131 réponses à ce sujet

[Yezdigerd]

SebastianDA wrote...
I don't really understand how so many see this differently as though they really had al that much to say in who this character is and what he ends up choosing to do.    

Shepard is fixed to large degree. He is space marine deeply concerned about the reaper threat. He has certain default characteristic like being a bad dancer, not accepting argument to authority when he believes himself right. You can't roleplay around this, you are playing as Shepard but you aren't Shepard. Shepard will join a paramilitary terrorist organization in ME2 no matter what you think about it. but this is consistent with Shepard from ME1 that will defy his lawful superiors desert and steal the Normandy.
Shepard never quits, never accept the reality other people imposes on him and finds a way.  This is the default Shepard's character. What we cannot change no matter what. Except Bioware changed the default in ME3 to appeaser and that creates a total player dissonance. "my shepard would never do that", which I think often mean the default Shepard would never do that.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 03 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[wright1978]

chemiclord wrote...


I guess I just don't get it.  Maybe you can "clarify" it for me.

I can understand being furious with Casey Hudson for pretty much outright lying about the content of the game... and if that had been my sole reason for buying it, I'd be furious too.

But I didn't listen to a word of that tool's promises, nor did I buy the game solely for them, and I think if everyone here was being honest, they weren't sold on the game by Hudson either.  They were going to buy it regardless.  It's an excuse to be angry, not a reason.

What don't you get. That people are disappointed they didn't get to carry on characterising their Shep in the final part of the trilogy as they had done in the previous 2.

Yeah i'll be wary of dev promises from now on. For instance i can roleplay anti-alliance my ass!

[slimgrin]

chemiclord wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It seems silly to lose your mind over a structure that you had absolutely no problem with the first two times.

You don’t understand what the difference is even with the explanations provided, and that’s fine.

Just please understand that a huge amount of people do see a difference, regardless of how illusory you think it is.

I guess I just don't get it.  Maybe you can "clarify" it for me.

I can understand being furious with Casey Hudson for pretty much outright lying about the content of the game... and if that had been my sole reason for buying it, I'd be furious too.

But I didn't listen to a word of that tool's promises, nor did I buy the game solely for them, and I think if everyone here was being honest, they weren't sold on the game by Hudson either.  They were going to buy it regardless.  It's an excuse to be angry, not a reason.

There's plenty of things to not like about ME3.  The ending (I refuse to give that abortion a plural) was atrocious; it looked like Mac Walters composed a first draft and called it good.

There are also a **** ton of bugs and continuity errors that deserve to be pointed out, as well as how little impact your ME2 squadmates have on ME3 (Hey Padok... I mean, Mordin.  I'm sorry, the both of you pretty much do the exact same thing, it's hard to tell you apart sometimes).

But there's a lot of issues that really... the fans have no one to blame but themselves for.

This entire discussion about the dialogue options?  Wanna know why its that way?  Because fans complained incessently about 4-5 choices that all wound up saying the same thing and breaking the flow of the conversation.  They then LOVED how it was handled in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Shockingly, Bioware gave fans more of it.  Less shockingly, fans now claim they hate it.

All that exploration that fans claimed they loved?  They sure had a funny way of showing it, considering they venomously hated every attempt by Bioware to do it.

The steady loss of RPG elements?  Yeah, also steadily cut because of fan complaints.

Blaming Bioware for doing what the fans wanted, then screaming at them afterwards for doing so... sorry, that doesn't make much sense to me.

Have you read a single post other than your own? And you claim what 'Bioware' fans want... really? Nice crystal ball dude.

Modifié par slimgrin, 03 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[MrAtomica]

OP, if you never took the opportunity to forge your own unique version of Shepard, then I have only one thing to say.

You missed out.

[wright1978]

Yezdigerd wrote...

SebastianDA wrote...
I don't really understand how so many see this differently as though they really had al that much to say in who this character is and what he ends up choosing to do.    

Shepard is fixed to large degree.

Snip

Yeah Shep's had a little trip to the vet, and now he doesn't chase the other puppies any more.

[TheGreenAlloy]

 Mine was, OP. Mine was.

[chemiclord]

slimgrin wrote...

Have you read a single post other than your own? And you claim what 'Bioware' fans want... really? Nice crystal ball dude.

Has nothing to do with my "claims."

The things that were cut were near universally due to fan complaints.  That's been Bioware's claim, and judging from the boards I had followed through all three games, that sounds about right.  Whether you specificially did or didn't agree with the masses doesn't change that these were things the masses supposedly wanted.

Maybe you think the masses are idiots.  I wouldn't disagree.  But them's the way it is.

As for your smug dismissal of "casuals," well... that's the audience major title games target; not "hardcore" gamers (which I'm guessing from your tone you consider yourself to be a part of).  As frustrating as I'm sure that is, I don't see how you should be surprised when a EA published game from a big name developer like Bioware is targeted towards the lowest common denominator, and would eventually shape into that sort of cookie-cutter experience.

