105 réponses à ce sujet

[fkirenicus]

For those who have played NWN2 OC, it has it failings. One NOT being the way Obsidian implemented the trial.
That is simply a marvellous piece of design - you can use the evidence you've collected for your innocence in an intelligent matter (stats play a part in dialog choices), and your social skills are crucial to get through getting the entire court on your side.

And then they destroy it all by forcing you to fight after all. Even though you win the trial, you have to fight a lobotomized goon. Damn, I was pissed when I found out.

As does DA in the Landsmeet, except that in this game the entire matter is forced - you can't bring all evidence against Loghain (at least I have only been able to bring up 2 matters before he butts in), you can't persuade Ceorlic to join you (even though he is disgusted to learn about Howe when you return to talk to Sighard), and something I've found in this my 2nd playthrough - if you attack Loghain, you get to fight him and all his goons. Even if you kill every single one of them, you STILL have to engage Loghain in a duel.

This is utter silly, IMO. The Landsmeet has learnt what kind of man Loghain is, and they even help you fight him and his goons (at least both Eamon and Alfstanna joined me in the fight against Loghain). But when the chantry woman says "stop this bloodshed!" they don't arrest Loghain, despite the fact that it's proven he
 - sold people into slavery
 - committed regicide by "omission" (fleeing the battlefield at Ostagar), and usurping the throne by more or less deposing his daughter
 - worked with Howe, a man that has tortured one noble's family (and I daresay if you play human noble you have a story of your own to add to it!)
- poisoned Arl Eamon to remove opposition
AND
- tried to kill the entire Landsmeet when the voting turned out to against him

The Landsmeet knows that this man is a traitor of the worst sort, and STILL you have to fight him in a duel.
It's like "this man has tried to kill us, we know; and yes, he tried to stage a coup at the Landsmeet. But you will still have to prove his guilt by defeating him in single combat".
I mean, seriously??

And of course, there's the matter that you can't settle the Alistair/Loghain matter properly, because YOU have to answer a question that Alistair in fact asks Riordan - and both answers are utterly feeble.

This playthrough probably ends at the Landsmeet. I immensely enjoy DA up to where I have finished the Alienage, after that it's a railroaded rollercoaster that ends far too abrupt for my liking.

Modifié par fkirenicus, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[Invalidcode]

Did you refuse the duel before? If you do the Arl, the nobles, Loghain all gave you reasons why you cannot turn down the duel. You can refuse the duel still, Alistair will do something about it. Rail is rail, at least you get some reason in-game.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually wnat happens at the Landsmeet is not uncommon throughout history. No matter what the charges or who sided with you many matters were solve by honorable single combat. The accused had the right to fight the accurser or his/her champion. The idea being if the accuser had right on his/her side the gods or fate would favor them to win. If the accusation was wrong the accuser would lose. The point being that the two forces would be of equal stength and skill would battle. This is why accuser or accused had the right to select a champion.

The same can be seen in the right of satisfaction which one knight (the one next to the dwarven merchant) will demand of your character.The knight thought he was correctly accusing your character of wrong doing. You settled the dispute in combat.

Notice that after you defeat the knight nothing else happens. His seconds leave stating that the knight had a good death. The issue has been decided.

Also by fighting him first in single comabt you prevent any other bloodshed and allow the gods or fate to decide the outcome.

[Adria Teksuni]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually wnat happens at the Landsmeet is not uncommon throughout history. No matter what the charges or who sided with you many matters were solve by honorable single combat. The accused had the right to fight the accurser or his/her champion. The idea being if the accuser had right on his/her side the gods or fate would favor them to win. If the accusation was wrong the accuser would lose. The point being that the two forces would be of equal stength and skill would battle. This is why accuser or accused had the right to select a champion.
The same can be seen in the right of satisfaction which one knight (the one next to the dwarven merchant) will demand of your character.The knight thought he was correctly accusing your character of wrong doing. You settled the dispute in combat.
Notice that after you defeat the knight nothing else happens. His seconds leave stating that the knight had a good death. The issue has been decided.
Also by fighting him first in single comabt you prevent any other bloodshed and allow the gods or fate to decide the outcome.

