105 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

Let's not forget, a 3-3 against an existing regent versus a casteless dwarf, ex-noble human, near-apostate, or elf rather leans in the regent's favor. Anora doesn't get a vote for some odd reason. She only gets a voice.

[Herr Uhl]

Anora is not a Bann, Teyrn or Arl?

[EricHVela]

She's a queen. A commoner queen, to boot.

[geoffsbg]

Korva wrote...

What is the point in gathering evidence and support? Yeah, "roleplaying". But it is extremely unsatisfying because it has no effect. It's another case of the "good" person who goes out of their way to help others getting screwed because the selfish jerkface who murders, extorts and plunders all he can gets the exact same outcome with zero negative consequences. Player effort has to matter. Player conduct has to matter, too.

I agree.  This last point is what gets me the most.  I was frustrated with the forced duel and incomprehensible vote, but its the fact that it really doesn't matter how you role-played through the first 90% of the game that bothers me.  So long as you help a couple nobles that you practically HAVE to help by default, and say the right things to the landsmeet, it doesn't matter if you've been a cold-hearted butcher the whole game through.  You can even 'extort' / demand a large amount of gold from a couple of them as a 'reward', and there's no effect on the outcome.  Likewise, if you have poured your heart and soul into being 'good' and compassionate, always refusing rewards, risking your life to help people, etc, you ultimately get the exact same landsmeet and endgame options so long as you save those same nobles, and say those same things. 

Say what you will about baldur's gate's 'reputation' system, it was far from perfect, but I was missing it in this game.  If not a point based reputation system, then something else, ANYTHING else, to keep tract of your conduct.  Where is my 'reward' for NOT accepting a reward?  And where is the penalty for being a scumbag?  Shouldn't someone as powerful and well connected as Loghain be aware of how you've been acting?  Why doesn't he call in some 'character witnesses' or whatever?  

Ultimately the only people that really respond to you differently based on your actions are your companions, and even there it's much more dependent on wether you did their 'quests' and gave them shiny presents or not.  I played through as a mad murderous mage, who practiced and openly praised blood magic, and yet I was generous with gifts b/c I valued the usefulness of my companions, so I was still on good terms with even Alistair.  Throwing a dagger into an unarmed and unsuspecting brother Genitivi's head in front of people like Leliana and Wynne got a much deserved and welcomed outcry of protest from them, and I lost a handful of approval with each, but back at camp that same night Wynne told me how proud the circle was to have me, and Leliana was saying the same things as ever.  If you lose too much approval, they open up their dialogue in a different way, but then you ultimately get the same conversation choices most of the time.  

I wandered way off tract from the landsmeet.  My point I guess was just that after playing through as mostly good a few times, I was excited about trying out a much darker path, yet disappointed to see that it didn't really make much of a difference, and the landsmeet is a great example of the game blatantly ignoring your roleplaying efforts. 

[kaimanaMM]

Ah the Landsmeet.

I think the Landsmeet is subtle, as someone pointed out, but alot of it is easy to miss.

You have to approach it with the mentality that you are going head to head with the Hero of Riverdane.  Loghain is a larger than life figure to Fereldens, he was King Maric's BFF, he was Cailan's General / Right Hand Man and he is one downright cunning bastard.  The burden of proof rests upon you, the accuser, not him.  Stick to what you CAN prove beyond a reasonable doubt, just like any trial and you will nail him to the wall despite how many times he tries to turn it back around on you.

I believe dueling Loghain one on one whether the big brawl happens or not is pretty reasonable.  If the big brawl happens you're called upon to end the bloodshed.  Understandable.  If it doesn't, you're called upon to defend your honor and show by force that you are the stronger candidate (which is as it should be if you're trying to put Alistair on the throne).  Ferelden isn't a very advanced place, it's still pretty barbaric when it comes right down to it, so it is natural to have to back up your words with action. Take a read through The Stolen Throne and you get a good feel for Ferelden and for Loghain.

