21 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

Let's assume for a moment that we have two Daggers. They're both Veridium, so their Base Forms look like this:

Damage: 5.2
Critical Chance: 3.90%
Armor Penetration: 5.8%
Strength Modifier: 0.85

Now, the first one has a +4 Damage enchantment, while the second has a +4 Attack enchantment. Which one would do more damage?

Also, these weapons don't actually exist as far as I'm aware. I'm just trying to figure out which boost is better.

[Bullets McDeath]

Well, the +4 Damage one will do more damage. However, the +4 Attack one will hit more often. So it really depends on your stats and what you're trying to hit, if you are trying to boil it down to DPS.

[swk3000]

Man, why can't they ever make things easy for me to decide? Thanks for the info. It's been eating at me for a while now.

[XOGHunter246]

i rather hit more often then do more damage and miss as missing alot can make you dead

[Skellimancer]

Place attack dagger in offhand? it affects both weapons.

[swk3000]

Yeah, I have to agree.

[Bullets McDeath]

The simplest expression of the theory is that basically, if your character has a low Dexterity and/or attack score and is frequently missing their target, +4 attack would counteract that and be *likely* more beneficial to your DPS. If your character hits often enough but has low Str and isn't doing much damage, look to the +4 damage to be overall more helpful.



What fries my noodle is trying to figure out the advantages and disadvantages of weapons with lower damage but higher armor penetration. There's always something else to consider in this game lol.

[swk3000]

In my experience, higher armor penetration = higher damage. I was using a Two-Handed Melee DPS character in the Korcari Wilds, and I'd equipped the Chasind Flatblade, as it was better than the Greatsword I had. I got curious, and equipped the Chasind Crusher you get from the Chasind Cache quest, and imagine my surprise when I got more damage out of it, despite the -5 Attack enchantment it has. Later testing between a Silverite Greatsword and a Silverite Maul proved this out: Armor Penetration is where it's at. The more you have, the more damage you're doing, even if every other stat is inferior.

[fro7k]

Armour penetration is just as good as damage against any monster who's armour is equal to or exceeds your armour penetration score.



I may not have the numbers right yet, but I believe the chance of hitting is (54 + your attack score - opponents defense score)% chance of landing a hit. +4 attack is an extra 4% chance of hitting any monster, except for ones whos defense surpasses all your effective attacking chances.

[XOGHunter246]

my rouge uses axes instead of swords better armor penetration look like it does more damage

[swk3000]

I'm running a Rogue right now, and having them use anything besides daggers just doesn't fit for me.

[XOGHunter246]

when they patch 360 version i have dagger using rouge in the making they guy as my avatar

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[fro7k]

fro7k wrote...

Armour penetration is just as good as damage against any monster who's armour is equal to or exceeds your armour penetration score.

I should add that, while I don't know for sure, I'm guessing monsters scaled up a few levels will always feature a decent amount of armour, and therefore armour penetration is nearly always as good as damage.  It doesn't come in high amounts anyway.  If armour penetration > opponents armour, the difference is ap wasted.

[AKOdin]

Sadly, daggers in the hands of a human just look silly after a little while. So small...

@fro7k: As this game doesn't cap attack and defense at 100, calling them "percentages" can be confusing.

Simple version- a +4 is NOT a +4% chance to attack... the equation depends entirely on the defense of the creature you are attacking. It might be useless on a white mob but vital when attacking a rev at low levels.

[fro7k]

@fro7k: As this game doesn't cap attack and defense at 100, calling them "percentages" can be confusing.

I don't see how.  You can have  >100% chance to hit and that's still 100%, and <=0% and it is still 0%.

Simple version- a +4 is NOT a +4% chance to attack... the equation depends entirely on the defense of the creature you are attacking. It might be useless on a white mob but vital when attacking a rev at low levels.

Yes it is, except where the +4 exceeds 100%.

Chance to attack is effective_attack_score-effective_defense_score.

An effective attack of 50 against an effective defense of 20 would be a 30% chance of hitting.

[Matthew Young CT]

fro7k wrote...
Yes it is, except where the +4 exceeds 100%.

Chance to attack is effective_attack_score-effective_defense_score.

An effective attack of 50 against an effective defense of 20 would be a 30% chance of hitting.

That it acts as a percent in most circumstances does not make it one. Why muddy the water needlessly?

eta: misread OP.

short answer: +damage unless you have a dire, dire lack of attack, which is very unlikely.

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:39 .

[fro7k]

That it acts as a percent in most circumstances does not make it one. Why muddy the water needlessly?

You said it yourself, because it acts like that in most circumstances.

[Matthew Young CT]

fro7k wrote...

That it acts as a percent in most circumstances does not make it one. Why muddy the water needlessly?

You said it yourself, because it acts like that in most circumstances.

Yes. Most. Why not simply say that instead of pretending it is a percent?

Pop quiz: What is your chance of being hit if a critter with attack:50 attacks a character with defense:100 and displacement:20%?

[fro7k]

Yes. Most. Why not simply say that instead of pretending it is a percent?

I did say there were exceptions from the very beginning, and It IS a percent even when there are exceptions.  The chance of hitting your opponent exists on a continuum that can be expressed as a percentage.  It goes without saying that there is no >100% chance, so if your attack score pushes past 100% chance it has no improvement.  If anything using percentages is superior to any other form of expression since it contains this implicit fact.

Pop quiz: What is your chance of being hit if a critter with attack:50 attacks a character with defense:100 and displacement:20%?

Pop quiz: Try to stop nit-picking.

[DragoonKain3]

Seriously, how many abilities in the game give you displacement? Or anything that modifies to hit chance outside of attack/defense ratings? Next to none, that's what. Even being paralyzed/sleeped does not all of a sudden ignore hit rolls.



As such, an increase in +attack is as good as +% increase to hit. And unlike vast majority of games, it's actually a 1:1 ratio, so one could pretty much equate them. Just like in DnD where you can either say its a +1 to hit or a +5% increase chance to hit, you can do the same thing here by saying either you get +1 to attack or +1% increased chance to hit. To-mei-to, to-mah-to, exact same difference.



As for the discussion on hand, you won't even hit near 100% chance to hit on attack rolls in nightmare, as even ~100 attack rating still only becomes ~70% chance to hit. As such, +attack would almost never result in wasted dps; the only question to ask is if increasing chance to hit results in higher overall dps than increasing damage per hit.



In general, fast weapons gain more from +damage, while slow weapons gain more from +attack, so choose your equips accordingly.

[Silensfurtim]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

In general, fast weapons gain more from +damage, while slow weapons gain more from +attack, so choose your equips accordingly.

I agree.

[AKOdin]

Maybe I'm misreading this, but doesn't the info below mean that a final attack value (ie, after equip and effects and diff modifiers) of 51 will ALWAYS result in a hit when compared to a final defense value of 50?

// -------------------------------------------------------------------------

// A hit is successful if the attack rating exceeds the defense rating

// -------------------------------------------------------------------------

if (RandomFloat()*100.0f < fAttack - fDefenseRating)



Above is from the toolset wiki "Combat h.nss" script.

I don't know what the RandomFloat is supposed to accomplish, or what its limits are, however.