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[Soja57]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Soja57 wrote...

Turian Shotgun finished.

Freaking awesome, Bro. I love Gears of War.

Me too. I love the skill factor involved in order to own in that game, and wanted to incorporate some of them into my weapons. What do you think of the variable pellet spread mechanic I came up with?

[guitarsniper]

I'd like to see the following:
M-109 Thunder Assault Rifle
This is a five-barreled assault rifle, which fires five rounds simultaneously. From four smaller barrels it fires four relatively light, fast moving projectiles, while from the central barrel it fires one larger, slower projectile. The goal of this firing system is for the four smaller projectiles to disrupt shields and barriers, allowing the heavy projectile to directly damage the target

basically this is a screw you shield gate gun

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

Turian Shotgun finished.

Shotgun that has an extremely wide pellet spread (wider than any current shotgun), but can charge up to tighten the spread of pellets for longer range engagements (minimum spread at max charge should = Eviscerator accuracy). Charging up does not equal more damage, but it increases the chance of each individual pellet to hit targets, therefore potential damage at range increases. Firing in default firemode decimates any enemy up close, but if you miss (though near impossible too) or use it for beyond close range, it should feel punishing. Undecided as to give it only one shot per mag or more.

For anyone who has played Gearsof War 3, think of the Sawed-off Shotgun, except that it can charge up to equal the range of the Gnasher or even Retro Lancer. This is perhaps the easiest way to explain how this weapon works.

@Soja57 - You know, I thought about that very same concept (accuracy charge up instead of damage charge up) awhile back.  I agree that its a very nice idea, but my only little qualm would be that it wouldn't necessarily fit the Turian Soldier well.  That's a very minor note, however, as it would fit a Turian Sentinel just fine.

I think you're being too stingy with the accuracy bonus.  Why should someone pay that much time charging and risk being out of cover for Eviscerator level accuracy?  If anything, it should have (at max charge) Graal level accuracy.  Base can be as terrible as you'd like it.  Graal/GPS level weight, imo.

As for clip size, that's often time dependant upon damage.  Since damage potential, in this case, is directly related to accuracy, it could have a reasonably sized clip(probably three).  Might even be able to make it do as much as the Graal/Wraith.  I don't think that'd be especially overpowered due to the charge up time to slow down rate of fire at long range.  This weapon would definitely be another Infiltrator gun, though, since you can start the charge, cloak, shoot, shoot again immediately to break cloak.  Close range devestation.  Pretty useful for other classes too, have to say.

Modifié par Nydus Templar, 11 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[Soja57]

Nydus Templar wrote...

I think you're being too stingy with the accuracy bonus.  Why should someone pay that much time charging and risk being out of cover for Eviscerator level accuracy?  If anything, it should have (at max charge) Graal level accuracy.  Base can be as terrible as you'd like it.  Graal/GPS level weight, imo.

This is all purely dependant on the weapon's damage, base accuracy, and charge time. I intended the weapon to deal equal or greater damage than the Claymore, but with extremely horrible accuracy. But being able to snipe Graal style with this much firepower? Perhaps if we both elaborate more on the damage, base and charged accuracy, and charge time, we can come to a more balanced conclusion.

I'll try to post an in-depth analysis.

[Soja57]

I wanted to create a versatile shotgun that acts like the Reegar (powerful but usable only at close range) but when charged, is able to hit enemies at a fair distance. This picture compares each shotgun's crosshairs on a target within 16 meters. Variation 2 of the turian shotgun (3x Claymore crosshair) is what I'm aiming for, as it streches wider than a human target at 16 meters. This forces you to step near or into melee range in order to hit your targets, unless they are a Brute or you plan on hitting multiple enemies.

Variation 1 (2x Claymore crosshair) is what I'd imagine the shotgun with a smart choke attachment.

Without the attachment and charged up, the turian shotgun should be similar to Evicerator.

Putting a smart choke on and charged up, the shotgun now should equal the Graal.

Any thoughts?

[Soja57]

Nydus Templar wrote...

@Soja57 - You know, I thought about that very same concept (accuracy charge up instead of damage charge up) awhile back.  I agree that its a very nice idea, but my only little qualm would be that it wouldn't necessarily fit the Turian Soldier well.  That's a very minor note, however, as it would fit a Turian Sentinel just fine.

