215 réponses à ce sujet

[mcz2345]

Pick synthesis and nobody will starve
jk

[shodiswe]

A lot of people will suffer initialy, galactic economy will suffer initialy... the need for innovation will trigger a technological renesance.

A lot more people survived due to stopping the reapers tha lettign them kill everyone.

I still find my shepards performance when confronting the Catalyst appaling though... terrible ending.. I can't support my shepards words or indecisiveness.... That's my main problem with the ending.

[Oldbones2]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Now, people have talked a lot about the destruction of the relays, pondering whether their destruction would obliterate the systems they were in, hypothesizing about the potential of re-building them, arguing about whether or not the fleet in Sol system can return home, etc.

But I think few people have actually considered what cutting the supply lines like that actually means: it doesn't really matter whether the species of the galaxy will eventually be able to invent a technology that fills the gap - right there and then, it means that billions throughout the war-torn galaxy WILL die, even if the explosions were harmless.

No relays - no interstellar traffic. No interstellar traffic - no supply lines. No supply lines - billions of casualties. The worst thing that can happen to a disaster area is being cut off - and that is exactly what happens to pretty much every planet in the Mass Effect universe.

Plenty of people who know about logistics and the complexity of supply in modern society understand how devastating this will be for the galaxy.

Others....do not.

[Oldbones2]

shodiswe wrote...

A lot of people will suffer initialy, galactic economy will suffer initialy... the need for innovation will trigger a technological renesance.

A lot more people survived due to stopping the reapers tha lettign them kill everyone.

I still find my shepards performance when confronting the Catalyst appaling though... terrible ending.. I can't support my shepards words or indecisiveness.... That's my main problem with the ending.

A lot of people will suffer initially....

Try EVERYONE will suffer initially.

And expect initially to last for centuries for any of the world's that suffered major Reaper attacks.  ie homeworlds.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

That's a great picture, showing clouds and clearings....

That are on fire.

About those ships - if they all enter on one trajectory, melt together on entry into the atmosphere - not get burned on the entry, and hit the same spot... It still won't be a strong enough hit. Come on, get real.

You have no idea what the affects of accumilated debris and continual nuclear level explosions will do to Earth, do you?

Look you can argue that people will survive all you want, but Earth is toast. It's gone. It's wrecked. There's no argument here. You can't headcanon your way out of that.
It's toast either way, but at least with the relays it has a change at eventual recovery and evacuation of the population to a known garden world.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[Cypher_CS]

@Oldbones, you are assuming that the people who managed Logistics BEFORE this war were complete dumbasses. Because, again, these are self sustaining systems.

And I'm saying this as a Logistics Officer.

@Angry one,
The clouds are on fire? Or are those just fires?
Yes, it's wrecked. But it's not beyond repair.

You have absolutely NO evidence to say that it is.
So, stop headcannoning yourself (whatever the hell that means).

[The Night Mammoth]

Cypher_CS wrote...

You have absolutely NO evidence to say that it is.
So, stop headcannoning yourself (whatever the hell that means).

Well I wouldn't say that. 

We know the force with which the shots of these main guns hit the surface of a planet. We know they're firing directly at Earth. We know some of these shots miss the Reapers. We know there's a huge amount of wreckage in space. We know ships can survive re-entry when damaged, and can thus postulate there's going to be a lot of damage to Earth's surface. 

Don't know about Nuclear Winter, that seems a little far-fetched, but to assume everything's rosey would be disingenuous. 

[Cypher_CS]

As you may note, from reading my replies, I never said there wouldn't be damage or that all will be rosey.
There will be damage. There will be climate change. But not a nuclear winter.

Also, just for the sake of an accurate argument:
-You don't know the force with which the shots of these main guns hit. Not beyond knowing "it's powerful".
-We do know ships can survive re-entry, but that hugely depends on angle of approach, if all the Sci-Fiish force fields and mass effect fields and what not have failed. I'm assuming they fail, otherwise there wouldn't be much need for the ship to drop from orbit.

[Averdi]

I'm not sure about nuclear winter, too much unknown. If the fires are quickly extinquished and no major pieces of space debris (reapers or large chunks of the citadel) impact Earth, then probably not. A nuclear autumn, perhaps.

Even without nuclear winter though, Earth is in dire straits. Likely destruction of water treatment, medicine and fuel production, energy and local transportation infrastructure, and environmental damage seems likely to result in plenty of starvation, disease, and death even after the reapers are gone. Depending on who got culled, there could be shortages of skilled labor. And without the relays, there's no way to bring in help from less-effected worlds in any major way.