Cannot say it better, so won't try.

[fkirenicus]

Yes, I see your point if I choose the "correct" dialog options. I also know that this was not uncommon in medieval society - though up to a certain limit.

What my rant is about is that Loghain brings in a lot of goons, which Eamon and Alfstanna both fight against to save their own lives. The Landsmeet see for themselves that Loghain even when clearly outnumbered in the voting refuses to surrender peacefully, and instead tries to kill both his accusers and the other attendants of the Landsmeet.
This is high treason, and it is perfectly clear to the Landsmeet that the accusations against this man most likely are extremely well founded.

Pitting the Warden against him in single combat despite this ("we know he's wrong, and he has tried to kill us all, but you must fight him in single combat. If you lose, it means the Maker was on his side, and we should in fact be dead...").

No, I don't see any logic behind this outcome. A man that tried such a thing in medieval society and failed would not be granted such a right - at least I've never heard about such occurences - and: It's absurd.

Modifié par fkirenicus, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:04 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I have to agree. A traitor isn't exactly allowed to plead his case when he shows the evidence so fervently. And I was annoyed that I did all that detective (stabbing) work and didn't even get to present my full case. By all rights and effort, I should have been able to present an avalanche of guilt down on his head but instead I can only wiggle two or three bits at him.



I don't see the point of an honor duel in this situation. Accusations settled by honor duel is one thing and I am all for it. An honor duel to settle absolute guilt... Not so much.

[Kenshen]

The way I look at it is Loghain is still very well respected and considered a hero by most of the people of the land and have no knowledge of what he has done. On the eve of battle it wouldn't be wise to crush the hopes of the people and let them know the man they thought a hero was really a power hungry madman. Even if you kill him at the Landsmeet do you think word of his death was released to the public right away? I doubt it and I can't say I saw any hint that it had.

[Viglin]

fkirenicus wrote...

For those who have played NWN2 OC, it has it failings. One NOT being the way Obsidian implemented the trial.
That is simply a marvellous piece of design - you can use the evidence you've collected for your innocence in an intelligent matter (stats play a part in dialog choices), and your social skills are crucial to get through getting the entire court on your side.

And then they destroy it all by forcing you to fight after all. Even though you win the trial, you have to fight a lobotomized goon. Damn, I was pissed when I found out.

As does DA in the Landsmeet, except that in this game the entire matter is forced - you can't bring all evidence against Loghain (at least I have only been able to bring up 2 matters before he butts in), you can't persuade Ceorlic to join you (even though he is disgusted to learn about Howe when you return to talk to Sighard), and something I've found in this my 2nd playthrough - if you attack Loghain, you get to fight him and all his goons. Even if you kill every single one of them, you STILL have to engage Loghain in a duel.

This is utter silly, IMO. The Landsmeet has learnt what kind of man Loghain is, and they even help you fight him and his goons (at least both Eamon and Alfstanna joined me in the fight against Loghain). But when the chantry woman says "stop this bloodshed!" they don't arrest Loghain, despite the fact that it's proven he
 - sold people into slavery
 - committed regicide by "omission" (fleeing the battlefield at Ostagar), and usurping the throne by more or less deposing his daughter
 - worked with Howe, a man that has tortured one noble's family (and I daresay if you play human noble you have a story of your own to add to it!)
- poisoned Arl Eamon to remove opposition
AND
- tried to kill the entire Landsmeet when the voting turned out to against him

The Landsmeet knows that this man is a traitor of the worst sort, and STILL you have to fight him in a duel.
It's like "this man has tried to kill us, we know; and yes, he tried to stage a coup at the Landsmeet. But you will still have to prove his guilt by defeating him in single combat".
I mean, seriously??

And of course, there's the matter that you can't settle the Alistair/Loghain matter properly, because YOU have to answer a question that Alistair in fact asks Riordan - and both answers are utterly feeble.

This playthrough probably ends at the Landsmeet. I immensely enjoy DA up to where I have finished the Alienage, after that it's a railroaded rollercoaster that ends far too abrupt for my liking.