About the Turian Soldier...With the accuracy bonus of Marksman, you can increase the accuracy, therefore increase the chance of pellets hitting your target. Since each pellet delivers a powerful punch, this actually synergizes well with accuracy upgrades. But if you play as a pure close quarters Human Soldier, Adrenaline Rush is better in that you will demolish Atlases and Brutes with the shotgun's already high damage output.

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

Nydus Templar wrote...

@Soja57 - You know, I thought about that very same concept (accuracy charge up instead of damage charge up) awhile back.  I agree that its a very nice idea, but my only little qualm would be that it wouldn't necessarily fit the Turian Soldier well.  That's a very minor note, however, as it would fit a Turian Sentinel just fine.

About the Turian Soldier...With the accuracy bonus of Marksman, you can increase the accuracy, therefore increase the chance of pellets hitting your target. Since each pellet delivers a powerful punch, this actually synergizes well with accuracy upgrades. But if you play as a pure close quarters Human Soldier, Adrenaline Rush is better in that you will demolish Atlases and Brutes with the shotgun's already high damage output.

The only problem with the accuracy bonus of Marksman is that the power has a limited duration.  The weapon requires at least 1-2 seconds to charge up in order to reach full accuracy (since the charge time would likely be similar to other charge up weapons).  That means you'd only be able to squeeze a few shots out of each cool down, all to gain a little bit of accuracy.  If you're going to use a shotgun with Marksmanship, it'd be better to have a larger clip, static accuracy (preferrably decent), and a rate of fire to increase.  This weapon simply won't take full advantage of it.  Its not to say a Turian Soldier can't make use of it, going Prox Mines and Conc Shot, or just Prox mines as I usually do, but Marksmanship won't be of use to the weapon.

As for the accuracy circles you posted, those honestly don't look right by comparison to how those weapons are currently in multiplayer.  I'm trying to get screen captures of each of those weapons (for the sake of argument, with Smart Choke V on all of them) in multiplayer.  For instance, the Eviscerator X with Smart Choke 5 is significantly larger than the circle posted in your example.  The Claymore X is also quite huge by comparison to the one you posted(easily the size of a half dollar on screen).

When I post them, I hope you'll see what I mean when I say 'only the accuracy of the Eviscerator'.

[Stance Punk]

They'll find ancient weaponry, the automatic Kalashnikov hailing from earth.

[Soja57]

Nydus Templar wrote...

The only problem with the accuracy bonus of Marksman is that the power has a limited duration.  The weapon requires at least 1-2 seconds to charge up in order to reach full accuracy (since the charge time would likely be similar to other charge up weapons).  That means you'd only be able to squeeze a few shots out of each cool down, all to gain a little bit of accuracy.  If you're going to use a shotgun with Marksmanship, it'd be better to have a larger clip, static accuracy (preferrably decent), and a rate of fire to increase.  This weapon simply won't take full advantage of it.  Its not to say a Turian Soldier can't make use of it, going Prox Mines and Conc Shot, or just Prox mines as I usually do, but Marksmanship won't be of use to the weapon.

The thing is though, you wouldn't need to charge that long (or even not at all) if you already have Marksman and Smart Choke to improve your accuracy, unless your trying to snipe someone across the map, but in that case, your doing something this weapon wasn't meant to do. Therefore you can use the default firing mode to maintain a fast firerate, plus the addition of Marksman's firerate increase.

But I guess that's the fun of ME3, isn't it? Figuring out what weapon and power combinations work really well, and maybe finding others that didn't turn out as your expected.

And maybe I should double check my circles, just in case. Singleplayer weapons might work differently than Multiplayer weapons.

[Nydus Templar]

Blech, now I need to know how to post images.  Meh.  Lost alot of writing.

Modifié par Nydus Templar, 11 juin 2012 - 07:35 .

[Soja57]

Nydus Templar wrote...

Blech, now I need to know how to post images.  Meh.  Lost alot of writing.

1. go to imgur.com
2. drag your image onto the site
3. start upload
4. Copy BBCode from the right
5. Paste onto your post

[Soja57]

And I've confirmed that my image is accurate. Maybe the oversized lines were a little overdone, and were throwing off your observations. I can post another, cleaner, Multiplayer version if you'd like.

BTW, I play on 1680 x 1050 if that matters.

Modifié par Soja57, 11 juin 2012 - 07:45 .

[Nydus Templar]

That would affect the perception of it, yes, I play on 1280x720. Pic should be up in a moment or two.

[Soja57]

Meanwhile, what do you think of the weapon aesthetically?