I had the same issue with the Landsmeet ending as I did with the ending of Vermire in Mass Effect. For me the thing that bothered me most was being railroaded into a choice. In my mind, part of being a hero is that you can always at least TRY to Take A Third Option and I can't stand it when it feels like the game is artifically limiting your choices in order to force in drama.

This is how I feel the Landsmeet gets a bit heavyhanded.  There comes a point where you really only have three things to say and they are all choices made for you, not by you.  But, you have to move the story along somehow. 

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[EricHVela]

This feedback should help them tailor stuff for the next game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

K, head over to the Mod Wishlist thread on General Gameplay discussion and post on how to change the Landsmeet. What new convo options and consequences you'd like.



Let's see if we can make this happen.





EDIT: I get a 4-2 vote and Loghian still declares Eamon and me traitors.

[Realmzmaster]

The one point that is being overlooked is that Loghain still commands the respect of a very sizable army. By winning the Landsmeet you have the backing of the nobles, but not Loghain's army. If you attack Loghain outright you will be seen as dishonorable. Your character has not been designated by the Landsmeet to carry out an execution. Loghain has not attacked you. You better believe that the word of the attack will get out, even if you kill all of Loghain's guard. Unless you plan on killing every servant or other non essential at the Landsmeet.

The army of course will view that as reason enough to believe that the arls are in cahoots in with the Grey Wardens to bring down the Hero of Riverdale, their illustrious leader.

The one on one duel is seen as the honorable way to settle the dispute. If the army hears their leader was slain in a duel that will be the end of any dissention. The gods or fate have decided the outcome.

If you lose the Landsmeet, then your accusation against Loghain are considered false. You did not prove your case. You have committed High treason against the Queen's regent. Loghain has every right to call for your execution. Of course you are going to defend yourself. The head of the Chantry will call for an end to the bloodshed. But again nothing is completely decided. It again falls to a one on one duel. The Landsmeet is just to prove Loghain guilt. The arls do not appear to have the right to order his execution, only the Queen does which is not likely to happen.

But if you lose in a one on one duel the victor of the duel decides the fate of the defeated.

[T-Kay]

DA:O fails worse at other things. This part was acceptable.

[kevinwastaken]

I expected more from the confrontation with Loghain and in that respect the Landsmeet failed to deliver. I wanted to be able to expose him, ruin his reputation, and have him laid bare as a traitorous thug but alas none of that comes to pass.



I think this part of the game was "ok." It slowed down my enjoyment of the plot but didn't really diminish my overall experience of DAO.

[fkirenicus]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Loghain has not attacked you.

Except perhaps for betraying the Grey Wardens to their deaths at Ostagar and sending an incompetent elf with a most unconvincing spanish accent to assassinate the two Grey Wardens who survived said betrayal, no ser...

[fkirenicus]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You better believe that the word of the attack will get out, even if you kill all of Loghain's guard. Unless you plan on killing every servant or other non essential at the Landsmeet.

I'm sorry, but I think it's far more sporting to let Loghain to slaughter innocents. Or sell them into slavery. Or let his bootlicking lackey torture them, whatever his whim today dictates.
As I've said: In my games (Anora and all of the Landsmeet except Ceorlic on my side) Loghain is the one that brings the fight "outside our differences" - him and his goons attack those who have sided with me. That doesn't strike me a particularly "honorable", and that's why I fail to see why the nobles of Ferelden would bother in giving him the courtesy of having a way out of his treachery and mass murder by forcing the Grey Warden to fight him one on one.

My point is simple: I can understand the logic behind the duel if you play it "the way the designers expect you to" - i.e. accepting the honorable duel. 

When they they give you the opportunity to a group fight against Loghain and his stormtroopers however - and he and his goons attack the other nobles at the Landsmeet - that logic fails.

As I've said, that the nobles of Ferelden should dare the risk that Loghain has them executed for being "traitors! Which of you stood against the Orlesian emperor..." if my character loses that fight - when all Loghain's goons are dead and he himself lies (well, he's of course still standing...) on the brink of death is something I find most unlikely. Doing so could - and probably would, though of course we don't know for sure - be most harmful for their continous breathing.
Unless of course they are mad as "Mad" Jack McMad, the winner of last year's "mister madman" competition, the lot of them.