So how did you feel when the Arl went against the Landsmeet vote and started a riot.?
Cause thats what happen on my wifes playthrough...and

[robertthebard]

I have actually never had him start the fight when the majority of the landsmeet decided against him. Perhaps I chose the correct dialog options for it? I have had him try to execute Eamon and myself, which led to a big battle royal, and then the duel, but the Landsmeet found for him on that playthrough. I have had him call for the duel, and leave the terms up to the Landsmeet, but not the big battle, just the one on one, and when I kicked his king betraying butt, he said he was wrong about me, and that he had thought I was like Cailin, trying to play at war.

[Pimpmyvanagon]

I had the same issue with the Landsmeet ending as I did with the ending of Vermire in Mass Effect. For me the thing that bothered me most was being railroaded into a choice. In my mind, part of being a hero is that you can always at least TRY to Take A Third Option and I can't stand it when it feels like the game is artifically limiting your choices in order to force in drama.

[fkirenicus]

Viglin wrote...

So how did you feel when the Arl went against the Landsmeet vote and started a riot.?
Cause thats what happen on my wifes playthrough...and

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here.

If by "the Arl" you are referring to Arl Eamon, he doesn't incite a riot - he speaks out against Loghain, yes, but we know that several of those nobles in fact support you and the Arl's cause already (all those you have helped).

Are you saying that bringing the evidence against Loghain is as bad as him trying to commit mass murder at the Landsmeet?

Modifié par fkirenicus, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:44 .

[Jakia]

Actually, if most of the nobles vote in favor of Loghain, then yes, Arl Eamon will start fighting and it begins the same chaos that occurs when most nobles vote in favor of Alistair.



If 5/6 nobles vote for the Warden, the massive attacks will not happen, but a one-on-one dual will.

[Kinaori]

robertthebard wrote...

I have actually never had him start the fight when the majority of the landsmeet decided against him. Perhaps I chose the correct dialog options for it? I have had him try to execute Eamon and myself, which led to a big battle royal, and then the duel, but the Landsmeet found for him on that playthrough. I have had him call for the duel, and leave the terms up to the Landsmeet, but not the big battle, just the one on one, and when I kicked his king betraying butt, he said he was wrong about me, and that he had thought I was like Cailin, trying to play at war.

I was rather puzzled on a playthrough I had where it was 5-2 in my favor (or possibly 4-2) and they said that the Landsmeet had decided against me >_<  I was thoroughly confused.

[trh5001]

I actually liked the landsmeet and the endgame the only thing I didnt like was how long it took to get into the alienage despite getting quests incredibly early for the area.

[robertthebard]

Jakia wrote...

Actually, if most of the nobles vote in favor of Loghain, then yes, Arl Eamon will start fighting and it begins the same chaos that occurs when most nobles vote in favor of Alistair.

If 5/6 nobles vote for the Warden, the massive attacks will not happen, but a one-on-one dual will.

This is because Loghain pulls a Bhelen, and immediately calls for Eamon's and your own execution.  At this point, I'm fighting, I'm not going through all that drama just to be executed on the "eve of battle" as it were.

[Realmzmaster]

You say that Loghain is a traitor to his country. He states that everything he did was in defense of his country. He agreed to the slavery trade to raise money to build an army. He withdraw from the battle because he saw the battle was lost and best to salvage some of the remaining forces. He is not directly responsible for any torture (Howe is). He is reponsible for posioning the Arl, but he saw the Arl as threatening his daughter's position as Queen and would usurp his authority as regent.

I think Loghain defense is bs, but he is loved and regarded as a hero. The country is already in a civil war. The easiest way to bring it to a halt is to defeat him in honorable single combat. It is the easiest way to unify the country. Everyone has agreed to the outcome of the duel. Otherwise you still have all the loyal supporters of Loghain who will think it is a plot against him by the arls and grey wardens. Everyone falls in line.

[sleepy__head]

I agree with the OP. The existence of a duel totally negated the need to gather evidence. Why didn't Arl Eamon just told the player character to go straight to the landsmeet and call for a duel if evidences can be disregarded? Its not like they have plenty of time to waste while the darkspawns bear down on Denerim.