Honestly, the geth may be Earth's best hope here, if they weren't destroyed.

And Earth isn't unique. Besides Rannoch and Tuchanka, the other major worlds are likely to be in similar circumstances.

Certainly life will go on, but it's hard to see a way that the end of the reaper threat doesn't usher in a galactic dark age.

[Tigerman123]

I don't think interstellar trade would make much sense , except in the case of highly specialised and differentiated goods such as munitions or sophisticated electronics, which is actually the ostensible purpose of the interplanetary corporations we see. Interstellar travel was never costless even with the relays; all IS vessels need ftl capacity to reach relays in a timely fashion, the cost of which increases geometrically with the mass of the vessel in question.

You've got to remember in this discussion that regardless of the trade deficits or surpluses that individual countries have, in aggregate our world is in balance with itself (if you ignore the accounting errors which say it isn't), we don't need to import machine tools or grain from alpha centuri to survive, we can do so ourselves. Why is there a claim that the denizens of these worlds would be unable to do so? It's a completely false analogy to compare a planet to a country. Trade generally arises on our planet through the uneven distribution of resources, or from a country specialising in a certain good and achieving a comparative advantage in through economies of scale etc, but any solar system would likely have a surplus in any factor of production such as raw materials or land, so trade would arise from asymmetric costs, not from need and in the case of most good transportation costs would negate the possibility

[Averdi]

Tigerman123 wrote...

You've got to remember in this discussion that regardless of the trade deficits or surpluses that individual countries have, in aggregate our world is in balance with itself (if you ignore the accounting errors which say it isn't), we don't need to import machine tools or grain from alpha centuri to survive, we can do so ourselves. Why is there a claim that the denizens of these worlds would be unable to do so? It's a completely false analogy to compare a planet to a country.

Because there would be a tendency for planets to similarly specialize, to some degree, in tradable goods, just like countries do now.  Thus, it's not really a false analogy.  There was a time when the US was self-sufficient it much of its consumer goods, but this erroded as there was greater specialization due to declines in the cost of trade.  In a galaxy with low trade costs enabled by the mass relays, there's no reason to believe that such specialization wouldn't similarly occur.  After several decades of increasing trade, the US lacks the capacity (both physical and technical) to instantly produce some goods.  The planets of ME would be in a similar predicament - they'll need to relearn how to producer certain necessities, which takes time at the very least.

Trade generally arises on our planet through the uneven distribution
of resources, or from a country specialising in a certain good and
achieving a comparative advantage in through economies of scale etc, but
any solar system would likely have a surplus in any factor of
production such as raw materials or land, so trade would arise from
asymmetric costs, not from need and in the case of most good
transportation costs would negate the possibility

Relative factor abundance is one of several reasons why specialization of production may occur.  The key is relative factor abundance, not absolute factor abundance, however.  The fact that a planet may have more than enough resources to produce an item doesn't necessarily mean they will in the face the ability to trade.  If that product is necessary for life and requires infratructure or lead time to produce, then said planet is in trouble.

And, of course, then there are the planets that simply lack the resources necessary to produce certain life-necessary goods outright.  For those places, trade is an absolute necessity, not just a welfare-maximizing convenience.

[Jassu1979]

Cypher_CS, just for the record: do you actually think that Earth would still be capable of sustaining itself after being devastated like that?
My mother's family had to survive in the rubble left by WW2, and if it hadn't been for external support, they would have starved in the first winter. Even as it was, things were extremely tough, and my oldest aunt suffered from the medical long-term consequences of advanced starvation throughout most of her adult life. And that in a country that was (at that point) mostly dedicated to agriculture, with all of the allies making an effort at supporting the civillian populace.

Now, we can assume that technological advances render many things somewhat easier in the ME-universe. But when the Earth we see at the end of ME3 is cut off from the rest of the galaxy - the consequences for the war-torn regions would be beyond devastating.

[MegaSovereign]

This is why I like the control ending.

The Citadel is intact a long with its resources.

[ArchDuck]

Come on guys, they can just ship supplies to the planets that need them through FTL travel. Who care if it gets there 2 or more years late? Food isn't that important right?

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

As you may note, from reading my replies, I never said there wouldn't be damage or that all will be rosey.
There will be damage. There will be climate change. But not a nuclear winter.

Because?

Also, just for the sake of an accurate argument:
-You don't know the force with which the shots of these main guns hit. Not beyond knowing "it's powerful".