I say it again: If you fight Loghain and his goons, it is still possible to have same outcome that you have from the single combat duel - i.e. he could surrender, and let the same dialog as for the end of the single combat duel ("I accept your surrender" or "you'll die for what you've done") trigger the series of events that follow. 

I usually spare Loghain, as I find him both a better fighter than Alistair, and of course he's handy for picking the shortest straw when Archdemon goes down. AND though I have not read the books about him and Maric, I have gathered that much that he IS a hero, and I feel he DOES deserve to redeem himself.

But having to fight him in single combat when it's both completely illogical and unnecessary I find, well... Ridiculous. 

Modifié par fkirenicus, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:26 .

[Realmzmaster]

fkirenicus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Loghain has not attacked you.

Except perhaps for betraying the Grey Wardens to their deaths at Ostagar and sending an incompetent elf with a most unconvincing spanish accent to assassinate the two Grey Wardens who survived said betrayal, no ser...

Except the nobles do not know those facts. Everything at Ostagar is seen as conjucture. The assassin is hired by Howe with Loghain's consent, but who is going to believe the word of an assassin that you let live? The assassin most definitely cannot testify if you killed him. Your attack will be seen as dishonorable by the nobles. Your character knows what happened the nobles do not.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[Tamyn]

In one of my runs, I got all the nobles (including Vaughan) but the bald guy with the cracking voice to support me, but when Anora comes in and betrays me, suddenly I have "lost". She speaks against me and then the nameless group on the ground floor shouts that they support Loghain. Is she really that popular that the words of all those other nobles mean nothing?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Tamyn wrote...

In one of my runs, I got all the nobles (including Vaughan) but the bald guy with the cracking voice to support me, but when Anora comes in and betrays me, suddenly I have "lost". She speaks against me and then the nameless group on the ground floor shouts that they support Loghain. Is she really that popular that the words of all those other nobles mean nothing?

Yes.

[Arijharn]

sleepy__head wrote...

I agree with the OP. The existence of a duel totally negated the need to gather evidence. Why didn't Arl Eamon just told the player character to go straight to the landsmeet and call for a duel if evidences can be disregarded? Its not like they have plenty of time to waste while the darkspawns bear down on Denerim.

But more than that it sends the wrong signal to the players, telling them that it doesn't matter how much work they put in collecting evidences and gaining support, the game is forcibly scripted in such a way that you have to win by force.

And I totally agree with you. It therefore means you could of just followed Morrigan's advice right from Lothering and just said some words to the effect of Honor Duel, and nip this whole silly civil war business in the bud.

[Fishy]

Stupid ass Politic ..

[Realmzmaster]

Arijharn wrote...

sleepy__head wrote...

I agree with the OP. The existence of a duel totally negated the need to gather evidence. Why didn't Arl Eamon just told the player character to go straight to the landsmeet and call for a duel if evidences can be disregarded? Its not like they have plenty of time to waste while the darkspawns bear down on Denerim.

But more than that it sends the wrong signal to the players, telling them that it doesn't matter how much work they put in collecting evidences and gaining support, the game is forcibly scripted in such a way that you have to win by force.

And I totally agree with you. It therefore means you could of just followed Morrigan's advice right from Lothering and just said some words to the effect of Honor Duel, and nip this whole silly civil war business in the bud.

No, sorry, you have to be able to get to Loghain. You have no idea where he is? You can only assume he is at the palace. He could be out leading his troops or hold up in a safe place. You would not get through his men to issue the challenge. The knights in the city are ready to kill you in honor duels. The guards will take you out before you get to him especially at the level Morrigan makes the suggestion.  The Landsmeet gives you the perfect opportunity to confront him, because he must appear to answer the challenge of Arl Eamon and you are somewhat under the Arl's protection.  He already tries to keep you bottled up by having you arrested. (Where you perform a prison break, are rescued or kill everyone trying to arrest you.) Morrigan suggestion is nice, but it requires you know where is Loghain.