[Nydus Templar]

Alright, so, as you can see from my perspective at least, the Claymore and Eviscerator (both X, both with Choke) are not terribly different.  Now, I had written up something on this, but terrible lack of preview on this forum ruined it.  I'll try to salvage it from memory as best as I can.

Basically, my viewpoint on the matter appears to have been different from your intention.  Let me explain my viewpoint.

Calling it a verstile shotgun, to me, meant that it was usable both in close range (Read: Claymore Effective) and Long Range (Read: Graal Effective).  The balance was the charge up requirement, which if memory serves is something like 2 seconds.  That's two seconds you have to spend out of cover, not shooting, and does not include target acquisition.  Balancing this weapon as an alternative to the Graal and GPS puts it squarely into a heavy hitting category, giving it its own strength and weaknesses to compensate, without pushing it up into the Claymore range.

The reason why I wasn't going to push it up into the Claymore range was that, no matter what drawback you've got, if you have a weapon which is more accurate than the Claymore, but has the same damage, you've just made the Claymore more or less obsolete.  Assuming that the clip size is the same (one and one), and the reload speed is the same (the Claymore reload animation is the slowest possible for a shotgun), than the only difference is how long it takes to implement the shot from the Claymore.  For Infiltrators, they can charge then cloak, so the charge time is a non-issue, but accuracy makes for cleaner headshots.  For Vanguards, they'll already be point black coming out of a charge with a three second window to shoot, so the accuracy is a non-issue, but when they aren't charging, you've just given them the same damage at greater range.  For these reasons, making it Claymore power is strictly a no-go.

The Graal, the GPS, and the Crusader all have strengths and weaknesses which can be shuffled and worked around to add this new weapon in without making the others obsolete.  Using the Graal as a basis for it serves a fine purpose first because the Graal is already a very accurate shotgun, so you know the results of having an accurate shot isn't going to be very detrimental.

The GPS and Graal both have travel times which make placing shots without first creating a shot of opportunity very challenging, but this gun, operating with near instant projectile impacts, does not have that drawback, and conversely, cannot be charged for higher damage.  Additionally, the Graal and GPS cannot shoot thru Guardian Shields and light cover, but this weapon will be able to with the Shredder mod, giving it full use of all mods instead of only most of them.

The Crusader is extremely accurate, so much so that it suffers for it when trying get headshots, but when you succeed with it, the whole damage is applied to head in a single, glorious slug which automatically penetrates Guardian Shields and light cover.  This weapon would be balanced around the fact that it can more readily catch targets in the head for effective headshots, but some damage will naturally miss or hit the body and count for less, and it can also bypass shield gate like Graal, while Crusader cannot.

It would actually probably have to have a higher damage per shot than the Graal/GPS uncharged, in order to compensate for not being able to charge at all.  This means that the other weapons won't continue to surpass it either, but rather make it a fair trade off.  Additionally, the Graal ignores armor, and this weapon cannot, meaning that weapon damage buff is in order.  The GPS has rounds which track slightly, making it easier to hit targets, again, this is literally a ranged burst so you either hit or you don't.

Think that was all of it, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Modifié par Nydus Templar, 11 juin 2012 - 08:12 .

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

Meanwhile, what do you think of the weapon aesthetically?

Aesthetically, the weapon looks very good.  I can really see the Turian architecture, and it melds nicely with the shotgun profile.  I'm not sure I'd have a crossbar in the trigger area, as Turians (with two long fingers) might have issues getting them in there reliable to pull the trigger (same with Quarians).  If you look at most weapons which are more or less designed with all species in mind (Tempest I think is a good example of this), they have specifically shaped grips to work with both Levino and Dextro wielders.

Also, still a metric ton better than I could do.

Edit: Of course, looking at the Phaeston, I guess they did include that.  Not sure what they were thinking, but yeah, so, crossbar is good.

Modifié par Nydus Templar, 11 juin 2012 - 08:23 .

[Soja57]

Interesting analysis...

Shall we dive into specific stats now?
*This is assuming using my crosshairs, feel free to change these

Damage: 125 (156.25) *Between Graal and Claymore
Weight: 2.25 - 1.7
Stat Damage: 1000 (1250)
Rate of Fire: 48?
Capacity: 3
Max Spare Ammo: 9-18
Reload: 2.27 (Disciple Reload animation)

The damage is fairly high due to the inaccuracy and having to charge in order to deal damage at range. It also slightly weighs more than the Graal, but less than the Claymore. One can argue that the rate of fire breaks the balance, but also keep in mind that the max spare ammo is severely limited in order to offset this. This is similar to the Harrier's high power, low spare ammo.