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

 Mine was, OP. Mine was.

 

Really?  I'd love to see you show that copyright.

Oh wait... you didn't own Mass Effect or Commander Shepard?  Oh.  Then it wasn't yours, either.

Sorry.

Modifié par chemiclord, 03 juin 2012 - 10:46 .

[spirosz]

It's true though, a lot of people were saying LOTSB was better than ME2 itself, but overall a lot of the banter was during combat sequences, which was great, but we weren't expecting the entire ME3 game to consist of banter and auto-dialogue, that was just a poor choice of design on Bioware's part IMO.

[spirosz]

chemiclord wrote...

Oh wait... you didn't own Mass Effect or Commander Shepard?  Oh.  Then it wasn't yours, either.
Sorry.

I think you're misunderstanding the point.  

Modifié par spiros9110, 03 juin 2012 - 10:49 .

[chemiclord]

spiros9110 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Oh wait... you didn't own Mass Effect or Commander Shepard?  Oh.  Then it wasn't yours, either.
Sorry.

I think you're misunderstanding the point.  

I get the point.  I just think it's hogwash.

Just because you invest time and emotion into something, doesn't mean it's yours.  Say you fix up an abandoned house left by a deceased person, make it all nice and pretty over the course of a year... then the family of the deceased shows up with the title deed.  Guess how much your hard work and time spent matter to your ownership of that house?

About the same amount as your decisions at the end of Mass Effect 3.  Jack squat.

I also understand that many, many, many fans are upset because they feel that Bioware railroaded them and the character they had fashioned in their heads over the course of all these years.  But, ya know what?  That's been Bioware's right to do from the beginning.  It's THEIR story.  It's THEIR characters.  THEY can do whatever the hell they want with it, because it's THEIRS.  Not YOURS.

Is it a dick move?  Absolutely.  I have a nice long laundry list of beefs I have with the Mass Effect series from 1 to 3 myself.  I'm certainly not going to apologize for how spectacularly ****ty the series turned out at the end.  But at the end of the day, I'll defend Bioware's right to tell their story however they see fit, no matter how much fans don't like it.

[iSousek]

chemiclord wrote...

 THEY can do whatever the hell they want with it, because it's THEIRS.  Not YOURS.

Is it a dick move?  Absolutely.  I have a nice long laundry list of beefs I have with the Mass Effect series from 1 to 3 myself.  I'm certainly not going to apologize for how spectacularly ****ty the series turned out at the end.  But at the end of the day, I'll defend Bioware's right to tell their story however they see fit, no matter how much fans don't like it.

Yes and no. You move within the parameters of their character which were very wide if I might add. Shepard that shot Mordin in the back is not the same Shepard that didn't. Ofcourse it is their character but they are not the ones who shaped him completely. They've set the basic parameters so they could tell a certain story but everything else is you.

[NoUserNameHere]

'It's not Fallout, therefore it was never your Shepard. Deal with it.'

Brilliant leaps of logic, here in the general forum.

[chemiclord]

iSousek wrote...

Yes and no. You move within the parameters of their character which were very wide if I might add. Shepard that shot Mordin in the back is not the same Shepard that didn't. Ofcourse it is their character but they are not the ones who shaped him completely. They've set the basic parameters so they could tell a certain story but everything else is you.

And yet all those choices were designed by them.  Every option in that game was written, coded, and done before you ever got your hands on it.

The narrative was set, in its entirety, before you even popped that disc in your drive.

So no... none of it was you.  It was all theirs.

Modifié par chemiclord, 03 juin 2012 - 11:55 .

[NoUserNameHere]

chemiclord wrote...

iSousek wrote...

Yes and no. You move within the parameters of their character which were very wide if I might add. Shepard that shot Mordin in the back is not the same Shepard that didn't. Ofcourse it is their character but they are not the ones who shaped him completely. They've set the basic parameters so they could tell a certain story but everything else is you.

And yet all those choices were designed by them.  Every option in that game was written, coded, and done before you ever got your hands on it.

The narrative was set, in its entirety, before you even popped that disc in your drive.

So no... none of it was you.  It was all theirs.

You're point being... ?

[ItsTheTruth]

The biggest problem is that Shepard acts like a dumb US marine in ME3, saluting anything that moves and treating Hackett like he's a god or something. In ME1 for example you can refuse to do any mission for the Alliance, and tell the officer trying to inspect your ship to go to helll.

That's just one example of Shepard becoming dumber, taking away choice from the player, and all that to cater to the military FPS crowd, who falls asleep if they can't pretend to be elite commando ninjas.

[chemiclord]

NoUserNameHere wrote...
You're point being... ?

My point being...

That people complaining about Bioware stole "their story" away from them and stole "their Shepard" away from them are wrong.

Bioware can't steal something from you that was never yours to begin with.

[MrStoob]

Isn't this all rather dependent on how much you 'role play'?