Once again the codex > you.

Dreadnoughts are kilometer-long capital ships mounting heavy, long-range
firepower. They are only deployed for the most vital missions. A
dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts
range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of
commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of
accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3%
the speed of light) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy
of about 38 kilotons of TNT, about two and a half times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.

-We do know ships can survive re-entry, but that hugely depends on angle of approach, if all the Sci-Fiish force fields and mass effect fields and what not have failed. I'm assuming they fail, otherwise there wouldn't be much need for the ship to drop from orbit.

The mass amount of debris raining down, intact or not, will not be healthy.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 juin 2012 - 04:08 .

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

@Angry one,
The clouds are on fire? Or are those just fires?

.....

Who cares about the clouds?

Yes, it's wrecked. But it's not beyond repair.

You have absolutely NO evidence to say that it is.
So, stop headcannoning yourself (whatever the hell that means).

It's not beyond repair if the required help is available.

[ArchDuck]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Cypher_CS, just for the record: do you actually think that Earth would still be capable of sustaining itself after being devastated like that?
My mother's family had to survive in the rubble left by WW2, and if it hadn't been for external support, they would have starved in the first winter. Even as it was, things were extremely tough, and my oldest aunt suffered from the medical long-term consequences of advanced starvation throughout most of her adult life. And that in a country that was (at that point) mostly dedicated to agriculture, with all of the allies making an effort at supporting the civillian populace.

Now, we can assume that technological advances render many things somewhat easier in the ME-universe. But when the Earth we see at the end of ME3 is cut off from the rest of the galaxy - the consequences for the war-torn regions would be beyond devastating.

Besides the Reaper damage don't forget all the friendly fire from the last space battle. All those rounds that missed the Reapers (or went through them) would strike the earth with devastating  impacts.

Ninja'd by Angry ^

Modifié par ArchDuck, 03 juin 2012 - 04:12 .

[o Ventus]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Now, people have talked a lot about the destruction of the relays, pondering whether their destruction would obliterate the systems they were in, hypothesizing about the potential of re-building them, arguing about whether or not the fleet in Sol system can return home, etc.

But I think few people have actually considered what cutting the supply lines like that actually means: it doesn't really matter whether the species of the galaxy will eventually be able to invent a technology that fills the gap - right there and then, it means that billions throughout the war-torn galaxy WILL die, even if the explosions were harmless.

No relays - no interstellar traffic. No interstellar traffic - no supply lines. No supply lines - billions of casualties. The worst thing that can happen to a disaster area is being cut off - and that is exactly what happens to pretty much every planet in the Mass Effect universe.

Only if you're assuming each homeworld and populated colony is scraping for food scraps. It would be pants-on-head retarded for a populated world to not have enough supplies in case a supply run is off schedule. You're also making it sound like each organism can't go a day without food, when that simply isn't true.

FTL still exists, and knowing how a number of Alliance and turian ships have the Tantalus drive core, the humans are fine. The turians can travel with the quarians, as the quarians and their liveships can produce dextro food. Simply drop the turians off on Palaven or Menae with enough food to last them a few months (Or possibly a whole liveship or two) and the turians can start growing their own food on native soil. The quarians would then simply go back to Rannoch.

The asari may have a problem, since Thessia is very far away, but the trip can be made, and they are supposed to be the most advanced, so it's entirely possible they have stronger eezo cores than the other species. The salarians can travel with them, since Sur'Kesh is in the same direction as Thessia, but not as far away.

The krogan are honestly the only ones I see having problems. Either they eat everyone, or they sustain losses due to infighting. Only the males are soldiers (and only soldiers are on Earth), and krogan can't reproduce asexually.

The geth, of course, don't need food or water, and can travel back to Rannoch perfectly fine, most likely taking some quarians with them o their ships, allowing the quarians to donate a liveship of 2 to the turians.

It isn't as much an apocalypse as you're painting it to be.

[Omanisat]

Cypher_CS wrote...

As you may note, from reading my replies, I never said there wouldn't be damage or that all will be rosey.
There will be damage. There will be climate change. But not a nuclear winter.

Also, just for the sake of an accurate argument:
-You don't know the force with which the shots of these main guns hit. Not beyond knowing "it's powerful".
-We do know ships can survive re-entry, but that hugely depends on angle of approach, if all the Sci-Fiish force fields and mass effect fields and what not have failed. I'm assuming they fail, otherwise there wouldn't be much need for the ship to drop from orbit.