But more than that it sends the wrong signal to the players, telling them that it doesn't matter how much work they put in collecting evidences and gaining support, the game is forcibly scripted in such a way that you have to win by force.

[fkirenicus]

Jakia wrote...

Actually, if most of the nobles vote in favor of Loghain, then yes, Arl Eamon will start fighting and it begins the same chaos that occurs when most nobles vote in favor of Alistair.

If 5/6 nobles vote for the Warden, the massive attacks will not happen, but a one-on-one dual will.

Ah, OK. Haven't had the chance to get that to happen, as I'm "Easily Sidetracked" and do whatever I find that reminds me of a quest.
When Eamon urged me to get out and seek support from the nobles, I did so... So I guess I can't lose the vote at the Landsmeet, really.

But a massive fight will ensue, if you decide to fight ("attack") instead of accepting the duel - that option is still available if you get 5/6 votes in favor of the Wardens.

As I''ve said, as long as my character adheres to customs (if I choose the "let us settle this honorably"), I can accept that one has to fight this duel... But if you go for the "attack" dialog option, a massive fight occurs. Then, when Loghain loses after having to tried to kill the entire Landsmeet, I find it completely nuts that this duel takes place.

In fact it makes me wonder if not the nobles of Ferelden might as well stop breathing, since they're obviously blind to matters that concerns their own safety and well-being. Loghain has tried to murder them, and they put the entire matter at risk by sending the one that just saved them in single combat against him? It's utterly absurd!

Modifié par fkirenicus, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:13 .

[Vormaerin]

Err, you are complaining that they do not properly chastise Loghain if *you* launch an illegal attack on him and he brings in his guards to help him?



At no point was he trying to slaughter the whole Landsmeet. He was defending himself against your idiotic assault.

[HarlequinDream]

Vormaerin wrote...

Err, you are complaining that they do not properly chastise Loghain if *you* launch an illegal attack on him and he brings in his guards to help him?

At no point was he trying to slaughter the whole Landsmeet. He was defending himself against your idiotic assault.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

[soteria]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Err, you are complaining that they do not properly chastise Loghain if *you* launch an illegal attack on him and he brings in his guards to help him?

At no point was he trying to slaughter the whole Landsmeet. He was defending himself against your idiotic assault.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

How was it an idiotic assault?  The Landsmeet came out in more or less a tie, and he declared himself a victor and called for my execution.  That's not an illegal attack, that's self-defense.

[vocalemuse]

^ I agree, that's not an idiotic attack... more like an idiotic order by a self-proclaimed victor that calls for your self-defense.

Modifié par vocalemuse, 12 décembre 2009 - 05:07 .

[HarlequinDream]

soteria wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Err, you are complaining that they do not properly chastise Loghain if *you* launch an illegal attack on him and he brings in his guards to help him?

At no point was he trying to slaughter the whole Landsmeet. He was defending himself against your idiotic assault.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

How was it an idiotic assault?  The Landsmeet came out in more or less a tie, and he declared himself a victor and called for my execution.  That's not an illegal attack, that's self-defense.

"More or less a tie" being...? How many votes on either side?

[Harcken]

The problem isn't that logically, a trial by combat makes sense, or occurs historically; but that all that time you spent gathering evidence is for naught. I might have been semi fine with the landsmeet if it was like NWN2 and the trial was around 3-5 minutes of dialogue, where you got to present your evidence, piece by piece, and people actually came out for testimony, and were dealt questions.

[Vormaerin]

I'm pretty sure there are other options besides illegally attacking him in the middle of the Landsmeet. Even if there are not, he's certainly not threatened the lives of anyone other than you, Alistair, and Eamon. Who are legally traitors, since Loghain "proved" his case before the Landsmeet and his story has always been that the Gray Wardens led Cailen to his doom.



Loghain is entirely reasonable in using guards to prevent his own murder, given that it was no kind of duel. Merely a murderer and traitor rebelling against the Landsmeet's judgement.