Regardless of the decisions presented, 'my' Sheps have particular motivations which will decide which dialogue/actions to take.

[NoUserNameHere]

chemiclord 

My point being...

That people complaining about Bioware stole "their story" away from them and stole "their Shepard" away from them are wrong.

Bioware can't steal something from you that was never yours to begin with.

No one is debating wether Bioware made the damn game. 
Used to be they made games where Shepard had a wider array of possible characterization options. In ME3 you have 2. Options are narrower, therefore Shepard is less defined. This happens. It is a thing. Bioware did it. What's to debate?

[ItsTheTruth]

chemiclord wrote...

That people complaining about Bioware stole "their story" away from them and stole "their Shepard" away from them are wrong.

Bioware can't steal something from you that was never yours to begin with.

It is a RPG, you're supposed to be able to control Shepard and define his attitude to some degree; instead in the beginning of ME3 you watch a dumb US marine spout nonsense then take orders between explosions for 15 minutes.

[chemiclord]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

It is a RPG, you're supposed to be able to control Shepard and define his attitude to some degree; instead in the beginning of ME3 you watch a dumb US marine spout nonsense then take orders between explosions for 15 minutes.

I'd be kinda hard pressed to call Mass Effect an RPG, honestly.

Then again, I really don't consider MOST of the video games that call themselves RPGs to be such either.  You really don't create the character more than choose a handful of options... at best.  It is entirely up to the game's writers just how much rope they give you.  If they choose to give you a lot, great.  If they choose to give you little, that's their right too.

That's not an RPG to me... it's more akin to a Choose Your Own Adventure.

Is it a GOOD thing to suddenly turn the rope into a noose and wrap it around a players neck?  No.  It's in fact, quite stupid.  But hey, it's their right to do so.  Just like it's my right to never buy another one of their products ever again.  And as it stands, I won't be.

Modifié par chemiclord, 04 juin 2012 - 12:24 .

[ItsTheTruth]

chemiclord wrote...
That's not an RPG to me... it's more akin to a Choose Your Own Adventure.

Yeah that's Bioware games and the formula worked fine... until ME3 (or DA2 in fact).

It boggles the mind they chose to make Shepard more "canon" and give less choices to the player in the last part of a trilogy. It should be the other way around, if they don't have to worry about sequels the endings should have been completely different depending on the actions of "your" Shepard. Instead, ME1 with only two endings feels much more choose-your-own-adventure than ME3.

Modifié par ItsTheTruth, 04 juin 2012 - 12:38 .

[chemiclord]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

chemiclord wrote...
That's not an RPG to me... it's more akin to a Choose Your Own Adventure.

Yeah that's Bioware games and the formula worked fine... until ME3 (or DA2 in fact).

Well, here's the thing.

I don't see why it shouldn't have... at least, not in theory.

It really seems to boil down to the absolutely atrocious ending... people are so bitter and disappointed by it that it's cast this huge, fault-finding magnifying glass on everything before it.  I mean, hell, I've been reading fans starting to rip apart ME1, digging for plotholes and other stuff to get angry about.

And yes, I find that behavior inherently silly.

[ItsTheTruth]

chemiclord wrote...
It really seems to boil down to the absolutely atrocious ending... people are so bitter and disappointed by it that it's cast this huge, fault-finding magnifying glass on everything before it.  I mean, hell, I've been reading fans starting to rip apart ME1, digging for plotholes and other stuff to get angry about.

The thing is, there's no need to dig for plotholes in ME3, the story on its face is stupid and worse, it just feels so stupid when you are playing it, so you can only enjoy the game in patches. Video games don't need some complex and entirely consistent story, some simple good-versus-evil cliche plot works fine; but ME3 (just like DA2) hits you in the face with stupidity over and over.

For example, in most Bioware games you are told at one point "this is it", the endgame begins if you go to a certain place. Usually it seems logical (e.g the Star Forge in KOTOR), but ME3 can't even do that right! For me it was impossible to enjoy the ending long before I ever reached Earth.

[iSousek]

chemiclord wrote...

iSousek wrote...

Yes and no. You move within the parameters of their character which were very wide if I might add. Shepard that shot Mordin in the back is not the same Shepard that didn't. Ofcourse it is their character but they are not the ones who shaped him completely. They've set the basic parameters so they could tell a certain story but everything else is you.

And yet all those choices were designed by them.  Every option in that game was written, coded, and done before you ever got your hands on it.

The narrative was set, in its entirety, before you even popped that disc in your drive.

So no... none of it was you.  It was all theirs.

Please read again my original post. Pay attention to words ' their' and 'parameters'.

Modifié par iSousek, 04 juin 2012 - 01:02 .

[chemiclord]

iSousek wrote...

Please read again my original post. Pay attention to words ' their' and 'parameters'.

Yes, I read your original post.

"everything else is you."

What does that mean when the "everything else" is in fact "nothing?"

Modifié par chemiclord, 04 juin 2012 - 01:48 .