[tmp7704]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Except the nobles do not know those facts. Everything at Ostagar is seen as conjucture.

Which is rather far-fetched when you consider the Circle of Magi was made aware about the betrayal at Ostagar by survivors who returned from the fight soon after the battle happened, and there it was good enough to throw a wrench in both Uldred's and Loghain's plans. Yet at the Landsmeet no one knows anything.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem is the Circle of Magi had it's own problems. All the mage survivors returned to the tower. Once the tower problems started the templars were not letting anyone out of the tower and would not believe anything the lower mages said.Which is the reason Wynne was in the tower. The templar commander had to hear of it from the first enchanter himself that everything was under control. It seems that Uldred made his move right after the survivors' return. No word left the tower.

[Taritu]

It does seem very railroaded, and having to fight no matter what is kind of lame. I don't like the influence system in DAO, honestly, and would prefer a reputation system. You can get away with almost anything and your followers will swallow it, and the decisions you make the in the real world have no consquences, except if you pickpocket people in Denerim, for which the penalty is apparently being attacked by 20 odd suicidal guardsmen who don't even ask you to surrender first. (ie. a complete over-reaction to a petty crime.)

[geoffsbg]

Taritu wrote...

It does seem very railroaded, and having to fight no matter what is kind of lame. I don't like the influence system in DAO, honestly, and would prefer a reputation system. You can get away with almost anything and your followers will swallow it, and the decisions you make the in the real world have no consquences, except if you pickpocket people in Denerim, for which the penalty is apparently being attacked by 20 odd suicidal guardsmen who don't even ask you to surrender first. (ie. a complete over-reaction to a petty crime.)

Is that why those guards attack you??  Huh.  I had that happen toward the end with a warrior that had been 99% 'good', and for the life of me I couldn't understand what those guards were talking about.  But looking back, I think I did have Leliana pick pocket a few people in the market one time WAY back toward the beginning of the game when I needed money.  They don't charge you with any specific crime at all, so you have no idea what they're talking about. 

That makes my earlier point even more valid.  It doesn't matter a whole lot if you're a scumbag or a 'hero' type.  You can go out of your way to be a hero to everyone you meet but the moment you pick a pocket you are at risk of being summarily put to death by a roving band of executioners.  Even if you also happen to be the Teryn of Highever, traveling with King Maric's only living heir, and the two of you are the ONLY grey wardens in a country in the middle of a blight - you are both put to death for picking a pocket?  Not only does that ignore how you've been roleplaying, it just doesn't make any sense. 

In my whole play through with my mad murderous mage, no one ever tried to exact justice on me in any way.  But I see now that was because my mad murderous mage didn't pick any pockets.....  ???  

[menasure]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Tamyn wrote...

In one of my runs, I got all the nobles (including Vaughan) but the bald guy with the cracking voice to support me, but when Anora comes in and betrays me, suddenly I have "lost". She speaks against me and then the nameless group on the ground floor shouts that they support Loghain. Is she really that popular that the words of all those other nobles mean nothing?

Yes.

she might be popular but she litterally admits she switched sides in public after the accusations of kidnapping. that should ring a bell even for them .
i am ok with the whole duel concept but the numbers for support are not clear while they should be ... was that not the prime reason why you choose the side of Earl Eamon, because he is supposed to be a political expert? is he really going to say: right let us walk into the arms of the lion because you managed to get the support of  almost none of the nobles? that makes me wonder which side he is on lol.

what i also never figured out is why you have to gather your allies for an army before the landsmeet. so i had an army, even a private one in some cases and yet i decide to just walk into hostile territory under conditions i have no controll about with a good chance to loose ... i might as well decide to use them in some way against Loghain or at least use them to guarantee my safety at the landsmeet. one might even think about roman dictators ... win the capital, win the power ...
if only because you have no way to simply give yourself up and unite Ferelden in a more logical way: by giving yourself up to Loghain because he is already in charge, he has armies of his own and if there is a way to unite those with your own armies then you have accomplished what matters the most for a grey warden: a real fighting chance against the blight.

if a grey warden cares that much about his own life then you might as well come forward and tell Loghain why the grey wardens HAVE to be involved to fight the archdemon and he would have no other choice but to allow them to fight the demon or doom everyone else again ... Loghain makes some mistakes but he can not be not THAT stupid. imo supporting Earl Eamon and or Alistair and being a warden are 2 completely separate things but the story assumes it is not.