Actually we do know how powerful those weapons are:
38 kilotons for an Alliance dreadnough, likely similar for other races
141 kilotons for Reaper Destroyers
461 kilotons for Reaper Capital Ships.

Knock off 20% for having to travel through the atmosphere and you know exactly the force each missed shot impacts with.

[The Angry One]

o Ventus wrote...

It isn't as much an apocalypse as you're painting it to be.

Of course it is! Even your naive rose-tinted scenario is describing a Fallout level society.

[Averdi]

o Ventus wrote...
Only if you're assuming each homeworld and populated colony is scraping for food scraps. It would be pants-on-head retarded for a populated world to not have enough supplies in case a supply run is off schedule. You're also making it sound like each organism can't go a day without food, when that simply isn't true.

FTL still exists, and knowing how a number of Alliance and turian ships have the Tantalus drive core, the humans are fine. The turians can travel with the quarians, as the quarians and their liveships can produce dextro food. Simply drop the turians off on Palaven or Menae with enough food to last them a few months (Or possibly a whole liveship or two) and the turians can start growing their own food on native soil. The quarians would then simply go back to Rannoch.

The asari may have a problem, since Thessia is very far away, but the trip can be made, and they are supposed to be the most advanced, so it's entirely possible they have stronger eezo cores than the other species. The salarians can travel with them, since Sur'Kesh is in the same direction as Thessia, but not as far away.

The krogan are honestly the only ones I see having problems. Either they eat everyone, or they sustain losses due to infighting. Only the males are soldiers (and only soldiers are on Earth), and krogan can't reproduce asexually.

The geth, of course, don't need food or water, and can travel back to Rannoch perfectly fine, most likely taking some quarians with them o their ships, allowing the quarians to donate a liveship of 2 to the turians.

It isn't as much an apocalypse as you're painting it to be.

People won't starve in a day, no, but do you really think that all poplulated worlds are self-sufficient with respect to food production?  That isn't true of countries on Earth now.  If mile high walls went up around every country in the world tomorrow, there'd be plenty of starvation, not just in traditionally poorest countries, but in China, Japan, and probably even some European countries.  And there'd be severe shortages in even the US for some goods.  People living on traditional agriculture or garden worlds will be flush with food, but may lack medicies, heavy tech goods, etc.; people on more industrialized planets will likley face food shortages.

Re-allocating a large amount of resources from industry to agriculture, assuming a planet can even do it, would be almost certain to last longer than any stockpiles, and a lot of people would die in the meantime.  For planets/bases that don't have the ability to switch to agriculture production, almost everyone will starve - Jacob's father was ahead of the curve.

I agree that the quarians are perhaps in the best shape as they're either: 1) at Earth with their liveships, of 2) on a cleaned and vibrant Rannoch, thanks to the geth.

[The Angry One]

^ That's assuming the liveships survived.

They're gigantic unarmoured targets that are so vulnerable that Geth fighter squadrons are considered a legitimate threat to them. They have heavy weaponry, sure. But how many shots will they get off before the Reapers go "Those giant things are hurting us. Make them die."

[o Ventus]

The Angry One wrote...

^ That's assuming the liveships survived.

They're gigantic unarmoured targets that are so vulnerable that Geth fighter squadrons are considered a legitimate threat to them. They have heavy weaponry, sure. But how many shots will they get off before the Reapers go "Those giant things are hurting us. Make them die."

It would be kind of stupid for the quarians to send their sources of food at Cthulhu robots.

[bleetman]

o Ventus wrote...

It would be kind of stupid for the quarians to send their sources of food at Cthulhu robots.

Yet they do, because they're visibly present in the final armada.

I suppose they could've flown to Earth then sat out the fight, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. If they're not going to be used, why take them at all?

[Wulfram]

I'd guess that most clusters wouldn't be so dependant on outside food that they'd starve without outside food. Bulk transport of food doesn't seem like a particularly profitable use of space travel - some might not be wholly self supporting and you'd obviously lose access to your favourite luxuries, but I'd guess most would be able to get by with rationing.

The worlds which have seen more heavy fighting like Earth or Palaven are a more complex situation. The balance of devastation to depopulation is something that can only be speculated about.

edit:  I'd assume that the liveships were present in the fight, though no longer with a large civilian population on board.  They were probably deployed cautiously as long range "artillery", but that would be because with likely poor shields, armour and point defence they'd die really quickly in close combat.

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 juin 2012 - 04:44 .