EDIT: Maybe the damage is too high?

Modifié par Soja57, 11 juin 2012 - 08:46 .

[Soja57]

Here is a good comparison between the crosshairs of each weapon. The darker version of each respective color is with Smart Choke V, and the lighter version are without. I chose Firebase White, as most are familiar with the distance of the map.

The Turian shotgun's charged without smart choke equals Eviscerator w/smart choke (inner red ring).
Charged + smart choke = Graal without smart choke (outer yellow ring).

Modifié par Soja57, 11 juin 2012 - 08:54 .

[Nydus Templar]

Unfortunately, I'm not terribly up to day on the stats currently, I haven't had a chance to dig into them to begin to understand. I'm not terribly sure why the damage and stat damage has two values, is it close range versus long range? I thought values in parenthesis were before and after charge. If that's the case, then they should be identical as there's no climb in damage. If weight is on par with the Graal, fine by me, and rate of fire can be as high as the Graal. I'm fine with the relatively low reserve ammo, its good as a counter balance, and adds value to the extra reserve ammo mod.

The rate of fire really won't be an issue if its anything like the Graal, especially for this weapon. The fact that its recoil and low accuracy without charging means a follow up shot, no matter how fast, is only effective at point blank. This is different than the Graal or GPS, who both have an advantage in this catagory, where the accuracy is static and can do a full charge followed immediately by a quick shot for added burst.

Basically, it can be either a close range saturation weapon, or a headshot machine, but not both at the same time effectively. You 'could' move into close range for a head shot and then follow it with a body shot to finish the job, but the others will still do it better due to damage increase.

[Soja57]

Nydus Templar wrote...

Unfortunately, I'm not terribly up to day on the stats currently, I haven't had a chance to dig into them to begin to understand. I'm not terribly sure why the damage and stat damage has two values, is it close range versus long range? I thought values in parenthesis were before and after charge. If that's the case, then they should be identical as there's no climb in damage. If weight is on par with the Graal, fine by me, and rate of fire can be as high as the Graal. I'm fine with the relatively low reserve ammo, its good as a counter balance, and adds value to the extra reserve ammo mod.

Damage: 125 (156.25) <- Damage of each individual pellet; First value is level I, second value is level X
- this value is what armor damage reduction uses
Stat Damage: 1000 (1250) <- Damage of sum of all pellets; First value is level I, second value is level X

So do you think that it is balanced then?

Modifié par Soja57, 11 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

Here is a good comparison between the crosshairs of each weapon. The darker version of each respective color is with Smart Choke V, and the lighter version are without. I chose Firebase White, as most are familiar with the distance of the map.

The Turian shotgun's charged without smart choke equals Eviscerator w/smart choke (inner red ring).
Charged + smart choke = Graal without smart choke (outer yellow ring).

Perspective achieved (somewhat).  Not sure I'm totally digging the base accuracy being so low.  Being Claymore before and Graal after seems to feel right as its two established sizes which are well known.  An area that wide, with eight projectiles, means that using it at all at any distance but point blank would be prohibitive.

It'll be more or less too much of a drawback as the weapon becomes implausible for anyone but Vanguards or Infiltrators to use because only they can freely charge without concern for cover, and get stuck in fast enough to avoid death to use it at melee range.  Just from a Gold perspective, it would really limit who'd want this weapon if they couldn't use it as a close to near midrange skirmishing weapon at all, only either point blank or full charged for headshots.  I know you were going for that, but being a Claymore in accuracy without the Claymore damage to back it up should be sufficient motivation to get closer or get charging.

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

Nydus Templar wrote...
Stuff.

Damage: 125 (156.25) <- Damage of each individual pellet; First value is level I, second value is level X
- this value is what armor damage reduction uses
Stat Damage: 1000 (1250) <- Damage of sum of all pellets; First value is level I, second value is level X

So do you think that it is balanced then?

If the damage value is roughly equidistant between the uncharged Graal and the Claymore or charged Graal (whichever is lower), than it should, in theory, be acceptable.  Thanks for the explanation on that, though, good stuff.  I'd need to do a full comparison and really work the numbers (not to mention expose it to playtesting) before I'd give it a definitive anything, but its a fair start.  If its damage is the same or greater than a fully charged Graal or GPS, than we've a problem.