Modifié par menasure, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

menasure wrote...

she might be popular but she litterally admits she switched sides in public after the accusations of kidnapping. that should ring a bell even for them .
i am ok with the whole duel concept but the numbers for support are not clear while they should be ... was that not the prime reason why you choose the side of Earl Eamon, because he is supposed to be a political expert? is he really going to say: right let us walk into the arms of the lion because you managed to get the support of  almost none of the nobles? that makes me wonder which side he is on lol.

what i also never figured out is why you have to gather your allies for an army before the landsmeet. so i had an army, even a private one in some cases and yet i decide to just walk into hostile territory under conditions i have no controll about with a good chance to loose ... i might as well decide to use them in some way against Loghain or at least use them to guarantee my safety at the landsmeet. one might even think about roman dictators ... win the capital, win the power ...
if only because you have no way to simply give yourself up and unite Ferelden in a more logical way: by giving yourself up to Loghain because he is already in charge, he has armies of his own and if there is a way to unite those with your own armies then you have accomplished what matters the most for a grey warden: a real fighting chance against the blight.

if a grey warden cares that much about his own life then you might as well come forward and tell Loghain why the grey wardens HAVE to be involved to fight the archdemon and he would have no other choice but to allow them to fight the demon or doom everyone else again ... Loghain makes some mistakes but he can not be not THAT stupid. imo supporting Earl Eamon and or Alistair and being a warden are 2 completely separate things but the story assumes it is not.

Eh, I think the armies are yours in the sense that they will follow your leadership in the fight against the darkspawn, but have no willingness to fight in Ferelden's civil war.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:55 .

[menasure]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

menasure wrote...

she might be popular but she litterally admits she switched sides in public after the accusations of kidnapping. that should ring a bell even for them .
i am ok with the whole duel concept but the numbers for support are not clear while they should be ... was that not the prime reason why you choose the side of Earl Eamon, because he is supposed to be a political expert? is he really going to say: right let us walk into the arms of the lion because you managed to get the support of  almost none of the nobles? that makes me wonder which side he is on lol.

what i also never figured out is why you have to gather your allies for an army before the landsmeet. so i had an army, even a private one in some cases and yet i decide to just walk into hostile territory under conditions i have no controll about with a good chance to loose ... i might as well decide to use them in some way against Loghain or at least use them to guarantee my safety at the landsmeet. one might even think about roman dictators ... win the capital, win the power ...
if only because you have no way to simply give yourself up and unite Ferelden in a more logical way: by giving yourself up to Loghain because he is already in charge, he has armies of his own and if there is a way to unite those with your own armies then you have accomplished what matters the most for a grey warden: a real fighting chance against the blight.

if a grey warden cares that much about his own life then you might as well come forward and tell Loghain why the grey wardens HAVE to be involved to fight the archdemon and he would have no other choice but to allow them to fight the demon or doom everyone else again ... Loghain makes some mistakes but he can not be not THAT stupid. imo supporting Earl Eamon and or Alistair and being a warden are 2 completely separate things but the story assumes it is not.

Eh, I think the armies are yours in the sense that they will follow your leadership in the fight against the darkspawn, but have no willingness to fight in Ferelden's civil war.

at the very least my werewolves army was a private army and they make it very clear that you are the one commanding them. as for the others ... sure they are based on the treaties but since you practically gave their superiors their power i think they would be willing to give you some support besides against the blight. you even see that happen during travels.