been correct.

There isn't some conspiracy of marketing hype. There's just a case of authorial overreach. They story they ended up telling wasn't the story they were trying to tell.

Personally, I hope they try again.  I like the kind of story they tried to tell.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 juin 2012 - 10:05 .

[TEWR]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I doubt it as Awakenings takes place after Ostagar unless he was demoted to Captain prior to Ostagar then reinstated to Seneschal after the the archdemon is slain

....that's what I just said.

Prior to Awakening, he was very briefly the Seneschal of Amaranthine. But due to his constant objections to Arl Howe's more... sinister acts, he was demoted to the rank of Captain.

During Ostagar, he had to have been there. After Ostagar, he more then likely returned to Amaranthine where he used what limited power he had to help people. Eventually he was caught and imprisoned, waiting for his time at the hangman's noose.

But Howe died first. Once the lands of Amaranthine were given to the Grey Wardens, he was freed and reappointed.