[Soja57]

I appreciate your in-depth analysis on my proposed accuracy. Although I do see your point, do keep in mind that the damage value is fairly high. This means that even though only 1/4 to 1/2 of all pellets may hit, each pellet deals considerable damage. Factor in that you can fire three shots before reloading, and the drawback isn't as bad as you think.

I know that the Claymore's accuracy is perhaps the best place for new shotguns to approach, but I wanted to create a weapon that steps outside of that accuracy (seeing as many shotguns share this same accuracy).

And the damage is just slightly stronger than a charged Graal, but severely weaker than a Claymore. The damage is greater than a charged Graal because the Graal ignores armor damage reduction, has innate sniper (well, at least near) accuracy without charging, faster rate of fire, and decent spare ammo capacity.

The damage is weaker than the Claymore due to having 3 shots per clip, easy to use up close, and able to charge up for great accuracy (therefore more potential headshots).

I think the damage value is high enough that the accuracy and slow rate of fire offset this, but low enough that Claymore users can still potentially outperform (especially with reload cancel) and that the Graal's insane accuracy allows for most pellets to get headshots, dealing more potential damage and ignoring armor damage reduction.

The GPS is already powerful enough, ignoring armor damage reduction, homing shots even at sniper range, and being able to charge up to even outperform this turian shotgun in terms of damage output.

[Soja57]

Hmm, perhaps I can modify some shotguns via Coalesced.bin to test out these values? Well, It's not giving me an unfair advantage, seeing as this gun seems fairly balanced. If it does, I'll probably just give it a slight nerf anyway. And I'll probably just test it out in private match. Solo...

Maybe I should test these out within the singleplayer on Insanity, just to be safe. Should be fun but challenging test. Will try return with my findings.

Modifié par Soja57, 11 juin 2012 - 03:19 .

[Nydus Templar]

Soja57 wrote...

I appreciate your in-depth analysis on my proposed accuracy. Although I do see your point, do keep in mind that the damage value is fairly high. This means that even though only 1/4 to 1/2 of all pellets may hit, each pellet deals considerable damage. Factor in that you can fire three shots before reloading, and the drawback isn't as bad as you think.

I know that the Claymore's accuracy is perhaps the best place for new shotguns to approach, but I wanted to create a weapon that steps outside of that accuracy (seeing as many shotguns share this same accuracy).

And the damage is just slightly stronger than a charged Graal, but severely weaker than a Claymore. The damage is greater than a charged Graal because the Graal ignores armor damage reduction, has innate sniper (well, at least near) accuracy without charging, faster rate of fire, and decent spare ammo capacity.

The damage is weaker than the Claymore due to having 3 shots per clip, easy to use up close, and able to charge up for great accuracy (therefore more potential headshots).

I think the damage value is high enough that the accuracy and slow rate of fire offset this, but low enough that Claymore users can still potentially outperform (especially with reload cancel) and that the Graal's insane accuracy allows for most pellets to get headshots, dealing more potential damage and ignoring armor damage reduction.

The GPS is already powerful enough, ignoring armor damage reduction, homing shots even at sniper range, and being able to charge up to even outperform this turian shotgun in terms of damage output.

The ignoring armor part only really applies to armored targets.  When not used against such targets, it would be straight away more powerful than the Graal without the drawbacks of travel distance or the way those flechettes work.  Also, does it list in the game files or stats that the GPS ignores damage reduction from armor?  I was unaware of that.

While I do think the charge up for accuracy is a significant enough drawback to warrant it doing more than the Graal or GPS without charging, I don't think its enough to do more than the Graal or GPS when charged.  Those drawbacks disappear when fully charged with this weapon, whereas the drawbacks still exist with the Graal and GPS.  In a way, they're always paying for their benefits, even charged up, where as charging this weapon up removes the inherent flaw of low accuracy, and turns it into a long range devestator.  I also wonder how the damage compares to the Wraith as of current multiplayer.  If its damage approaches its power, than we have a little issue, especially since it won't take the full two seconds of charging to reach that level of accuracy.

My main concern is that, by making the weapon stronger and more reliable, you effectively remove the fine balance presented by those weapons.  I don't think this weapon will honestly replace the GPS at any rate, simply due to the auto tracking rounds and its general reputation like you said, but the Graal (while being a very good shotgun) still has a negative reputation given the learning curve involved in using it.  I'd also want to check on the damage per hit on the Crusader versus the Graal's potential, to see if there's a balance there.  I might be overly cautious on this, and perhaps without warrant, but its better to be conservative and then buff it later, than to be overzealous and then nerf it afterwards.